Dogs like people are not perfect and you very rarely see a dog move perfectly well never really but some do better than others and we will keep trying to obtain the perfect dog but we know we will never succeed.

Too true.  We all know from breed books how shoulders,legs, hips, elbows and hocks all  need to be well aligned to give good gait but too wide or narrow a rib cage can throw the best of everything out of kilter.  Knowing what perfection should be and getting 100% sound in all is not so easy to achieve.

    > All the more reason to have a vet present then.

And where would one draw the line - how bad would the gait have to be for the dog to be excluded. Watch a group of a dozen dogs and I would be surprised if any one of them moved absolutely correctly so what would the vet be looking for exactly certainly not the perfect movement they could go months to find that.  Let just try to get judges to exclude really lame dogs for the time being, I think most do but there do seem to be some for whom movement does not seem important and we need to correct that.

> And where would one draw the line - how bad would the gait have to be for the dog to be excluded.

Agreed: a vet can check for disease signs on arrival at the show (as is done with cats), but to check every dog for lameness would take the whole day.

To that effect, that job has/is delegated to the judges. I would hope they were experienced enough in the breed/s to pick that up.

I just copyed it from what she put. My mistake just an error as I was typing to fast, no need to be sarcastic.

All right?

Oh and I didnt mention thoroughbred horse's.

Knowing what perfection should be and getting 100% sound in all is not so easy to achieve.

Too true, no matter how hard one tries to find any animal moving really well is rare as is finding one with a perfect conformation and that includes us.

so whats  your point here

Yes, we are talking about showing I was just replieing to an earler post by MarianneB look on first page third from the bottom.

Do you show Jocelyn?

> Oh and I didnt mention thoroughbred horse's.

Was that referring to my post? Thoroughbreds didn't come into that, only the analogy between pacing dogs for soundness and horses for soundness.... It's not dissimilar. With respect Jocelyn, it's sometimes confusing as to what you are alluding :)

I can't get back to page one now, but if this is the reply you (Jocelyn) say was in response to me:
I do think that the breeds that are of most concern are unlikly to become Obedience or field trial champions or take part in agility, simply because they couldnt do them with breathing problems, slipping knee caps etc. So they would'nt be there.

then you couldn't be more wrong! Have you not read the list of the 15 breeds? One of them is the German Shepherd. You most DEFINITELY will see them in all sorts of working competitions. And I believe there is currently at least one Pug competing -and doing well -in agility. I don't know much about some of the breeds concerned but would have thought the Bloodhound was also a breed worked quite a lot within its own specialist field.

> If the dog is 'pacing' or not 'moving correctly' they such be sent out.
>
>

A dog can pace (not a fault of construction just a lazy pace used) or of course can move in any manner of unacceptable (for assessing gait) ways that does not denote unsoundness.

A dog can get into the habit of crabbing as it pulls against the lead etc.

And of course a dog may step on something whilst in the ring or have it's foot trodden on by the handler or someone ringside just as they go in.

Much lameness is likely to be transitory if it is from a slight injury, same as with us if we stub our toe.

A dog can pace (not a fault of construction just a lazy pace used) or of course can move in any manner of unacceptable (for assessing gait) ways that does not denote unsoundness.

I have a big, very fit, very active male dog that paces if I handle him at shows, paces if my husband handles him, but does not do it if my 15 year old daughter handles him! (So guess who now shows him LOL.)

> I do think that the breeds that are of most concern are unlikly to become Obedience or field trial champions or take part in agility, simply because they couldnt do them with breathing problems, slipping knee caps etc. So they would'nt be there.
>

Well there is a champion Pug that competes VERY succesfully in agility :)

Why are we doing this headless chicken act again ? -  roughly 37% of all dogs in the UK are Kc registered - of those only around 2% are in the show ring - yep that's 2 % - come ON folks just what is going on here - is this REALLY the most important issue facing Uk dogdom ? - even if our detractors managed to stop all dog showing would this have ANY impact on dogs - hell no ! - the show world is just an easy target   like a sqeaky toy the usual 'bullies'  press us and we make a noise - for goodness sake why can't we stand up for oursleves and say ENOUGH - after all it's that tiny 2% that's at the forefront of health testing and funding research - it's that 2% that study  the complexities of genetics and  know our COI's off by heart   - we're the ones that import new blood and issue puppy contracts -we're the ones calling for tighter breeding accreditation and we're the ones that subject puppy buyers to the third degree before parting with one of our precious pups - ...WHY are we made out to be the enemy of pedigree dogs ? why do we LET them do this to us - and WHY is the KC not sticking two fingers up and defending those that REALLY are trying to make a difference - this is just another rolling over  by the KC, I can guarantee not a single BOB winner will be disqualified under this new ruling it's purely a sop to our enemies - and will be used as justification for more attacks on the show world.

Yvonne

May be because it is the 2% of the 37% who are doing their best to improve the health of dogs (well most of the 2%) and it is that 2% that are being attacked all the time. May be we would like to be ostriches but we are not allowed.

