We are looking at breeding our working cocker, the breeder we're in contact with has a show cocker, would they be compatible or am I better to stick to another working cocker?

I've only recently found this site and it's a fantastic minefield of information, so thank you

Any comments would be appreciated.

Kaz

if your breeding to produce good working dogs and this stud you have found also works and shows and is a good worker then i dont see a problem useing him at all xx

Unfortunately i have to disagree. 

The type in working and show cookers is hugely different, they actually look like different breeds and their behavioural traits are not similar either.

They are as different as (English) Cockers and American cockers who originally were the same breed.

Here are photos of Working cockers: http://www.felsteadgundogs.com/PhotogalleryC.htm
and show Cockers:http://www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk/aboutpage.htm

thats why i said if she wants them for working i dont see a problem, they will never be show dogs ,ive seen working cocker all look so differnt looks arent importend xx

thats why i said if she wants them for working i dont see a problem,

Surely if they are wanted for working then a good WORKING stud is to prefer above one that's probably never worked in its life. I don't know much about Cocker but I do know there are pure show line Golden Retrievers that no longer has the will to retrieve.

Surely if they are wanted for working then a good WORKING stud is to prefer

yes very true! but if this boy also works and is a good worker thats why i said what i said :) thats all!

some do still work and show ive read on here many a time that :) xx

Working ability is inheritted and so if breeders are planning to produce working puppies, then they need to use good working stock, carrying good working lines for generations. :)
There was no mention of the show cocker stud having any working ability.

Hi Kaz

What are you trying to achieve by breeding your bitch?

If you are just wanting to produce puppies for pets then I would seriously advise you not to do it! Breeding is not for the feint hearted, things can go wrong with the mating and whelping processes and then you have the responsibility of finding good homes for your puppies - puppies for which you will (or should) have a lifelong responsibility. There can be great heartache on the way, people have lost their bitches during whelping and puppies sometimes die.  Even reputable breeders are having troubles finding good homes for pups at the moment.

Breeding can be a very expensive business - it would be a big mistake to expect to make money out of a litter. Your bitch will need to have various health tests before she is bred (and make sure the dog is health tested too!) and these can be pricey.

I'm making the assumption that you are not wanting to breed puppies to work or you'd just be considering working stud dogs - or am I wrong?

and conversely if puppy buyers hoping for a chocolate Box Cocker (show type) buy a puppy from mixed heritage they may be very disappointed in the appearance of there puppy if it follows the looks of the working parent.

They may also find it harder to manage as a pure pet, and certainly couldn't succesfully show or work it, even though it would be purebred and registered as a Cocker Spaniel.

Someone wanting a working dog would not go to someone who had used a show bred dog.

So the resulting puppies would not be helping either side of the breeds gene pool to produce quality.

I am in the process of trying to disuade an acquaintance from offering his working cocker at stud. I asked him if his dog had tested clear for various tests and he didn't know they needed to be tested :-(

I sent him the following link which lists the tests that should be undertaken and he had never even heard of the various issues let alone considered testing for them.

http://www.workingcockerhealthscreendirectory.com/healthissues.htm

> They may also find it harder to manage as a pure pet, and certainly couldn't succesfully show or work it, even though it would be purebred and registered as a Cocker Spaniel.

This is very true sadly - inexperienced pet owners take on Cocker puppies with mixed show/working heritage and can find the pup very different to how they expected in turns of activity levels & also looks. There are increasing numbers of working and show/worker mixes turning up in rescues for this very reason.

Although the Kennel Club will register pups from a mating between the two types of cockers, I really think it's far better to stick to one or the other. 

Why don't you ask the breeder of your girl for advice - they can tell you if there will be a suitable demand for pups of your girl's breeding in sensible working homes.    I know there was a glut of cocker pups in the last quarter of last year, and people were finding really suitable homes were few and far between.

Jo

working cockers are not suitable for the adverage pet home,I have seen children in tears at training class being dragged behind one on a scent, or chaseing leaves. They are fantistic dogs but not for pets.

> I know there was a glut of cocker pups in the last quarter of last year, and people were finding really suitable homes were few and far between.

Yes I know well-known breeders who are being left with unsold puppies for much longer than normal. Too many Cockers (both types) are being bred at the moment for the homes available.

I have a working cocker and lover her personality, energy, looks and everything that comes with her (including a coat that doesnt need clipping!).  I wish K.C  would regester the working cocker & the show cocker as diff breeds. they are in my opinion very different.  If I wanted another working cocker I would want one frome a 'straight' mating, not mixed. I know people with show cockers that would not want a working. its what works for you.  I do wish though that when people who breed working cockers are selling pups they would be honest and say to potential owners that this is a working cocker and not a show type cocker.  each 'type' are not suitable for all homes/lifestyles.

Thank you for all your comments which have all been taken on board, breeding her is just something we are thinking about at the moment and we are looking/considering everything, hence my question.

