Ok, my mum has a gsd and a lurcher, her next door neighbour has a jrt. Mums gsd and the jrt hate each other with a passion- but can never access each other through the fence.

Earlier today whilst out walking with both dogs of lead (the gsd happily minding her own carrying a ball) the jrt appeared in the bushed near them- it started barking aggressively at the gsd and before either my mum or the jrt owner had chance to react, the dogs met and, well it was a serious fight. My mums dog had the jrt on its back and punctured its shoulder and ripped a gash under its armpit. In the commotion the lurcher had run in on the action but got hurt so instantly backed off.

The jrt has been at the vets all afternoon, he was too aggressive to let the vets get a proper look so had to be sedated, wounds cleaned and stitched and on AB's.

My mums gsd has minor wounds to her face and superficial punctures and scrapes to her leg. The lurcher suffered a bite to his foot. He has not seen the vet yet as we have treated at home (on our vets advice).

My mum spoke to the lady next door and both agreed that they would not fall out over the dogs. That was, until the dog came back from the vets and my mum popped round to see how he was and to see how big the vet bill was. The vet bill was £118, my mum offered to pay half, the lady nodded and started to say "thats fine" but husband jumped in and said he wants her to pay it all and that she is lucky they are not taking it further.
My mum just sort of nodded and said she needed to go back home (she suffers from anxiety and other things which made her going round there a big deal)

Now, i personally think that as both dogs were offlead, it is no ones fault- yes more damage was caused to her dog but i think mum offering to pay half is perfectly acceptable considering their dog did initiate the fight.
It just feels like husband is trying to scare her into paying the full amount- threatening to report the attack, when the fact is it was dog on dog and both offlead!
do you agree?

Under those circumstances no I don't agree, it was nice of you mum to offer to pay half but I personally don;t think she sould pay at all.
Been in a similar situation with my old GSD and both the other dog owner and myself agreed that it was no one's fault and we settled our own bills

It sounds to me like both parties were so to speak 'at fault' & should only pay their own vet bills. Unfortunately for your mums neighbour their dog seems to have come off worse....I doubt if the OH of the neighbour, would be offereing to pay the bill, if the shoe had been on the other foot!!!

Have to say I think it is a 50 50 case of responsibility as both dogs are known to have a dislike of other dogs and both were off the lead.

It is a shame your Mother's offer was not accepted as it would have been nice to keep it friendly but under the circumstances she should withdraw the offer and let them sort themselves out.

I would think you should each pay half of each vet bill, theirs and yours as it was 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

I would expect each dog owner to pay for the damage to thier own dog under these circumstances . The JRT has come off worse from picking a fight with a GSD .... little dog big ego..
I would not pay it and prefer to fall out with the neighbour, if the husband had spoke to me in that way he would also be nursing a wound..>a flea in his ear<.
Like dog like owner by the sounds of it.

Tell him its your offer or no offer.. think you are being very generous .

Maybe in a day or two it will calm down and you can come to a agreement.

The accepted procedure in the Old Days was, in the case of dog fights, for each owner to pay the other one's vet bill. That way you accepted responsibility for the damage done by your own dog.

Your poor mum, being a nice lady she has done what she feels was the nice thing to do in accepting that her dog caused harm to another, trouble is the neighbour hasn't done the same thing and accepted hers did exactly the same and both your mum's dogs were injured by the JRT. Which is leaving me with a question.

it started barking aggressively at the gsd and before either my mum or the jrt owner had chance to react, the dogs met and, well it was a serious fight.

You need to be clear here as it makes a huge difference. Barking aggressively does not mean the dog would necessarily attack so.........

Who took the first bite?

1. Did they jointly approach and jointly attack? (In which case both should take care of their own dogs injuries.) Your mum should offer nothing.

2. If the JRT started it and your mum's GSD finished it! It should be even, once again your mum should not pay, dogs are allowed to defend themselves.

3. But if the GSD took the first bite even if provoked then I can understand why they want her to pay and in this case I would pay.

