Hello all, I have a bitch (small gundog) who is our family pet. She is 2 years old and we would like to have a litter with her. We recently took her to stud to a boy we found near by. The advert for him said he was kennel club registered. After the mating we were told he had an kc endorsement which his breeders had given him. We have a 5 generation pedigree but apparently the breeders were he was from have now moved away and cannot be found. :s He does have a recent eye test but is there anyway we can lift this endorsement as we would really like to be able to register the puppies? We are not big breeders and just have a litter very occasionally for the love doing it. We feel that as they are a reasonably rare breed it would be nice to register them. Anyone have any suggestions???

No. His breeders obviously had a good reason for him not to be included in the gene pool - maybe some hereditary problem that you don't know about.

You ARE a breeder whether you take it seriously or not.  Part of being a responsible breeder is to know about the way that registration works and why responsible breeders endorse their puppies sold as pets.  The owner of the stud dog is no better informed.

Your breed is far from being a rare breed.  The puppies that you produce will have to be homed as unregistered.

You really should have checked that the dog was free to be used at stud.

it is irresponsible or the person owning the stud to offer him if he has been endorsed and the endorsement has not been lifted.  You could probably take them to the small claims court for misrepresentation.

they could contact the kennel club to pass a letter onto the breeder, who hopefully has passed on their change of address to the kennel club.  They could also contact the breed club who may know of the breeders current address and pass on a letter.

I assume the male has not been shown, otherwise the owner would likely have been in regular contact with the breeder of their dog.

If the breeder is not prepared to have the endorsement lifted then unfortunately your stuck with an unregistered litter. 

As i understand it, he could not be used for show (which is what his breeders bred for) as he has white on his chest, and this is why they put an endorsement on him.

I'm not sure they could take anyone to the small claims court, if the advert state's the dog is KC registered, it doesn't mean the pups can automatically be KC registered; surely that's up to the bitch owner to ascertain? 

It's been said time and time again, the only thing an endorsement does is stop the progeny being KC registered, it doesn't and can't stop the dog/bitch actually being used.  You'd hope that would be enough to put people off, but obviously not. 

A dog that isn't good enough to show usually isn't good enough to breed from. Being endorsed does not stop the dog from being shown, just being bred from.

really wishing the mods would give us a "like" button.......well said westcoast!

This is a serious situation and perhaps the best thing, if it is not to late, would be for termination. There is no shortage of the breed and you are not going to get the best homes for pups that can't be registered and carry a fault.

Not sure of the breed in question, but I am an owner and breeder of a small gundog breed which whilst not rare is certainly not as numerous as some others in the group, and we often have "mismarked" pups with white chests when doing parti to solid matings.  We will sometimes keep these mismarks for our further breeding programmes because whilst they cannot be shown they may be excellent specimens of the breed and bred to the right partner will produce either solid or parti pups .  However, any pups sold as pets will always be endorsed progeny not to be registered, it not being the mismark which has made them unsuitable but possibly another fault or just lack of quality.  You may find that this is the case with the dog you have used, or it could as other posters have suggested some health problem which has appeared in it's family history since the dog was conceived.

I would suggest that you contact the dog's breeder and discover why the endorsement was placed on the puppy, this will enable you to decide the correct course of action.  Hereditary health issues, for instance, would suggest you think carefully about terminating the pregnancy.  Are you taking the stud dog owner's word for it that his breeder has moved?  Do they have an affix, if so a question here or a google search may find them

charlotte, I hope you will not be too angered by the feelings which people on here may have towards you and the litter you've bred.

If you take some time to browse around the forum, especially reading the sticky posts at the top, you might see why people are expressing these sorts of feelings. 

Generally speaking, the folk on this board go far and wide to find exactly the right studs for their dogs.  ("Brainless" has actually just come back from a trip to the US, where she took her bitch to stud.)  No distance is too far, the only priority is the desired dog.  Not just a dog "near by".  Whether the pups are going to pet homes or show homes, the best is bred for - physically and in every other way. 

These folk you are asking your question of are the very breeders who endorse their dogs to protect them from ignorant owners who might later want to breed from them, thereby perpetuating faults which might otherwise be eliminated from the gene pool.  They are unlikely to be telling you how to get around such an endorsement when they wholeheartedly approve of it being there in the first place.

To think that you are somehow just breeding a pet litter, in a small way, and therefore it is ok to perpetuate faults, is not looking at the bigger picture.

Charlotte, sadly being KC registered and having a 5-generation pedigree is just the start.

How deeply have you researched the health requirements of your breed?   Should they (and here I mean your bitch as well as the dog) have been health-tested - not just a health check from your friendly local vet - but I mean eyes/hips/elbows/heart/epilepsy ...and so on?

