Hi,

I've got a situation that's came up I'm going to try make this a shorter version as possible basically my b..tch was mated to intended stud dog now she's had the puppies now there 4 weeks old now I had my friend over with her dog supposedly neutered the day before came round and my bitch was in season so thought safe did see them mount briefly when we very briefly left the room thought safe if dog was neutered I'm sounding so irresponsible here aren't I it was a mistake I feel so stupid anyway found out friend did not neuter her dog after all but as soon as I found out few days ago I got dna test done and notified stud owner as soon as I knew anyway to cut it short shes threatned to take me to small claims court because I did sign a contract with her in regards to stud fee but I've dna'd as soon as I knew and notified them can she do this I do feel bad and stupid hitting myself but I want to solve this without court if possible

I'm a bit confused - do you know yet who the sire of the puppies is? You could have some pups by each dog, of course.

So you had your bitch mated by your chosen dog and then she was mated by another dog the next day?  But you've only just found out?   surely it's easy to tell if a dog is neutered - his testicles would be missing! 

As I understand it the stud fee is payable to the stud for the service, not for the pups ;)  although some seem to charge differently.

As I see it, you had the service and pups resulted.  Whether they are from the dog you paid for or not isn't really the point.  Perhaps you should be thankful you aren't being charged by the owner of the other dog too ?

Sometimes we make mistakes and we have to pay the consequences ;)

What if the other dog had been the same breed as the original stud dog?   Or the owner hadn't come clean?

You would have had pups that weren't the progeny of the original dog and sold them as his.  This could have led to a legal minefield had it gone awry later on and the owner of the stud dog been blamed for, say, bad hips or a genetic problem passed on which wasn't his dog's fault.   Not to mention, selling pups as the progeny of a dog that wasn't the father, which could be construed as fraud.

I know this isn't what you really want to hear but, Personally, I'd pay up and learn the lesson - NEVER allow a bitch access to another dog - entire or not - if you're planning a litter ;)

Hi ridgelover no don't know for definate who the father is now but I've done dna tests just waiting for that to come back but the stud owner is insisting she wants to do her own dna tests but I've already done that and will happilly show her the results when they arrive not hiding anything from her is it worth her doing the dna tests again and put more expense I think she just wants to pay for this and take me to court just to get me to pay up although I've said she'll get said stud fee if puppies does turn out to be her stud dogs and I've forked out the money for the tests no problem I'm not after any money just wanted a puppy for myself to keep and this just has to happen can she take me to court why put out more expense I've done the dna tests already does it sound like shes trying to get back at me

Hi Sofie

As you mention the small claims court, I'm a bit confused as to why the stud dog owner is threatening this action unless money is owed (stud fee) or goods (pup) to them as part of the mating arrangement you agreed upon.

Are you saying the pups are sired by your friend's dog and not the stud dog you visited or there are two fathers? 

Is the dispute over the stud fee to be paid to the stud dog owner or their rights to have a puppy from the litter (or whatever arrangements you made)?

I realise mistakes can happen and it is most unfortunate that you were in the position to question the parentage of the pups (& felt the need to DNA test) and given the circumstances you have acted responsibly.  However, f the dispute is over money (stud fee) or a puppy in lieu of the stud fee, I personally feel you should honour your agreement as the stud dog and his/her owner honoured their part of the arrangement by conducting the mating.

It is every bitch owners responsibility to ensure that their in season/mated girl is kept safe (I know you thought things were safe, you were not being reckless) but the mishap (if indeed all or some of the pups are by your friends dog) is not the fault of the stud dog owner. 

Apologies if I've "got the wrong end of the stick".

Im presuming you havent yet paid the stud fee ..and SD owner thinks you are working a fast one? dont know if this is what you are say hard to understand....
You need to pay the stud dog owner whether puppies are her dogs puppies or not as she had a contract with you and you did after all have a mating take place with which you would have been satisfied with before you found out about your friends dog.!

Also what possessed your friend to say her dog had been neutered knowing full well she was bringing him to a house with an in season bitch.Also I wouldnt personally let any dogs near a pregnant bitch in case bugs were passed on.

