Just a quick one have had a strange conversation with someone about flat coats who has described them as strong minded dogs can be difficult and at times agressive.
Not a description I recognize in  any flat coat I have met, having already owned one and about to get another.
Exhuberhant boisterous and puppy like even when grown yes

What do others think ?

aggresive?

as in difficult with other dogs 

Strong minded? definatly not,
willing to please, but often let down by owners? Yes.
Some people buy flatcoats because they like the look of them, like most dogs they need to be guided in the right direction with regards to training ect. if you dont want a dog that is up for anything, anytime, then this is poss not the dog for you.
I have owned flatcoat since 1981 and love them.
Aggressive? as in all breeds you will get the odd aggressive dog. but on the whole as with most breeds, correct socialization training when young teaches the dog how to be around other dogs.  Spend time getting to know the mother and father and see how they behave around other dogs, (not just the dogs they live with)  Too often this breed ends up with the wrong owner.

They can be strong minded, extremely so if you allow it to develop but it is more of a ' I want to stay here and sniff a while, you go and do your own thing and I'll catch up', than being too difficult. They are generally not aggresive but as with most adolecent dogs they will try and get pushy but it usually passes, although I have one that hates the neighbours labrador and if he sees him in his area goes crazy to get to him. If he has managed to get to him though, they only have a quick scuffle with no more than a slobbery neck resulting. I have three entire boys all living together with an entire lab, OK so pup is only 16 weeks, but they all get on great.
I suppose if the person you spoke to has had a bad experience they are maybe assuming they are all like that, they are not.

Thats more like the description Tadog of fcrs I have met. I have owned one ,willing to please yes , up for anything ,in the case of josie up for anything if it was with me  she was usually not far from my feet
Hope she wasnt an exception to the rule, dont think so having done loads of research this year and met some good breeders and there dogs.

Let down by their owners I hope not here . I want to do obedience and try showing as well as the usual stuff you do with dogs and still have 2 other dogs
I was just astounded atthe description I know that any dog can have difficult traits but I wouldnt have described the fcr as it was described as general description so wanted to know from the real fcr people if I was wrong.

> as in difficult with other dogs

I have a Flatcoat who lives with 14 Labradors... difficult... no...

I can only compare my boy with Labs...

Boistrous when he wants to be (labs also)
Velcro boy  =  loves to be my constant companion (Labs, check what I am up to and if no food involved, go back to what they were doing)
Sensitive - yes, responds wonderfully to gentle handling, he does get upset if I scream at the Labs to "Pack it in" and comes for cuddles to make ME feel better :-)
Socialising at Pet obedience classes - a wonderful boy... we have a rather mouthy, noise Malamute who has taken to him and he sits and gets his ears fiddled with from the Mal :-)

He does make some strange throaty gurgling noises when he carries his teddy bear (almost everywhere) but it's not a growl.. I would not know how to describe it except canine chatter...

After having Raymond I will definately have another Flatcoat, although I said he would be my only one... (when the time is right ;-) )

now this is more how I would describe them folks and how I want to be owned again

I would not describe a flatcoat as aggressive. I know of one who was attacked by another dog and now runs a mile when he sees anything resembling that dog. Equally I know of another whose reaction is to growl first and watch for a reaction. Flatcoats can be "full on" with other dogs hence the possibility that other dogs might not like this and react, but mostly they are velcro dogs with people being the centre of their world. They are still very much a working breed and as such do have to have a nice steady nature otherwise they could not be taken shooting.

I would suggest you visit the flatcoat benches at Crufts and especially the Gamekeepers rings, (where one judge is a Flatcoat owner and breeder) and also the breed championship show in April that way you will see lots of flatcoats all together.

They are strong minded which does not always make them popular. Many new flatcoat owners don't realise what they are taking on and try to treat them like labs or goldens (see KayCs post) As working gundogs they work in a different way too. If you like a working border collie for it's intelligence levels and understand that if not mentally stretched a collie will find it's own mischief, well apply that thought to a flatcoat and add an extra dose of "it has a need to be mentally occupied" and then you can begin to understand how to work with one.

