Ok
DAY 1 - 27/12
DAY 3 - 29/12 - just below 2ng
DAY 5 - 31/12 - 2.5ng
We are re testing on 4th (DAY 9) ...And have pre booked the CHV with another vet on 5th . . . I know I have to wait until it goes above 5 - just wondered what others would inturpret from this so far ?

Look like normal results - I wouldn't normally start testing until day 7 or 8. At least you will know you haven't missed her!!!

i tested day 9 1st time and didnt need another 1 has the reading was good and would of ovulated 2days later we got 3 very good mateing and a large litter due anyday :) the very best of luck to you and your girl xxx

We kind of knew we were testing way too early,but found it hard to predict when she ovulated last season as we were using saliva and ovulation pads - so we thought she might have been an early ovulater and we'd missed - so started with early blood testing this time!

I thought the CHV vaccine was given 7-10 days after mating? And then again 7-14 days before due date.

You can also give it before mating - we do.

S, why do you give it before mating?

I mean, the mating might not even take place for various reasons, so it seems more cost effective to do it afterwards?  Or is there something I've overlooked? Thx

Snomaes - Is there any paticular amount of time before mating to administer it ? I'd rather have my girl take it and she dosent fall pregnant than not take it,im not fussed about wasting the money,just want to take every precaution I can - but as we are having the vaccine at a different vet to the one doing the progesterone testing its hard to co incide the vaccine with ovulation / mating day - so would be easier to do before mating!

From Merial's website;

Dosage and administration

Two 1-ml doses of vaccine, administered by subcutaneous route, according to the following schedule:
First injection:From heat to 7 - 10 days after the presumed date of mating.
Second injection: 1 to 2 weeks before the expected date of whelping.

I normally take ours 7 or 8 days before mating. Reason for doing it? The vaccine is obviously perfectly safe to give after mating, I just prefer the idea of giving it before the little foetuses are there :)
Having lost a litter of 10 puppies to CHV we would never have another litter without using the vaccine.

> We kind of knew we were testing way too early,but found it hard to predict when she ovulated last season as we were using saliva and ovulation pads - so we thought she might have been an early ovulater and we'd missed - so started with early blood testing this time!

Having had the same problem with a bitch that had me convinced that she never ovulated   I decided to test from day 1 this time around.  This was just a few weeks ago.  The bitch ovulated on day 4, so I had always missed her in the past!

That sounds good - we have it booked in for Wednesday which will before mating as she is not re progesterone tested until Tuesday and was worried that giving it before mating might be no good - but like you say I prefer the idea of it being there before any potential pups !

OOOH ! Testing day tomorrow! excited and nervous - I dont expect the level to be ready yet as she is still spotting pretty dark red - but she was flagging a little when she let my bitch clean her - but still not allowing our castrated male in the living room with her (poor boy).Tomorrow will be day 9....tick tock tick tock !

good luck :) xx

> she is still spotting pretty dark red

My bitches spot bright red right through and often bleed for up to 4 weeks so that is no indication of when they are ready for mating.

I think she may be the same Brainless,I seem to remember her bleeding dark for a while last season,she has been very out of sorts the last day or two,dosent want to sleep upstairs and seems depressed the poor thing

,dosent want to sleep upstairs and seems depressed the poor thing

this statment indecates shes very close to mating time now this is how my girls go :) xx

My vet has said we are looking for the level to be around 5 - but I was led to believe it should be at least 7 - 9 before we think of going ?

Copied from somewhere - can't remember where!

0-2  nmol/L           Baseline concentrations too early to estimate ovulation 
3 - 6 nmol /L        Minimum 2 days before ovulation expected however result of 3 - 4 nmol/L may persist for a week or longer before increasing. Earliiest estimating breeding 4 - 6 days but could be longer (re test needed)
7 - 12 nmol/L   Minimum 1 day before ovulation. Estimated window for breeding 3 - 5 days but could be longer  ( re test recommended) 
13 - 18 nmol/L   Ovulation impending or just occurred. Estimated breeding window 2 - 4 days  
19 - 31 nmol/L   Ovulation recently occurred. Estimated breeding window 1 - 3 days
32 - 64 nmol/L   Ova have matured, optimal potential for fertility.  Estimated breeding window  0 - 2 days
65 - 90 nmol/L   Ova have matured but aging, decreased potential for fertility.  Breed  at once
Above 90 nmol/L    Too late 

my readings are all mearusred in ng rather than nmol - does any one have a similar chart reading in ng ?

Here is the thread which gives a conversion rate:

http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=1179359;hl=progesterone%20levels#pid1179359

thanks :
I was going to say - ng readings will be lower then than nmol - and optimum breeding reading would be around 20 ng ?

From the conversion rate I'd read optimum time at between 10 - 20 ng.

brill still waiting for the call about todays results . . .

DAY 9 - Still at 2.5 (base level) re testing Friday . . . . .grrrr

DAY 1 - 27/12
DAY 3 - 29/12 - just below 2ng
DAY 5 - 31/12 - 2.5ng
DAY 9 - 4/1 - 2.5ng
DAY 12 - 7/1 - Re test

Frustrating isn't it ..LOL  Them eggs aint ready until there ready .. have a large one and chill out :) 
K

bloody frustrating! lol - thought she was getting close too ! its the 'on edge' feeling i hate - the waiting to drop everything to rush up to stud! especially when you have kids and work to arrange - do these eggs not realise that ?? lol

Your lucky you've got this far, still waiting for my girl to come in season, over a month late?

Good luck, I'm doing blood tests this time as she missed last time so I'll be the same as you soon if she ever comes in season.