I'd just like to add that Poppy is a fantastic pet even though she is a working cocker, she is an absolute joy to have around the home, she has a lovely personality and she is fantastic with my partners 4 year old when she visits every other weekend, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a working cocker as a pet.

Kaz

Thing is Kizzlecat, you are basing your advice on one dog and that one dog may well be the exception to the rule. Even it you breed your beautiful pet the traits of the pups may well be those of your bitches ancestors and you could finish up with some if not all the litter very unsuitable for pet homes and sadly you may find several returned to you as their new owners could not cope.

Not all pups will take after the parents when it comes to temperament and sadly some will get the worst of both worlds so I would not advice this mating rather use a working stud, you will have time whilst you deal with the health tests and looking for a suitable stud to hopefully get inquires from the working people and then you will know the extent of interest and if breeding a litter is a good idea.

As has been suggested start with asking the advice of the breeder and check that there is no endorsement in force, all ways assuming the breeder is a responsible one with knowledge and desire to help.

I agree with everything already said, we've had Working and Show Cockers in our family for over 35 years, they are so different, bred for different purposes altogether, completely different looks and unless there is a very good reason to breed something in or out done by an expert, IMO never the twain should they meet.

Due to the fact that any Tom, Dick or Harry now breeds, Show Cockers in particular are coming through with dodgy characters unless a good and experienced breeder is sourced, I'm also saddened to see that Working Cockers are now also being bred by the in-experienced and pet owner, won't be long before the lovely character you describe yours to have will also be ruined by mixing the strains and by people breeding who have no understanding of what makes a good breeding dog/bitch.

Due to the fact that you are even asking such a question of mixing the two strains I would leave breeding well alone for the people who understand the breed and not add to the thousands of mismatches and dodgy characters already out there. :-)

I object to Carringtons comments, I purely asked a simple question as a responsible dog owner/person as we have been offered a stud dog - a show cocker, I could have just accepted their offer and said yes, but instead, responsibly asked the question, this isn't something I'm looking at lightly and as my previous post states, I have taken all your comments into consideration....... if i'd come on here and excitedly told you all i'd mated my working cocker with a show cocker then you'd have had grounds to slate me. Everybody mates their dog for the first time, everybody was inexperienced to start with!

We haven't even decided whether we are going to mate her yet, as I said it's just something we have thought about as probably do all dog owners who own a bitch, then they make the decision to mate their dog or have them spayed!

Kaz

> I object to Carringtons comments, I purely asked a simple question as a responsible dog owner/person as we have been offered a stud dog - a show cocker, I could have just accepted their offer and said yes, but instead, responsibly asked the question, this isn't something I'm looking at lightly and as my previous post states, I have taken all your comments into consideration.

And that's all credit to you for doing your homework first - so many pet Cocker owners don't do this but you have and hopefully you've been given lots to think about before you make any decision. I would also add that a responsible owner of a show type dog is unlikely to offer their dog to owners of working type bitches for the reasons given above but sadly there are stud owners who don't have the necessary breed knowledge or those that simply look to make money from stud fees.

We haven't even decided whether we are going to mate her yet, as I said it's just something we have thought about as probably do all dog owners who own a bitch, then they make the decision to mate their dog or have them spayed!

I'm sorry that you have taken hinderance to my comments, I'm just stating facts, everyone who owns a bitch thinks of breeding them or not? No really that is also not fact, only a very small minority should ever think of breeding, and most pet bitch owners never do think of breeding it should never be an either or, if your bitch has shown to be a good working dog, if you have her gundog trained or work her, enter trials and she shows to be of excellent stock that is when you may feel her to be of good breeding stock, in doing these things and mixing with other working dogs you also find reputable stud dogs too, if you are serious this is where you start. :-)

Start off by reading The Book of the Bitch, that will give you some pros and cons to think about regarding whether to breed at all. If you're breeding purely for pets, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea to use a show cocker, as most working cockers are pretty high drive and a show type might calm things down a bit. Or you could use a good working stud and sell to people who want to work / do agility etc. But you'll be lucky to find any successful show cocker who does much in the working field as well, they really are very different types.

> If you're breeding purely for pets, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea to use a show cocker, as most working cockers are pretty high drive and a show type might calm things down a bit.

I completely disagree with this & actually think it's quite irresponsible to suggest this (sorry but this is my breed and I feel very strongly about it) You have no way of controlling the temperament of resulting puppies from a show/working mix; you're just as likely to get high drive pups with the longer hair of a show type!

I agree with JaneS, but good for you for asking the question.

If you're breeding purely for pets, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea to use a show cocker, as most working cockers are pretty high drive and a show type might calm things down a bit.

WHY, would you want to 'deflate' that personality by 'calming thing down?' If you want a working cocker it is the personality that most folk love. for me it was anyway. I would no way want to do anything to 'calm it down'  what you need/must do is use that energy. i.e. I work mine (as a hobby) and do various clicker training with her plus obviously the basic obedience that makes her a lovely dog to live with. the one thing people always comment on is she has a wonderful personality. 