Many new flatcoat owners don't realise what they are taking on and try to treat them like labs or goldens >

have to admit to being guilty of that :( i thought "i've got a chocolate lab, they cant be any more boisterous than that" wow i was in for a learning curve lol. however, i wont be having another lab!! the flatcoat is such a magical breed that i am so glad and honored to be a part of. As has been said, you get the odd temperament issue in all breeds but i would certainly not have said they are aggresive, mine can however be incredibly vocal and barks at her people for attention (also at the nextdoor neighbours for a quick stroke) then gums your sleeves to death lol, she also "talks" which could be confused with a growl to the untrained ear but believe me its not. my poor friends rottie always has my girl attached to her ears licking them furiously while they trot along side by side :)

I have only known one FCR who was aggressive and he was a horribly aggressive boy, he was knocked down by a car though so had a quick demise!   

One of mine is very sensitive and barks at the slightest thing, but aggressive? No way! He follows me everywhere with a teddy in his mouth, making 'Chewbacca' noises, and his tail never stops wagging. The other one is really laid back and calm, has been stuck in the house all week on vet's orders and just sleeps! He makes strange grumbly noises in his throat, but we call it talking, it's certainly not growling!

I don't actually see why people think they're difficult or overly boisterous, I've really only had cross breeds before and just treat each dog as an individual, not think 'oh, it's a FCR, it'll be like this or that'  - I just accept both mine the way they are, and they are very different, but both lovely! We are definitely converted to the breed and will have more.

Tarn is very stubborn I suppose, so I'll agree with the strong minded, but I don't know any aggressive ones.

Most good FCR breeders will invite you to visit their homes to meet their dogs before you buy one. I had a family visit mine and we went out over the field and after that they decided the high energy FCR was not for them so they bought a much quieter breed. Another couple came and did not end up with a flatcoat because they had no idea that they will lick everything in sight and they realised they could not live with that.

Being completely honest and unbaised (who Moi :-)  It took me 6 years or research and chatting to owners and breeders, before I finally got my Flatcoat... I first met the Flatcoat 1st hand when I was doing gundog training with the URC with Tia, and one owner brought 3 with him... I fell in love with them then and gave myself 5years to research and find the right lines and breeder for me... It actually took me 6years...

From the day I brought my Flatcoat home, I have been amazed and amused at how they behave, very different from my Labs... They are worlds apart..  They do gurgle and chunter (I love the Chewbacca description.. it fits perfectly)   They are very much a velcro dog... they hate being left on their own, even for a short period. They demand human companionship... They are intense, but very sensitive.  They are funny, clownlike but highly intelligent.  They can be very 'in your face' .  ... They love to snuggle, and I do mean snuggle, not just lie at your feet or beside you on the sofa... They simply wish to please...

Working, or at least in training... He is so responsive and keen and a little over eager (but thats down to training not the dog) he is steady to the gun.. poor wee lad was shot over at just 12 weeks and didn't blink.   I still find myself stiffling a giggle when he points ... (ps... I never knew Flatcoats pointed)

My only regret... I waited 6years :-)

How could anybody not love flattie kisses? You can't bend down in our house without getting a flattie tongue in your ear (or one in each ear if you're in the wrong place, lol!).

> I still find myself stiffling a giggle when he points ... (ps... I never knew Flatcoats pointed)

And it is definitely not a poor sore paw... lol You'll find the pointing useful on a shoot, I do.

Anything in reach and it has dog slobber! lol Know exactly what you mean about the ears. When Arthur was at Crufts to his great delight there was a big group of students all sat on the floor, he was in there and lickng like crazy so fast I doubt many escaped!