So get the complete story first, if it is 1 or 2 get your mum to take photo's of her two dogs injuries and whilst it is fresh in her mind to write down the full events of that day. (just in case) She needs to be strong enough to tell them that she has had a re-think and is not taking responsibility for this, that she was only being nice but after the response she won't be taken for a fool. Can you go with her?

it does not matter who took the first bite, these two have been winding each other up though the fence for some time.

Like someone else said leave it a few days untill everyone has calmed down. The man will be upset about his dog, but such not speak to this lady like that.

I would be very carefull not to let the dogs meet again.

It just feels like husband is trying to scare her into paying the full amount- threatening to report the attack, when the fact is it was dog on dog and both offlead!

Report the attack to who, for what? There is no law saying dogs can't fight, if it wasn't humans making them fight.

I've been in a similar position when an aggressive Pap who's owner wouldn't contain it on her property, ran out onto the street and went for my on (short) lead SBT's ( not a smart move ), cheeky mare came to my door a few days later demanding £200 vet's fee's ! when I refused she got the police involved !. The only reason they came out was because the horrible cow started to say " it could be a child next " police woman met my dog's and was given a hearty Staffie snog lol, and nothing came of it.
I think your mum was very decent to offer paying half, but given that both dog's appear to have been as bad as each other I don't think she should be paying the whole lot, it was the JRT's bad luck it came off worse. Perhaps a call to the dog warden would clear things up, they might be able to advise her on where she stands.
For anyone in a similar situation in the future, beware of offering to pay any vet bills as this can be viewed as admitting liability if it went to court.

it does not matter who took the first bite, these two have been winding each other up though the fence for some time.

It certainly does if a dog warden is called or it ends up in court!

Were there any other witnesses ?

it certainly does if the dog warden is called or it ends up in court

Yes thats right, but if the dog warden is knows about dogs it such be taken into acount, as for the court you would need a good lawer who knows dogs.

Who took the first bite?

1. Did they jointly approach and jointly attack? (In which case both should take care of their own dogs injuries.) Your mum should offer nothing.

2. If the JRT started it and your mum's GSD finished it! It should be even, once again your mum should not pay, dogs are allowed to defend themselves.

3. But if the GSD took the first bite even if provoked then I can understand why they want her to pay and in this case I would pay.

The jrt barked instantly when he saw my mums dog, this then made the gsd turn around and they both ran at each other, they were both at it just as much as the other, the only reason the jrt is worse off is because the gsd has a really thick coat and is obviously bigger. It was also fairly obvious the main bite wound only occured once the jrt had attached itself to the gsds lip.
Oh, and the jrt owner just stood there screaming whilst my mum was pulling the gsd off, the jrt kept coming back for more!

I've just spoken to my mum too and her lurcher has had to go to the vet- he severed a tendon last year on broken glass and she has found another puncture wound on his leg in the same place so it looks like he could have damaged the same tendon again :(

it certainly does if the dog warden is called or it ends up in court

Yes thats right, but if the dog warden is knows about dogs it such be taken into acount, as for the court you would need a good lawer who knows dogs.
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Of which there is plenty about, my MiL was taken to court and bound over to keep the peace even though it was her dog that was attacked, so it can happen.

Boody, I know it is so unfair, people just dont understand dogs, its usaly the one on the lead who gets the blame, or if one uses aggressive body lanuage to try to defend itself because it does'nt want to fight, it can look to someone inexperienced that that dog started it.
So the defendsive dog gets the blame.

It is very differcult sometimes to say who started it. if two dogs are approaaching each other the body lanuage could start a long way before they reach each other.

I'm not talking about this perticlar case here.

hope all 3 dogs get over it and the neighbours can remain on good terms once its all carmed down.

Gwerty, it's a no blame case then, just dog on dog. 

Your mum is lovely, but she really shouldn't take the blame for the attack, it's an unfortunate incident, let's hope all dogs recover a.s.a.p. 

Many years ago one of my cats was attacked by my neighbours, they had both squared up and gone for it, I went running out garden brush in hand to break up the fight and my cat had had his throat ripped, blood everywhere, along with other injuries, as you can guess the vets bill was not little. My neighbour never offered any payment and I would never have taken anything, (I did have insurance, but my neighbour never asked) these things happen, it should be the same in this case.

