Hi -

I'm a bit confused about how each of these compare and relate, in terms of pros and cons, and which to ask my vet for, when the time comes...

I understand that Idexx is more reliable, but involves sending bloods off and getting results back either later that day or the next day?  (Which?)

Which is more expensive?

Is there any skill involved on the vet's part in terms of interpreting the Premate results?  Or is it v easy?

Ours will be a maiden bitch and a maiden stud as well - plus travelling to the continent for the mating.  She will be 4 and it will be her first litter, so if it doesn't work, we're pooped.  Which method would you recommend we go for?

At least the stud owner is experienced as a breeder, and will have other more experienced studs available if we need to test her with an experienced boy.

Numbers in my breed are small and we want this boy's genes.

Thanks.

I have always used premate so can,t commemnt on idex , i know its not as reliable but it does give you a time line , i think they use them in europe too  , a vet/nurse does need to know how to read them so i would be asking how many they do a week before going to them , a friend recently told me to check if it was male or female reading the test  , i asked why and she said she had come across a few male vets that couldnt read them correctly as they were colour blind !! apparently men are more likley to suffer from it , not a lot of help really but i  hope all goes well.

Thanks Newfie...

How much is each Premate test at your vets?

I've used both and would stick with the progesterone test, at my vets the costs are similar. Personally I would rather pay a little extra anyway for Idexx, and luckily I live near the lab and can deliver the blood myself, then get a call a couple of hours later, brilliant service.

I was told by a vet nurse that the premate can be affected by interpretation of the colour, or the test being left if the person got distracted etc, and she always did progesterone testing on her bitches.

Hi Wolfie, am I understanding right that when you say 'progesterone test', you mean Idexx? 

(Whereabouts is the lab, just in case I live near it too?!)

our vet charges £24.50

idexx do the progesterone test they do afew tests there it the name of the company :)
i had the progesterone test dont at a vets that send it off to a lab they use and get results same day in the afternoon
xx

So if Premate costs approx £24.50, how much does Idexx progesterone test cost?

Thanks

it costs at your vets to take blood so you need to find that out then idexx charge around £25 i think!??  never used premate but if i was to breed again which im not! i would always progesterone!
xx

a friend was going to do idex the vets quoted £58 but i think it will depend on the vet

Gosh, that is a substantial difference in price!

On average, how many Premate or Idexx tests do you have, when mating your dogs?  It sounds like 5-7...?  If so, that could be a huge difference in price..

it does depend but i have only ever done 3 on 1 bitch

We've had "premate" tests done on a handful of occasions for visiting bitches.  Cost was approx. £35 (a couple of years ago when we last used it)

We've recently used Idexx prior to mating and Idexx charged £25.38 and our vet charged £7.12 for the blood draw.  The test results from Idexx are more accurate than the "premate" test as Idexx measure the exact amount of progesterone in the sample. 

"Premate" relies on a chemical reaction which causes the reagent added to the sample to change colour in response to the presence of progesterone.  The colour change is then visually observed and compared to a chart supplied with the kit, next to each colour on the chart is an approximation of the progesterone level that the colour represents.

At my vets the (Target) premate tests were about £34 each, and last year I had 3 done for my maiden bitch - results back the same day.  This year I ended up having 3 premate tests done, and then because she didn't seem to be 'quite' ready I then had the IDEXX Test done, which my vet took the bloods for and sent away for me and that cost around £53 all in.  Results back the next day.

As others have said, the premate seems to give you a good time line, but you need to 'hold your nerve' a bit when it keeps saying 'not ready' and you have a bitch standing and flagging and saying AM ready!!!  That's why I 'checked' with IDEXX and that just seemed to back up what the premate was saying.

So, if you can only do premate, I would say that will give you a good indication for a natural mating.

Hi Rabid
The Idexx lab I use is in West Sussex (Horsham).

> So, if you can only do premate, I would say that will give you a good indication for a natural mating.

I agree with this one.  I have never bothered testing a bitch, I let my boys tell me when they are ready, thank them, and drive off to the dog I'm going to use.

But I have one girl that has had extremely short seasons, and my most experienced boy has taken no interest in her.  This is my last shot with this girl before having her spayed, so I decided to do premate from the time I first saw any swelling (even though no discharge.)

Very glad I did - she ovulated on day 4, so I had been trying far too late.  So, fingers crossed, I'm waiting to see if she is pregnant.

Horsham would be great for us.

Is there any reason why I should take the bloods to the lab myself rather than the vets or courier etc doing it?  (Is it cheaper?)  Do I need to keep them refrigerated or in a cool bag??!

arg.

Looking at the price differences, the Idexx one is only slightly more, so if we only need 3 or so, I think we'd go with Idexx.

if you take them your self you will get results same day if they are posted then its next day for results they dont need refrigerating or cool bag ,its still the same price as they send a pre paid enverlope with everything you need! :) xx

Hi,

That is great info.  Just so I make sure I am understanding it right...

I phone Idexx and tell them I'd like to do their progesterone test.  Idexx send me their pre paid envelope...?  (What is that for if I'm driving the bloods there?)

I go to my vet and get the bloods taken.  I drive the bloods to the lab.  The lab phones me later the same day.  Is that right??

Thanks

My vets used to use Idexx then for reasons best known to themselves changed to another lab who will not deal with me direct so it was a faff when timing is crucial to ring my vets, wait for them to check they've got the results & if not to chase up the lab & (remember to) get back to me! So I just get my vet to draw bloods, stick it in a tube (no kit required) & drive to Idexx who ring me direct (thanks Larry) usually within 2 hours. Simples!

the envalope just comes with the kit if you were sending it though the post :) like wolf (sorry carnt remember your name now) said if your taking it you dont need it but was just answering that it dont cost anyless if you take it yourself :) xx

Great, that all sounds v simple.