She had her herpes vaccination today and the vet did a vaginoscopy for good measure - he said that he would estimate she'll be ready on Sunday - but we have more bloods booked in for Friday,and another vaginoscopy for good measure Friday evening - good job Minnie loves her vet trips!

Bloods Friday said not quite ready - Vaginoscopy Friday night said she was almost ready,vet said she might stand Saturday,but would peak Sunday IHO - Had more bloods and vaginoscopy booked for Monday - but are going to stud tomorrow just in case

GRRRRR . . . . Vaginoscopy Friday said she would be ready Sunday - so we took her,stud not overly interested,but on third attempt we got a 50 min (back and kneee breaking! for us) tie.
Had bloods done this morning to put our minds at ease (day 15) but they say still not ready . . .we were meant to go back tomorrow - so what would you do now? re test Wednesday with a view to go back Thursday? or stick with tomorrow ? Thursday will be day 18 . . .very confused now |:-(

When I had my dilemma, somebody suggested to me to go back 3 days after the initial mating, rather than 2 days, as sperm from a healthy/young stud dog can easily last that long.  That then widens your window of opportunity.  This is what we did.  It might be a good strategy in your case too?

I'm thinking that too - but the vets want to re test blood on Wednesday which would give us a result at 1pm ish - so might mean it would have to be Thursday - plus Im not certain the stud owner is available Wednesday

I just finished reading an excellent book called *Canine Reproduction* by Phyllis A Holst (a breeder, vet and reproductive specialist).  She says:

"Most bitches will stand for mating a few days before ovulation.  On the average, the first acceptance occurs two days before ovulation...the average bitch should have an excellent chance of conception if she is bred on her first day of acceptance.  But what about those few bitches that will accept unusually early?...In order to avoid that unfortunate event, I would advise breeding at first acceptance and then repeating the breeding approximately FOUR DAYS later.  This is a little different from the most widely used and most traditional plan of breeding (whenever) and repeating two days later.  Remembering that the goal is to achieve a mating during the bitch's fertile time, you will increase the odds of breeding a given bitch at the right time if you space the breedings a little further apart.  To breed two days apart might still result in a second breeding too early for a few bitches, but to wait four days should cover just about every possible individual, even the earliest breeders.  When circumstances allow and the stud dog is not in heavy demand, you could do three breedings, every two, three or four days and have a nearly foolproof breeding management program." (p 85-86)

Well, I thought that was interesting anyway!

Oooh! that gives me hope!

That is interesting, and backs up what I have been told/read too.  I am glad we went for matings 3 days apart.  I hope that will give us a really good chance.  Only time will tell of course!...

ive been reading and im also thinking if she dont catch (sorry im sure she will tho) and you needed get the blood test back that says ovulation started ,she could be that she dont quite reach that stage if you know what i mean ???
sorry dont want you to think im putting a downer on yoiu. the best of luck xxx

Do you mean maybe she is infertile ?
Its day 15 , dont know whether to wait untill day 17 for next pre mate in house test that will return result same day,take bloods tomorrow (day 16) and send to idexx which will return Wednesday (but with a day late result) or go up tomorrow as she is flagging still ?

Remember the eggs won't be ripe until two days after ovulation so if the blood test says she ovulated Tuesday or just ovulating Wednesday Thursday would, be fine and no need to go sooner.

My Myka has never been ready until day 18 at the earliest and mated until day 22.

piratebear, I'm no breeder (till next year) but based on what I've read so far, I'd stop the bloods and tests, as she is standing, and I'd just keep taking her up every 3 days for as long as she will stand - if the stud owner will agree to that.  Be interested to hear other thoughts though, as I'm always thinking - what if this were us, next year?!  What would we do?!

Oooh,its a nightmare,Day 17 will be Wednesday- and she is majorly flagging today  even humping our other female! in previous seasons she only flags for 4 days- which would make Wednesday - her last day of flagging ... so we can in theory take pre mates Friday day 19 to know wether to go up Sat or Sun.
My worry is that the premates are wrong,it has been known in the breed for them to ovulate at a very low reading ( and produce a litter) they tend to start really low so when they spike its not always registered on pre mate tests.
I guess (and hope) I am worrying for nothing and that Wednesday will say GO GO GO !

How far do you have to travel to the stud?

450 mile round trip

Personally I would do the bloods Wednesday and see what they come back as. As Brainless says eggs at ovulation are not ready for fertilisation until approx 3 days later, so IF bloods show progesterone levels indicating ovulation has occurred in last day or so a mating Thurdays should be fine. IME most people go to the stud far too early, the bitches may stand before ovulation but this is no indicator of optimal time for breeding. As a result bitchs miss or litter numbers can be low as sperm die before eggs are ripe for insemination. I have not had a bitch ready for first mating until at least day 18 and one was day 22.  

Out of interest what was her progesterone reading ?
K

she has spent all evening humping my other speyed female!

we were told the first two times it was just below 2ng - then just over - but it now transpires this was a 'guestimate' and that the tests are actually the inhouse tests which do not give a reading - just a 'ready' or not ready.Quite cross -but too late now to worry

out of interest - your girl who was not ready until day 18 - did she show signs earlier  ? i.e flagging /flirting ?

this is why I prefer my matetel tester!!

Ok .. in house tests are ok but not just as accurate. Yep all my girls will generally flag etc before they ovulate, they don't swell up too much and never stop bleeding throughout their season. Hence I don't rely on behavioural signs as there is too great a margin for error especially when travelling long distances to a stud.

K

we are having hell this evening - our two girls sleep in our room and Minnie (In season) is besides her self trying to hump my other girl,she wont settle,is just circling her constantly and trying to hump her,she is really stressing herself out,Im getting quite worried