A good breeder - such as the breeder of the dog in question - does endorse all puppies (including the ones s/he keeps for themselves at first!) - and often endorsements MAY be lifted if a puppy shows that he does fulfil all the standards required by the breed and has passed all the health testing/scoring requirements.

However, it looks as if you and the owner of the so-called stud have jumped the gun on these tests.

I fully agree with loki's mum...

I endorse my puppies , I have at the moment two owners  who are showing two bitches I bred wanting to have a litter of which I am happy with , I am looking for the right stud for each bitch ...along with the owners... and awaiting  results of the health tests before I even consider lifting the endorsements.
If it was a male I would go through the same process .

I am afraid I have no sympathy with you as you seem to have fallen short and not done your homework, by mating your bitch before sifting thought the finer details.

Going off on a tangent slightly but surely stud dogs are sought out by the bitch owners based on their achievements , pedigree , health test results , obviously temperament etc , NOT advertised in the local paper , shop , online etc ??

Are you sure you believe the stud owners when they say the breeder has moved away ? If i moved i think my pup owners would be amongst the first people that i gave my new address to. Its a shame , endorsements are placed for a reason , it gives me shivers to think that after everything we do to safeguard our pups welfare with contracts , endorsements etc , people just go ahead and breed from them anyway :-( :-(

I wish you well with your litter as they are on their way now and none of this is their fault.
Lucy

No suggestions, the litter will not be able to be registered until the endorsement is lifted.

I wish you well with your litter as they are on their way now and none of this is their fault.
Nor the fault of the new families that will enquire about these puppies.  I just hope that potential owners will do their homework and seek out responsible breeders.

> I'm not sure they could take anyone to the small claims court, if the advert state's the dog is KC registered, it doesn't mean the pups can automatically be KC registered;

The implication is that they can though as else why mention it.

To the OP, if the dog has too much white then he should not perhaps be used for breeding if he is supposed to be a solid colour as this will be passed on to some of the offspring.

Whoever the breeder was, she did the responsible thing.. the endorsement is there for a very good reason

Last year, sadly, I had a litter which produced quite a lot of white on some of the pups (some had no white at all)  4 of the pups had small, perfectly acceptable white flash, no more than a dozen hairs on their chest.. The best bitch in the litter had a completely white paw... I swithered about keeping the little black girl in the litter, but decided not to... I would have shown her, but would also have liked to have a litter from her in the future... Common sense told me that so much white in the litter may be repeated in any offspring... The whole point of breeding is to maintain or improve... this litter was neither... Not only were pups endorsed (as per normal) but wording was written into the contract and all pups were pet homed...

The wording went as follows... The pups are endorsed, and under no circumstances will I agree to lift the endoresments..

All owners signed and understood why I had placed the extra wording, and all pups went to pet homes on the understanding that these pups should never be bred from... even the ones who were free from white hairs...

This breeder, wherever she is, has sold this pup with restrictions, for a very good reason...The owner of the boy has been completely irresponsible in using him at stud, and you as the bitch owner is every bit as irresponsible for not doing your homework before chosing him.. There are many good dogs out there... I am curious as to your reason for using him :-(

i totaly agree we full endorse the whole litter when registering the puppys including the ones we are thinking of keeping as it is easy to remove later when we want to also we have stated in the contracts which we both sign and have a copy each of the endorements we tell every prospective buyer that they will be fully endosoreded, we are also just outside the vunerable breeds register 350 pups 2009 last year not any better but the breed rescue is for both corgi breeds and has a waiting of over two years to get a rescue demand is there but not enough dogs to fill it thanks be to god i have been waiting for a cardi pup for four years i want the lines i want and am prepared to wait my litter has just been sold and people travelled up to four hours one way for a pup no question about being to far to travel just happy to have found one after a long search over a year in one case, all are experinced corgi owners in fact one owner now has two of our dogs but saying that we will not lift the endorsements as it is for the dogs wellbeing and they are told that

We are not big breeders and just have a litter very occasionally for the love doing it.

these words alone made me shudder. aren't there enough dogs in rescue?

How do you know the breed isnt rare? i didnt tell you what breed she is

You posted the breed in your first post and it was removed by a moderator do not try to play games

excuse me, i was only asking, i didnt realise you weren't allowed to put the breed

Yes that may well have been a mistake however you knew you had posted the breed. To then try and say you hadn't turned out to be a mistake also.

Charlotte, thought you had decided not to take part in your thread anymore.  If you want to PM (Private Message) me the name or affix of the dogs breeder I may well be able to trace them for you as this is my breed so I have lots of contacts.  They can the either explain to you the reason behind placing the endorsement - which could be very important to you if it is because of a hereditary probelm, health issue etc., or may be prepared to listen to your reasons for wanting the endorsement lifted if they simply placed blanket endorsements on the litter.