DNA will tell you the parentage of the puppies ..but as I said earlier I understand why the SD owner is miffed ..

also could look at it from her point too, she might be thinking your just saying all this and are trying to get out of paying her??? im not saying you are at all but maybe she is ? what a mess! hope you get it sorted soon xxx

Hi dil I don't mind paying up and yes it was a very bad mistake the breed in question is long haired and the supposedly neutered dog coat was being kept quite long so couldn't see down there and didn't think to look deep down and under yes annoyed at myself I will pay up the stud fee as agreed then even though puppies may not be his can she still take me to court if I pay stud fee

Hi white lilly I see your point in the stud dog owner thinking I'm trying to get out of not paying but I'm trying to do the right thing yes such a mess and lesson learnt

I would imagine she will let it drop if payment is made ...but if the puppies are not the dogs she will possibly fore go the offer of another mating in the future as she may see you as an irresponsible owner.

Hi starryeyes I'm getting her spayed as soon as puppies are gone to new homes

I am very confused, you have a service from a stud dog and you pay for this after that I can't see what it has to do with the owner of that stud unless you have also agreed to give a pup in part payment.

Is the owner of the stud going to take you to court to stop you using her stud on the puppies documentation?

Can't understand otherwise what the problem is, I take it the studs were the same breed.

PS. If the dog was only neutered the day before it would still be viable anyway so the chances are you have a litter of mixed pups with different sires.

I'm sorry, but if it were my stud dog that you had used I would be demanding the stud fee. They have fulfilled their part of the bargain by servicing your bitch. The fact that you have allowed another dog to serve the bitch as well has nothing  to do with them and they should not be expected to suffer financially because of it.
Was this extra dog of the same breed? Is it pedigree and can any pups that it has fathered be registered?

I may be wrong as I don't breed dogs, but I would have thought the payment for the stud dog's service should/would be paid at time of service as is usual with most other species of animals. Any kind of deviation from this I'd expect to have all eventualities covered in writing and and agreed or signed by both parties.
ETA: posted same time as you Sassinak.

Are you doubting the puppies are from the stud dog as looking back at other post at the time.. I notice you were not convinced at the time that the slip mating had resulted in her being in whelp?

I would like to put up a different prospective on this. If I was the stud dog owner I would like to have either seen the DNA samples taken, or do them myself, for my own peace of mind. After all, her dog's reputation could be at stake here. You could be trying to pull a fast one, though I don't believe you are, as you could have kept quiet about it and registered them anyway, but I can see the SD owners point of view.

Hi,

everyone thanks for all the help yes I agree stud dog owners fault but mine and I agree on fee is for service and will be paid whatever the result if this is agreed upon by stud dog owner as well both of us are going to vet and lawyer tommorow what a mess

Hi starryeyes,

yes it was slip matings so did wonder if the mating worked or not but to be fair I'll pay fee as I did agree to this for the stud service

Hi Sofie,

What a pickle you're in. Looking back at your other posts, what has now made you think your pups could be by your friend's dog? Was it just her announcement that her boy wasn't neutured. Is her dog the same breed as yours or something totally different? Do the pups look like cross breeds?

I can totally understand why the stud dog owner is so upset but feel getting a lawyer involved is a bit OTT until you know the DNA results.

Hi biffsmum,

yes it was the announcement by my friend that her dog was not neutered that gave me the doubts and I agree seeking a lawyer is a bit OTT wouldn't they not charge for seeing them

sorry forgot to say yes my friends dog is the same breed as my girl

at least you have owned up to it, some would't. Hope the pups are all healthy and you get good homes for them all.

> sorry forgot to say yes my friends dog is the same breed as my girl

Then I think you are doing the responsible thing by getting the puppies DNA tested, which will be the key to solving the whole issue.

Having longhair/shorthair in the litter will prove nothing, as longhair is recessive and could be carried by two shorthaired parents. But if your girl doesn't carry longhair and all the puppies are shorthair, that doesn't rule out your friend's dog as being the sire. And some pups could be fathered by one sire, some by the other. I would wait til you get the results back but keep the peace with the stud owner in the meantime.