What a shame it isn't. :-(

Our cat was the subject of frequent vicious attacks from the neighbours Tom cat. On one occasion, my husband broke up a nasty fight and was bitten by the neighbour's cat in the process.  Wound was cleaned thoroughly and we thought no more about it.  I took the cat to our vets to be examined etc. and the wound cleaned, a few days later he became ill, as did my husband.  Both were suffering with hepatitis/jaundice.

We didn't pursue the neighbour for the vet's bills or "compensation" for my husband's illness.  It was just a case of animals doing what comes naturally (from their point of view).  The neighbours cat came away unscathed (no bills for them!) and we paid a hefty fee to treat our cat.  We keep our cat as a house cat now, poor soul is old and doesn't need to be duffed up daily!

I guess it's a different matter legally with dogs (compared to cats) however the principle is the same (I think). 

Just like people (some people!) antagonism leads to violence, dogs are no different.  If they are in fear of being attacked or are being attacked they are going to defend themselves.  If we were talking car "accidents", where both parties were at fault it would be "knock for knock" and each party would pay their own bills. 

Your Mum was very honourable about offering money towards the vet's bill but shouldn't be taken advantage of in the process.  Imagine if you were the owner of the smaller dog and the neighbour's dog was bigger, would they be offering any compensation towards costs, I doubt it!

Hope all recover and the Lurcher doesn't have complications from his involvement in the situation x

I don't think your mum should take the blame - as has been said, the dogs have been winding each other up for a long time. Also if anything it sounds as if the jrt was the main problem in that he kept coming back for more, even after the gsd owner, your mum, was separating her dog. So some of the injuries at least could have been incurred when he ran back for more (typical terrier!).

I think the best thing would be if the dogs could be stopped winding each other up. Either using an environmental barrier or perhaps getting in a reputable behaviourist who might be able to suggest how to work on the problem.

Lindsay
x

No, I don't believe your Mum should pay. However, the other thing would be to tell them that she will pay their Vets fee as long as they pay your Mum's Vet fee, (which could well be much more now that the Lurcher is injured).

If your mother pays at all (which I don't think she should) I'd suggest that she pays direct to the Veterinary Surgery or she will have no proof that she paid.

I think it's a shame that the GSD and lurcher weren't on lead (as they should have been in a public place). At least then in light of the fight which occurred, it would definitely have been the terrier coming in for a fight who would have been at fault. With all 3 dogs not restrained, the situation would have been much harder to control and stop. Much more difficult that the dogs probably wind each other up from either side of the fence on a normal day, I'm sure they couldn't wait to get stuck into each other when the opportunity arose!

That being said, a very upsetting situation for the OP's mother, and I do sympathise. I would be concerned for the injured dog, but if it was a 50/50 situation, I would be visiting the neighbour's to offer sympathy and concern. I don't think I would be offering to pay vet fees.

If a dog attacked mine when they were on lead, I'm afraid it would get the sharp end of my boot!

I hope they all manage to sort it out amicably. Such a shame that the dogs would drive a wedge between them (what's to say they were ever friends anyway?).

I think it's a shame that the GSD and lurcher weren't on lead (as they should have been in a public place

Bit of sweeping statement that! My Girls are usually off lead in the park and I assume this was the same....no need to be on a lead in a public area...just on the road.

That said I would think it was a case of 50/50 and they should pay thier own vet bills. It is unfortunat but no one is really to blame, dogs will be dogs and these two had a score to settle. I am sure if one or other owner saw the other in time they would have been leashed and walked away in order to put space between them. Tell your Mum not to worry, It would cost a lot to take it to court and I expect a court would come to a "pay your own" desision anyway. Hope they are recovering now and your Mum has calmed down.
Aileen

I think it's a shame that the GSD and lurcher weren't on lead (as they should have been in a public place).

errrr Really??? according to who? because it certainly isnt the law! and why the gsd and lurcher and not the jrt? do small dogs have a different set of rules according to you? I dont believe for a second my mother  should have had her dogs on a lead, they are normally very well behaved, civilized dogs, this was an unfortunate incident that no one was to blame.