Just to say I have decided that flat coats are the breed for me. I have had one before who was everthing I wanted in a dog. Having followed her with my second gsd another breed I love have decided that I need a flat coat in the house again.I have followed shows around this year and gone back to the orignal breeder who is also a crufts judge although doesnt breed any more. She has pointed me in the direction of a couple of very good  people who have similar lines to my first dog. Have also a costed people about their dogs all over the place. I was just stunned at the description by the person I was talking to about fcr as they were not generally traits I had found in  mine or any I had met. Pleased to hear that generally my opinions were correct.  
As I said I d intend to do something more than jsut take my fcr out for a walk and although I know they are bositrous and licky I also found mine was grat to train and loved everyone dogs and people a like and I know its not for every one but I like the velcro dog trait even if it does mean getting out of bed in the morning can be tricky. I already have a gsd that sleeps next to mybed .

> I know its not for every one but I like the velcro dog trait even if it does mean getting out of bed in the morning can be tricky.

Absolutely! If you want an aloof, independent dog - get a cat, lol! There's nothing like a flattie head on your shoulder, snoring while you try to watch tv, or being pinned under the duvet by one on your legs and the other with his head on your pillow! And the way they greet you when you've just been outside to the bin, because of course if you'd only been out of the room or to the toilet they'd have been with you! My two follow me into the downstairs loo then have to reverse out, they really don't like me going anywhere without them, but that's what I love about them.

I've only had a fcr/gsd x - but - what a dog!  He gave me a love of both breeds but I can't work out which bits fit which breed [reminiscent of doodles/pooh dogs??].  intelligent, trainable, gentle, sensitive, agile, the list of his attributes goes on.
I have read that other dogs find reading the body language of all black dogs difficult [Turid Rugrass 'On talking terms with dogs'  I think] this could make dog on dog communication a problem. 

Mine have always been convinced there is a back way out of the bathroom, so must accompany me! My experience over 14 years with this lovely breed, has always been positive.

Lively and strong-minded,yes and they are certainly not the breed for everyone. Beautiful,happy, loving dogs. My lovely old girl, who sadly I lost  last year, used to rush up to our vet in the surgery or if we met him in the village, he would bend to greet her and both paws would be round his neck while his ears got a good cleaning! He loved her. I have never had the misfortune to meet an aggressive Flatcoat.

> Absolutely! If you want an aloof, independent dog - get a cat, lol! There's nothing like a flattie head on your shoulder, snoring while you try to watch tv, or being pinned under the duvet by one on your legs and the other with his head on your pillow! And the way they greet you when you've just been outside to the bin, because of course if you'd only been out of the room or to the toilet they'd have been with you! My two follow me into the downstairs loo then have to reverse out, they really don't like me going anywhere without them, but that's what I love about them.

LOL best description I have heard of what it is like to live with one! Shut them n a room for even a few seconds then go back into the room and you get greeted as though you had been away on a world tour! Peter Bedford said to me "You are never alone with a flatcoat" and he is right you aren't they don't let you out of their sight.

> My lovely old girl, who sadly I lost  last year, used to rush up to our vet in the surgery or if we met him in the village, he would bend to greet her and both paws would be round his neck while his ears got a good cleaning! He loved her. I have never had the misfortune to meet an aggressive Flatcoat.

Yes and they never forget their friends. One I knew was in the ring at Crufts, suddenly he spotted a friendly face he knew and jumped right over the rows of chairs with people sat on them to go and lick his buddy John.

Hope its not the same dog I knew, he was knocked down with a car!

(ps... I never knew Flatcoats pointed)

My bitch goes on point when we are working. she is the only one of my three that does. comes in handy!

Mine have always been convinced there is a back way out of the bathroom, so must accompany me!

Flatcoat owners arent allowed to go to the loo on their own, something bad may happen they need to join you, AND you must leave the door open if you are in the bath, bathtime is good if you have a bubble bath! what fun!

> (ps... I never knew Flatcoats pointed)
>
> My bitch goes on point when we are working. she is the only one of my three that does. comes in handy!