> I will pay up the stud fee as agreed then even though puppies may not be his can she still take me to court if I pay stud fee

But what would she be taking your to court regarding?   I am not understanding.

If you pay the stud fee if that was the terms of the service then what is the issue?

If they were to get a puppy and none of the pups are by her dog then it is the same as if she had missed, or had the wrong sex, just bad luck.

I had a mating hwere the fee was only payable if pups resulted.  No pups no fee, which was a good job as i'd have lost out.  i wouldn't have minded, the std owner was very nice on my part and i had a free mating next time.  Is this anything like your arrangement, if so, Sd owner can't take you to court.  if fee due regardless, i would pay her.

I think your DNA results should be enough, did she submit her dogs DNA as well?  the results are offical and i presume on offical paper (headed).

Sorry to hear your prediciment and hope it sorts.  i would look towards your freind for the added expenses you've had for her stupidity.  She should have known better.  You went to know.

I am still puzzled, even if the friends dog had been neutered he would still have been able to sire a litter so that part of the saga is not really relevant.

If you promised a fee only if puppies resulted then I can see the owner of the first stud will want to do DNA tests to make sure that none are by her stud but using the small claims court should be the last step not the first. On the other hand there was "a fee for the service" agreed then you owe them and again providing you pay I can't see why she feels the need to go to a solicitor.

I am with Nova here.  It isn't relevant that the dog had not been neutered.  You state that you thought he had been neutered the day before your friends visit.  When he would still have viable sperm - surely you are aware of that if you are an experienced breeder!

I do understand the stud dog owners worry.  I would want to know for sure if my stud boy was a dad or not - and to which pups in the litter.  If there are any health problems in the litter, as a stud dog owner, I would not want any genetic problems attributed to my boy, so yes, I would be wary of the results.  I would want the DNA tests done with me present at sampling.

Sorry - I do understand the stud dog owners attitude.

Hi everyone,

I've sorted it out with the stud dog owner I'm just going to pay her the fee as was agreed before and that's going to be the end of this fiasco but I want to say thanks to everyone who replied to my questions this is a great forum with helpful people :)

Can we assume you won't be registering the puppies until you know who the sire is?  I'm surprised the studs owner has backed down so quickly.  I certainly wouldn't want my boy listed as sire of a litter/puppies he wasn't.  Makes pedigrees useless if the correct dogs are not listed.

I'm just going to pay her the fee as was agreed before and that's going to be the end of this fiasco

Glad you have come to an agreement with the owner of the first stud but that is not the end of the matter at all - you are going to have to make sure that the pups from this whelping are attributed to the right stud as any future problem with any of the pups will require that the correct stud is known. The KC do live in this world and will understand that there were two studs but you will need to have undertaken the DNA testing in a professional and accurate way so there is no doubt .

As a side issue while I was in the USA I was asked if we use dual sires here, as it is something the AKC encourage, especially in breeds that have large litters as it gives more scope to a bitches breeding potential.

I suppose in USA where AI is used a lot in can be done quite handily.

Can you imagine the logistics of a planned dual sire litter, trying to get a bitch to two males at the optimum time.

Do you pay two stud fees regardless of which dogs sires the pups, after all they have both done their job.

Financially there would be a disincentive with two studs to be paid, after all few breeders plan to keep two pups from a given litter.

Also, with natural matings, I would imagine it would encourage the spread of disease? Rather more simple where AI is the norm.

i always have stud fee on day bitch arrives and take photos to prove mating has occured. if no litter then owner gets a free mating at next season. why didnt stud owner ask for money upfront. if charlie has sired the litter or not i would want paying as someone else has said you pay for the use of stud dog which you had.

i agree but in this case would you want your boys pediree there to the pups if hes not the dad?? and if pups have alot of health problems it will look bad on his lines in the future.
JMO :) xxx

It does seem to vary from owner to owner.  I've had matings without fees until preggers comfirmed or pups born/sold.  My breeder has always paid on the day.

Glad things are sorted now. 

> why didnt stud owner ask for money upfront.

The OP only managed to get slip matings with teh stud dog.