Just an update: my mum paid the WHOLE of their bill (i did try and stop her) she went round on staurday evening, this time the husband was very nice and accepted the money(that is all he wanted) but the wife had been to the pub :/ she spouts as my mum was leaving "are you not going to muzzle your dog and tie her up -in the garden- .

Well, as i was with my mum i politely told her that if she thought the gsd needed muzzling, then her jrt did too. I also told her that in NO WAY would my mum be confining the dog in her own garden to a lead/tether. The woman would not take even a little responsibility for the fight- she 100% blames the gsd...what a little drink can do eh?!

By this point i was trying to hide my annoyance so i told her that if she hassles my mum or comes out with anymore snide remarks (as they have been doing) then we wont hesitate to take civil action to recover the vets fees for the injury to the lurcher (already at £300)

I'm sorry Querty I don't think I inferred that the terrier had any right to be off lead at all. I just think that a dog can be easier controlled if on lead. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear, I didn't mean to cause offence.

It is my understanding that any dog should always be leashed when on the public highway. No dog which is off lead is under total control. I was assuming when reading your initial post that the incident happened outside of their house, not in a park. Of course my dogs are allowed off lead in a park/field/beach etc, but I would never allow them to walk along the pavement as there are too many things which could distract them, causing an accident.

I'm sorry this happened, and hope that the injured dogs make a full recovery.

> It is my understanding that any dog should always be leashed when on the public highway.

Actually, it only says thay have to be under control...no leads are mentioned....this then covers dogs that works farm animals, otherwise they would not be allowed to do their job.

The last time I read it it said on lead except those dogs carrying out work such as herding or hounds.

It happened on a walk on the canal towpath, nowhere near the house or street, it just so happens that they were walking in the same place at the same time.

You're correct Brainless, just checked it out here
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/27

Unfortunately, the key word here is 'designated'.  Unless the local authority has designated a particular road, as one where dogs must be on leads, the law cannot be enforced. I am a member of my parish council and we have been discussing a number of dog related issues recently with our local police,  dogs off lead on our local 'A' road, mostly out with horse-riders are one of our problems. We have been told that unless an accident occurs, there isn't much the police can do, other than an informal warning of the risks involved. Crazy.

but surely all 'public roads' or should be are designated roads?  We pay our council Tax and Car Tax for them?

> Unfortunately, the key word here is 'designated'

Yes :( My neighbour walks her two dogs off lead in our lane. The other day she was outside our house when we arrived home and one of her dogs, despite being called, ran around the back of our car as my OH was reversing into the drive :( Fortunately, I shouted at OH and he stopped the car in time. She just waved at us and walked on - this sort of thing is always happening, but she knows the law and so does nothing. One day, one of her dogs will be hit by a car/tractor :( One of her dogs is also dog aggressive and it doesn't always have it's muzzle on either :(

Daisy

but she knows the law and so does nothing.

This is what we are up against!  A friend was driving slowly up her lane when a neighbour, coming the other way, pulled up, opened her car door and allowed 5 flatcoats to spill out all over the lane! Friend braked immediately, narrowly missing one dog, the owner of the dogs then screamed at her, accusing her of nearly running her dogs over!!!  What can one do?

Best wishes

Any dog in my oppinion that is not on a lead is not under control regardless  of how well trained they are.They are animals at the end of the day and it only takes 1 thing to set off there animal instinct.

> Any dog in my oppinion that is not on a lead is not under control regardless&nbsp; of how well trained they are.They are animals at the end of the day and it only takes 1 thing to set off there animal instinct.

I agree to a degree, as a dog can not herd an animal on a lead(ie Border Collie herding cows)!

I agree with that too, working dogs obviously need to be able to do their jobs and a collie couldn't do its stuff on a lead.
In Aberystwyth, near where I live, there is a long cycle track/path on the side of the pavement (not on the side by the road), it runs along a very busy road and there are always dogs off lead there. It makes me quite anxious when I drive on that bit of road even though the off lead dogs seem well trained and steady I wouldn't like to risk one of mine when the only thing between them and the road is 3 foot of pavement. I think it is this sort of dog off lead people object too rather than working dogs.
This debate probably needs a new thread!