It will forever be a standing joke between Polly and myself... Polly was asking for an update of Raymond,(Polly owns his litter sister) and I was telling her about me calling Raymond a wimp... holding his paw up in the snow (blush)  I assumed he was having difficulty with the severe weather up here.. when Polly told me that he was pointing..

His walk this morning was interesting, although he doesn't point much, this morning was full of noises in the copse... each cackle brough him to a halt and point, he had no idea what he was pointing at lol... but he will get there...

He is just so much fun to be with :-)

Just reading your posts I cant wait for my fcr to join us. Please bear with me for all the daft questions I will be asking in the future with an extra furrie friend in the house. Advice greatfully received

aww, loving all the descriptions.  Mine makes these strange noises when he brings u something too lol.  makes me want another one:)

Henry was my first dog (of my own) and i can honestly say its the best decision i ever made. love him to bits

My bitch goes on point when we are working. she is the only one of my three that does. comes in handy is that Noof's daughter?   He used to point, and so do his daughters that we have!

Think everybody else has said it - they are simply the best for owners who can match their temperament!

Yes, ours got to the loo with us, and if I need to sit down while outside, they get quite alarmed and mob round me in case I have a problem......serious velcro...

The only thing that might be misconstrued as aggressive is that they will on occasion go bouncing up to other dogs with a 'woof', which could be misunderstood.

Jo

Raymond's sire points and all of mine have pointed while out shooting. I had one we took rough shooting and if she suddenly looked up at the sky you could guarantee that gamebirds were going from that direction, even though at that moment we could neither see or nor her them. I have never known one that doesn't point, and even if they get it wrong as babes they all learn it quick enough once they have been out shooting a couple of times.

> Hope its not the same dog I knew, he was knocked down with a car!

If his name began with R and ended in e, it may well be, owner has his litter sister too!

not the same, got me wondering now!

> (Labs, check what I am up to and if no food involved, go back to what they were doing)
>

Sounds like the Elkhounds I live with.

All these posts have been making me laugh, I'm sure the others at work think I'm nuts :)

Agree with everything that's been said and although they are not for the fainthearted, to me they are the best dogs in whole world.  We have a spaniel bitch (who we got by accident when we were looking for a flatcoat male!!!!!) and I love her to bits but there is nothing like a flatcoat male.  We're on our third and I can't imagine life without one.

These posts have been making me laugh too and I'm really quite amazed at how alike in nature flatcoats and gordons must be :-D
Treacle talks to us all the time - a wuffly grumble - most definitely not a growl nor a setter wooowoooowooo, just making conversation :-D Our PBGV puppy hangs off her all the time and never a cross word from her, I don't think she has an aggressive bone in her body :-)

> not the same, got me wondering now!

Well, today I learned something about the owner and the replacement FCR for the one that was knocked down!     He has the sister of the one that was knocked down and he's let her be mated by the replacement FCR, who I don't think is a year old yet.  Bitch has been scanned in-whelp - 3 to 6 puppies at a vet in Kirriemuir (You may know which one?) - neither dog nor bitch is eye tested, hip scored, elbow scored, patella checked etc.  and this is a 'supposedly' educated (Ex-doctor) owner!  No pre-bookings, he is intending on keeping 'at least 2' and if he comes anywhere near me looking for advice, he'll wish he hadn't!

The problem is, he has seen the breeders of his dogs (Stranraer way, I think) start with a couple, breed a few litters, buy in some more, pups sell and he has said 'they have a nice bit of pocket money coming in there' so he obviously wants to do the same.

My Blood Pressure should now be back to normal level :rolleyes:

Thats make my blood boil. I think that I  know the Stranraer breeder. cant think of the owner that is breeding though. will have another think....

I'm loving all this information on the breed. They sound like a wonderful breed of dog to have around, entertaining to say the least :-)
FF I look forward to meeting your new arrival when she comes ...

oh yes suej without a doubt needs lots of socialisation may need alittle trip to the sea :) roll on april and fingers crossed she has at least a couple of bitches, even decided on a name already shhh!