Bet my vet is going to cost more than £7 to draw bloods though - they seem to charge £25-30 a consult, regardless of what it's for. :(

well it dont have to be a vet do it the nurse can do it too so that should be alot cheaper!!??
xx

we were lucky it only cost £12 and that was vet doing it but was told if vet busy the nurse would do it and the cost would be £5 something :) xx

Blood draw for me is £16.00

K

Blood draw for me is £31.00.

I have to pay the full consult for bloods.  £37 and then the cost of the testing on top.

blimey cost me £57 for the vet/lab for one test in 2008.

(unusually) no consult fee, £9 to do the bloods. I figured they more than made up for it charging top whack for hips/elbows!

Do you phone idexx and order ? I have never used them before and have no clue what to do .... I have done a search and not quite sure what i'm looking for or what to ask for . If anyone could help that would be great ... Guess i also need to know the cost from my vet for drawing bloods

I echo your questions strawberry - I've looked at the Idexx website but I can't see anything about progesterone blood tests for breeding...

I just e-mailed them on: labhelp@idexx.com and they arrived within a couple of days.

I asked for: 1 x kit for a vaginal swab (you may not want this but I did because of Esme's misses - I'm going to cover every avenue possible this time!) and 3 x pre-mate testing kits, gave my address and hey presto!

Now I'm really confused!  What is the pre-mate testing kit?  I thought my vet will take the bloods and I will take these to the lab.  (Or post them back to the lab.)

Why do I need either a vaginal swab or a premate testing kit?!

you dont need pre-mate thats a different test that can be done instead of progestrone ive never used them but alot of ppl dont think there very good! not sure about swab? is that to detect infection or change in sells??? xx

So Idexx also make the Premate tests, they don't just do the progesterone blood testing?  (B/c Pedlee said to email Idexx for the premate test.)

idexx do the progestrone test :) ive had the test kits from them , dont know if they sell the premate too xx

"Now I'm really confused!  What is the pre-mate testing kit?  I thought my vet will take the bloods and I will take these to the lab.  (Or post them back to the lab.)"

"PreMate" is the brand name of one of the kits marketed for vets to use "in house".  It is a chemical reagent kit that measures the approximate amount of progesterone present in a serum blood sample.  The results are approximate and not 100% accurate but give a good enough indication of the approximate level of progesterone found in the sample tested.  The results are interpreted from a colour change. 

When the serum is added to the well in the kit and the chemical reagent dropped in a colour change will occur.  Some kits use blue dye others pink (forget which PreMate is).  Each kit is supplied with a colour chart for comparison which the vet uses to compare to the results.

For example, if the colour shown in the well is bright blue this indicates a level of  0 -1 ng/ml, if light blue then a level of 1 - 2. 5 ng/ml, faint blue is a level of 2.5 - 5 ng/ml and finally clear i.e. no colour then level is greater than 5 ng/ml of progesterone present.  Same principle applies if the dye is pink, dark pink, light pink, faint pink and clear.

With the Idexx test, serum is posted to the lab and the sample is analysed at the lab (using a machine) and the level of progesterone present in the sample is given as an accurate reading not an approximation.

A vaginal swab kit is a sterile swab which is used to collect the top layer of skin lining the upper part of the vagina.  High levels of Oestrogen causes changes in the superficial skin cells collected on the swab and transferred to a slide which is stained and examined under a microscope.  Red blood cells, white blood cells and bacteria are also seen on the slide. 

When a bitch has high levels of circulating oestrogen (indicative of imminent or recent ovulation) the shape of the superficial cells changes, they become cornified (think of cornflake shaped).  They start off like nicely fried eggs, nice smooth "white" and a good sized "yolk" (nucleus). Once cornified, the "yolk" (nucleus) is not visible and the "white" is angular and has flat sides! 

Vaginal swab testing needs to be done more than once so that the progression in the change of shape of the cells examined can be followed because the cornified stage can last up to about 6 days before the cells start changing back to their perfect "fried egg" shape.  Therefore, with only one test it is impossible to know if you are at the start of the cornification or the end, clearly if you are past the end the cells will be a mixture of perfect "fried eggs" and ragged "fried eggs" which confirms a bitch is entering metoestrus and no longer fertile.  Mating should be timed for the day the cells become fully cornified or as soon as possible afterwards.

That is a great explanation Chris...

> Now I'm really confused!  What is the pre-mate testing kit?

Sorry if I've confused you, it wasn't my intention. I requested the pre-mate testing kit from Idexx, via e-mail, which IS the progesterone blood test (take the kit to your Vet, ask them to take the blood and put the sample in the envelope and post to Idexx, or take it to them if you are local).

> Why do I need either a vaginal swab or a premate testing kit?!

As I said you may not want to do this but because my bitch has missed on 2 seasons now, despite good ties, I want to cover every angle. The vaginal swab kit from Idexx checks for bacterial growths which may be present and preventing a successful pregnancy. The swab is sent to Idexx who will advice if the growths need treating with antibiotics or are insignificant and require no treatment.

I hope I've cleared that up!

Just to clarify Chris, the vaginal swab kit isn't for reading the correct time to mate, it is just to check for bacterial growths which may require antibiotic treatment. It only needs doing on day 2/3 of the season.

Thanks Pedlee, wasn't sure if poster was referring to the option offered by Idexx for microbiology or whether they were referring to their vet taking a swab for cytology alongside using the "PreMate" test at their vets, I was of course answering for cytology.