In many breeds the stud fee is the price of a puppy so bitch and stud owners often feel the fee is for a live litter (usually of more than two puppies, with fewer pups a reduced fee would be payable).

So stud owner might prefer not to take the money until litter is born, as it's easier to be owed money than to have to refund it.

From a bitch owners point of view with often time constraints to achieve a litter one may not want to possibly waste another season on trying the same dog if a bitch misses.

That is why stud terms need to be clear and preferably in writing.

I have just stayed in the USA at the stud dog owners, been fed and looked after, bitch mated and fed, transported to and from the airport and the stud owner didn't want anything until/if a litter resulted. 

I decided to leave her half the fee (whether we got anything or nto) as no point bringing the dollars back, fortunately the bitch is in whelp, and I will pay the balance when they are born.

> but that is not the end of the matter at all - you are going to have to make sure that the pups from this whelping are attributed to the right stud

The OP has had pups DNA parentage tested, just waiting for the results.

>fortunately the bitch is in whelp

Brainless that's a 'good news' announcement - congratulations - apologies for OT

Now we just need a choice of bitches for me and dogs for Nova.

hi sofie, I know this won't be what you want to hear on top of all the stress, this situation has caused--but the stud dog owner is entitled to her fee irrespective of whether they are his pups. You pay for the service. The bigger issue will be when you sell the pups because new owners will presumably be paying for a pedigree that may not be theirs. The stud dog owner is right to insist on DNA tests because she will need to know that the pups are her dog's before you can register them. I know it's extra expense, but at least you can prove to buyers that the puppies are (or aren't) what they are claimed to be, which could save some nasty surprises and potential legal issues in the future. I think you will have to chalk this up to experience.

I may have misunderstood your initial post, but I understood you to say you thought that the friend's dog had been neutered the day before its visit? Even if he had been neutered, the dog would have been fertile for many weeks afterward--again, sorry you have landed in a mess, but at least you will learn from it.

Hi Brainless, I read this post too with a sense of horror--surely you'd have to believe that dogs really are first and foremost just commodities to do this. Surely for the sake of the bitch this could only be done as AI--as you say, the logistics and stress of getting the bitch served by two studs don't bear thinking about. I've stretched my imagination to think under what circumstances one would want to consider it, but even if it were her last possible litter, and there were unique circumstances attached to the stud(s), I couldn't.

DNA profiling means nothing unless the dog being sampled is permanently identified by chip or tattoo this means both potential fathers,mother & all pups. Are they all identifiable?

That is all too true which is why I said in an earlier post you will need to have undertaken the DNA testing in a professional and accurate way so there is no doubt . Without that the tests are meaningless and will result in them needing to be done again after the pup has been properly identified.

To the OP..

Lets see if Ive got this right...

Went to use a stud dog....slip matings...doubt in your mind....didnt pay a stud fee...??? because no tie presumably.

While the bitch was still ovulating you happen to have a male of the same breed around to visit and you let them mate.

The stud dog owner found out, there was doubt as to whether the slip mating caused the pregnancy so the stud fee was in question.

Furious stud dog owner.

Is this a fair summary?

Tooolz...you and I think alike!!!
Aileen.

was thinking the same thing too!
xx

> you and I think alike!!!
>

Cynics!

I could see in breeds like Great Danes that ahve 10 - 15 puppies, amture late but age yougn where you might prefer that hafl the litter had a chance of being by a different sire and only take one or two litters from a bitch in her lifetime.

Logistically you would only need to amte the bitch to oen dog oen day and antoehr dog the next.

Happens with Feral dogs all the time or accidentally when we don't want it to as in this post, with no trauma to the bitch, other than the increased risk of infection mentioned.

Logistically you would only need to amte the bitch to oen dog oen day and antoehr dog the next

if you are sending the bitch to the dog, it would be a bit of a pain to get round to two

That's what i said earlier, you would really really want to have puppies by both studs as you would in effect be paying two stud fees for one litter and adding other costs.

Corrected spelling, LOL: > Logistically you would only need to mate the bitch to one dog one day and another dog the next

>