Hi Kaz,

I don't breed but I think you need to think long and hard as to why you actually want to breed from your girl. What is she bringing to the gene pool of Cockers? Is she KC Reg and has she had all her health tests done and are they good results? These have to be done if you are considering it, no point breeding from untested stock, people are now looking to sue breeders if these haven't been done and issues arise when they could of been prevented.

Get yourself onto some seminars about breeding. The KC often have them running as to local ringcraft clubs.
Here is a list of things I asked about breeding before, I have looked into it and back away for now as I personally need a lot of cash behind me should something go wrong. Also a mentor in your breed is very helpful, not only choosing the right stud for your bitch but also to help with matings, whelping and everything inbetween.
Cost of raising a litter:
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=1164981;hl=#pid1164981

Also worth thinking about how you put your bitch at risk each and every time she has a litter, people do loose bitches and then have a whole litter to hand rear. You've probably read of one person on here recently who's just lost a pup at 11days old, its heartbreaking for them..

This is very true sadly - inexperienced pet owners take on Cocker puppies with mixed show/working heritage and can find the pup very different to how they expected in turns of activity levels & also looks. There are increasing numbers of working and show/worker mixes turning up in rescues for this very reason.

Absolutely Jane and I have been approached to help a couple who took on a pup a few weeks ago from somebody else who couldn't cope with him and now they have the same problem.

This will be his third home and he is only 5 1/5 months old :-(

I didn't say I was suggesting it, I just said it wasn't necessarily a terrible idea. I don't think the OP knows enough about breeding in general to do it, but a knowledgable cocker person might want to tone down the working drive with a show cocker. I would like to see more movement towards reuniting the different types, I know they have probably gone too far apart for this to be possible, but as an American cocker owner and a lover of cockers in general I do think it's a shame working and show types in these and other breeds look so utterly different.

> I know they have probably gone too far apart for this to be possible, but as an American cocker owner and a lover of cocker's in general I do think it's a shame working and show types in these and other breeds look so utterly different.

but would you like the American and English cocker to be integrated and taking away their now individual identity.

It is basically the same except that the working and Show cockers are still on the same breed register.

There are other breeds where certain dogs are never mated together yet still remain under the same banner.  Actually just like within show cockers, where Parti Colours and Solids should nto be mated together.

Lucy Dogs, do you want to put the Yankee back in the melting pot too. Just one register for Cockers, that would be working, show and American.

I think they should either be integrated, or like someone else suggested, registered as different breeds. Now that you can't show docked dogs at some of the biggest Champ shows, there's going to be even less interest in working the show types anyway, so it's probably too late for integration.

That surprises me Lucy, did you really mean you would like your Yankees to be on the same register as Cockers?

I'm quite used to just calling him a cocker tbh when people ask what breed I have, unless I actually have him with me, as that's what my American cocker forum calls them as they are based in America. .Joe Public isn't interested in the differences between English and American, and he's not a show dog (very often). Cockers are cockers whether English or American, still lovely little dogs! I wouldn't actively seek a mergence, but if for some reason people wanted one I wouldn't vote against. I think we're safe though, English & American cockers are almost as different as cockers and Cavaliers by now. And yes, working and show cockers (either English or American) are very different too, and as it's probably too late to merge the type, it might well be best to separate the breeds. At least I think most cocker people are tolerant of the other types, unlike the GSD / Alsatian mess!

That is interesting Lucy and very sensible attitude if I may say so, must say I am not sure that those with show Yankees would agree but may be they would.

> I didn't say I was suggesting it, I just said it wasn't necessarily a terrible idea. I don't think the OP knows enough about breeding in general to do it, but a knowledgable cocker person might want to tone down the working drive with a show cocker.

I don't think there is any situation where a serious breeder of Working Cockers would consider this a reason for using a show strain dog - you couldn't guarantee it would work anyway (going by the pet mixed working/show type dogs I've come across) In the past, I can think of one well-known breeder who did use a show dog to improve I think the heads of his working line dogs but that was back in the 80s - it wouldn't happen now. Today it's generally just those breeding for the pet market who will mix types (sometimes to get certain colours and sometimes because they are unaware of the differences themselves).

Despite all this I'm not actually in favour of a separate register for show & working strain dogs - there is no reason why two strains cannot co-exist within the breed as long as both breeders and puppy buyers educate themselves about the differences so they can make sensible choices. Separating the strains for registration purposes would close off the options for future breeders if they ever needed to make use of dogs from different lines at some stage eg should a catastrophic health problem crop up in one strain or another.

I wonder what sort of replies the OP would get by asking the same question on a working cocker site/ forum or gundog forum, I suspect they would be very similar but might be worth asking as though some do work their dogs on here the majority show.

To the OP it might put things into perspective as its always nice to see both sides of the coin.