Do agree however that there is a far bigger problem in the 98% that are not associated with showing but they are not the ones continually expected to improve the lot of all dogs, the showing 2% are. My way of thinking is that any activity undertaken with your dog is a good idea as if you work in partnership with your dog you are far more likely to be aware of your dogs welfare and it is going to get the attention all dogs deserve you are also likely to be far more concerned about who and where you buy from.

If you read my post corectly, I used the bulldog as an example.
Yes I have read the list of the 15 breeds, the KC sent me a newletter which listed them.

The German shepherd is one of the most wonderfull working dogs we have, some of the show dogs have been bred with such sloping rear ends they can hardly walk. You would'nt see those at agilitiy.

The point I am trying to make is that those breeds suffering from those conditions mentioned can't take part in any physical activitie because they are not fit enough. 

I am NOT saying all dogs of any particular breed cant take part, that would be stipid, it's not the case.

You see many different breeds competing but if a dog had for example sliping kneecaps it wouldnt be competing, so maybe thats why vets will be attending championship shows and not agility ect. Because sadly at show's you will see these conditions.

I hope that clears that up. For goodness sake, you showing folk have created this problum, (not all of you I am not tarring you all with the same brush). A lot of damage has been done by the way SOME breeds have been bred.

This has to stop and hopefully things are begining to inprove and not before time.

Don't bother to replie to me, I wont be looking at this again.

Of course the backyard breeders have not caused these problems either, just showing people?
Shame you can't engage in a vigorous discussion for the benefit of dogs.

Jeff.

>The point I am trying to make is that those breeds suffering from those conditions mentioned can't take part in any physical activitie because they are not fit enough. 

>I am NOT saying all dogs of any particular breed cant take part,

Those two statements completely contradict each other.

> Oh, by the way it is I believe £30 to report to the KC and we have all had dogs go lame but the inexperienced do not always realise when the dog is on the lead only when they see it running free.
>
> Why is that?  Is it to do with the type of collar and/or lead and the way the dog is held??

A certain well known dog handler many years ago had polio as a boy it left him with noticeable movement problems and all his dogs learnt to compensate for his difficulties, although sometimes they would end up appearing to lean towards him when moving so sometimes perhaps the handler can cause an effect but not to the degree it would make a dog lame, which is more likely to be caused by an injury.

The ONLY way this can work is if dogs who win the required number of CCs then claim that Champion certificate, they must forward all neccessary heath clearances for that breed to the KC or submit to a health inspection.

So Champion Blah Blah ( subject to KC approval) would be just that ...only on approval until proven fit. this cannot be done on the day...crazy idea and wont work...vets cant have xray machines or MRI scanners at show for goodness sake.
Much easier to set up, administer and will have the knock on effect of entrants would be up to date with health tests as their routine/ethos.

Nothing would encourage the slack, lip-service testers more than this. Their dogs would have to be 'CC' ready or face the worry that they would fail the chamion inspection.

Puppies and those who are not safely considered ready for final clear results would have to get one more CC after their final clearance.

actually...despite my previous rant this is a good idea Toolz - but it should be across all breeds and be based on actual health testing not the say so of the show vet on the day

Yvonne

Jocelyn you do seem to have some very strange ideas about dogs I would be interested to know just what your experience is, not showing, that much is obvious due to your erroneous  statements but you do not seem to know anything of any other activities either so do we take it that when you make a pronouncement you are talking for the pet owner although most of them I have contact with seem to have a good general knowledge of dogs and they mostly do not coincide with yours.

> actually...despite my previous rant this is a good idea Toolz - but it should be across all breeds and be based on actual health testing not the say so of the show vet on the day
>
>

Precisely!!

Nothing can be done 'on the day' that really means anything.

A Champion Certificate could be the ultimate showing and health accolade...now there's a thing.
We would soon see adverts saying " My dogs are CC ready" :-)

The beauty of this scheme ( and I know you are reading this Bill :-) ) is that it filters back to peoples actions before they show their dogs - a whole culture change with out the humiliation of withholding on the day and the hoohah that it would bring.

A win- win situation as far as I can see.

And when I went on a small dog obedience course I saw both a bulldog and a pekinese doing excellent obedience work.

> I do think that the breeds that are of most concern are unlikly to become Obedience or field trial champions or take part in agility, simply because they couldnt do them with breathing problems, slipping knee caps etc. So they would'nt be there.

As the breeder of a pug, who having as a pup qualified and competed at Crufts in the breed classes is now succesfully competing in agility and is now grade 3, I object to this sweeping statement.  It is this sort of thinking, based on generalisation rather than knowledge that leads to breeds being classified as unhealthy in the eyes of the public.  By the way, he is not unique, several of my pugs have done "have a go agility", and 2 more are about to start training for the serious stuff as they have shown considerable apptitude (and fitness).

> The ONLY way this can work is if dogs who win the required number of CCs then claim that Champion certificate, they must forward all neccessary heath clearances for that breed to the KC or submit to a health inspection.
>

Excellent idea!

I believe to get the French title dogs have to pass inspection for temperament and health before the title is granted.

I too think this may be the way to go, in the case of most health tests the KC already has the information needed so it would only be a very few who would need to send in proof. The could start right now with hips, elbows and eyes as they have that info to hand.

The ONLY way this can work is if dogs who win the required number of CCs then claim that Champion certificate, they must forward all neccessary heath clearances for that breed to the KC or submit to a health inspection.

Seriously, I wonder if this has been thought of???  Sometimes, when we're looking for a solution, we can't see the wood for the trees.  I think that you should submit it to the KC Toolz. :)

West coast...I think they may be reading this ;-)

I do think it is a cool catch phrase though dont you?

                                                          "Are your dogs CC ready?"

I dont mind if they pinch it!

I think they may be reading this

Can we be sure?  I've been thinking about it for years and haven't come up with anything workable like that!!  Well done you!!  :) 
Just a shame that it's only going to effect such a small percentage of the UK dog population. :(  But great to put our own house in order. :) :)

Love the phrase!! :) :) :)

Anyone got an appropriate email address to send a link to this thread to other than Jeff Sampson?

I have to say I still don't like the idea. To me, it would make far more sense to go the Swedish way of only allowing dogs with the relevant health tests (of good enough result) to be bred from, but why stop Joe Bloggs enthusiastic pet owner with just one showable dog from turning that dog into a Champiopn? As I said before, there are dogs that for various reasons should not be bred from, such as having a too high hip score, but that can still be fit and healthy and may be the owner's only dog that can be shown. Should we turn exhibitors away from showing because the dog's hip score is too high, if that dog is never going to be bred from? And where do you draw the line? What if the breed average is 10 and the score is 12 -where other breeds have much higher BMS -should that dogs with a score of 12 be banned from gaining a Champion title then? What if a Cavalier has a clear heart at 1, 2 and 3 years of age and becomes a Champion, then at 4 years of age develops a heart murmur -what happens to the Champion title? 4 years is too early for one to develop a murmur but many do -we'd need a crystal ball. The same goes for other breeds as well of course, it was just using an example of a breed I know. Also what about cataracts? I know of a Champion bitch in one of my breeds who was fit and healthy, became a Champion, had great hips etc, then aged 6 failed her annual eye test. Not all conditions can be tested for for life, so it would make a mockery out of the whole thing if you end up with Champions that a year or so after winning their title fails their annual test.

> What if a Cavalier has a clear heart at 1, 2 and 3 years of age and becomes a Champion, then at 4 years of age develops a heart murmur

I think we would have to take this on the chin.
Two and a half years sems to be the cut-off point for heart and MRI as far as breeding protocols are concerned.

I have a CC winning dog who has just failed a scan so I may wish to show him ( he has no symptoms) but fully accept that he could not become a champion under this new proposal. I would not allow him to be used champion or no champion but there are others who would perhaps need 'help against their own nature' shall we say, to avoid the flattery of being asked to use their 'champion' dog.
Yes there would be winners and losers using this method but it would be the dogs who would benefit I think.

Yes quite agree it is at the breeding level that checks are needed, and I believe it will come with the ABS restrictions eventually being applied across the board.

I think the ABS is being used as a testing ground for tighter rules as it is drawing those most likely to want it, who do them already and once it becomes the norm, those who might have not bothered may feel enough peer pressure to want to belong to that group that test.

The kennel club I feel are afraid of loosing too many of the casual folk that breed away from KC registration, and hope by introducing various rules gradually they won't.

The started with the 6 litter limit and upper age of 8.

Then added in not mated before a year.

Now from next year the Limit of litters is to be 4, and no litters after two C sections.

Just waiting for them to introduce Mandatory Hip scoring and eye testing, but hope they don't set an arbitrary score limit as so often it needs a case by case approach as to what is too high a score in a  given situation/breed.

A aquantince of mine decided last week she wanted a pup so weekend gone she went and picked up whippet pup for 250 and for a extra 100 she could have it kc registered no health checks no nothing, yet people who show are always the root of all evil when it comes to breeding we can't win.

Think if you were not allowed to register your pups unless both dam and sire had acceptable results from all the tests recommended for the breed it would reduce the income for a while but once it was established it would really boost the standing of the KC registered pup as in the mind of the GP it would be buying the very best they could and not just in the mind it really would be the best possible choice but they must not be led to believe that a registered pup from tested parents = a perfect pup. Living things just do not come perfect they only come with the best possible chance.

do think that the breeds that are of most concern are unlikly to become Obedience or field trial champions or take part in agility, simply because they couldnt do them with breathing problems, slipping knee caps etc. So they would'nt be there.

My dogs are one of the 15 breeds mentioned and I can say that I know of quite a lot of the breed who do agility and obedience, therefore your statement is quite incorrect.