I am having a little trouble picking a pup from my litter and would like some (unbiased) advice.  Firstly, I only have bitches.  3 at the moment and all unspayed and will remain that way.  One of the girls is mum to this litter and he is where my problem begins.
I have a lovely litter of 2 boys and 5 girls(not advertising as all taken).  I had posted earlier about a dog pup which was tiny compared to the rest of the litter and I love him.  He has fabulous markings, a great head and is such a fiesty little guy.  I would keep him in a minute but he is booked allready and he's a boy.  I don't have any idea how hard it is to keep an entire male with females or I would need to get him the chop.  I had a bitch that I had 'sort of' picked but today I decided that I would let fate decide and put her into the mix when the new owners came to choose and she was one of the ones that was picked today so now I don't have a bitch that I like from the litter(not that I really did anyway).  I don't like to not keep something from my litters but I am really stuck with this litter.  Maybe there are none good enough?  Or maybe that little guy should stay?  And if he should, what should I say to the family that think he is theirs?
My breeder friends have seen the litter and think different bitches are 'ok' but nothing spectacular stand out but everyone picked that dog.  In fact, everyone that has came to pick a pup has tried to pick that boy.  He's got something!
What would you do? 

Had a similar problem as you. What I did as I only keep bitches was to let the dog pup go to my closest friend, he lives with her, but he is in our joint names. I kept a bitch pup and though she did not really stand out, I thought she was lovely.
Anyway the dog puppy has already got 1cc and 1 rescc and my little girl usually wins her class at Ch shows, so I am really pleased.
As an added bonus we always travel to shows together and I have handled him on occasions.
So really I get the best of both worlds...
Anna

Thanks for your reply.  I'm glad you understand my dilemma.  I don't mean to sound heartless but I don't want to waste a space with a mediocre bitch(IYSWIM).  I would rather keep nothing.  I am kicking myself as I never kept anything from her last litter and the bitch that I did want to keep but didn't as she was very fine(like this boy) turned out to be spectacular(and in a pet home, spayed!).  I think this is why I like this boy so much as he reminds me of the bitch I should've kept.
I don't have anyone that could keep him or even run him on for me as most of the people I know keep bitches and wouldn't be interested in keeping a male.  I thought about one friend as she could use him for a stud but after she'd kept a pup herself, she would then be stuck herself! Everyone would rather bring in studs when needed. 
I am just worried about keeping him as I only have his mum which is the same breed.  I have 2 girls of another breed so if I had an accident and he mated either of them, it would be a disaster.  Is keeping them separate during seasons really an option?

Personally I know that I could not cope with keeping an entire male.!. I know that to a certain extent it does depend on the breed.But in my breed the males tend to become quite stressed and lose their appetite if they are living with in season bitches and I dont think it is fair on them. Also I live in a small property and my 3 bitches live indoors and there is noway that I could keep a male separated from them when necessary. I know that is not much help but perhaps some one else would be available to advise you more.
Anna

I know people who do manage it with a house of bitches and one/two dog/s. It all depends on your set up and if you think you can manage.
At the end of the day you bred this litter and if you wish to keep this boy then so be it.
Don't look at it that you should feel the need to keep something, if nothing, including this boy is good enough then don't keep any..Sounds harsh but we can only keep so many dogs in our household, so what we choose has to be the best..

I don't breed, but you should be deciding at the last possible moment as to what you are going to have, don't let anyone take any more guaranteed picks until you've made your decision :-)

I know people who have bred litters and there not be anything in them that they wish to keep so they don't. There is no hard and fast rule and you have to live with whatever you keep, so make sure you're happy with the decision and not what others may or may not be thinking/saying...

if you have promised him to the family and they are offering a good home then you such stick to your word.

I have two entire bitches, an entire male and a neutered male. I find it manageable when one of the bitches in season  but at the same time you can never trust them alone. (If I have to go out the boys are upstairs and the girls down). The entire dog does drive me mad when its the middle of the season as he pants a lot and wont just settle down but thats not his fault and he has never tried it on with them. When we got our neutered male I hadn't expected him to be a problem but he is infact worse than the entire male, trying his luck at every opportunity! It is a bit of a mad house when one of them is in season but we do cope and it is only twice a year for us (both bitches are yearly with their seasons).

Have no idea about picking a pup in terms of looking for something for the show ring (that's not my scene & not sure if it's yours), but if you're selecting a pup to keep then in my opinion it's got to be a pup that you really like.

I've got 5 dogs, 2 entire males & 2 of the girls are entire. I don't find the mix a problem, and quite frankly when the girls come into season it's a bit of a pain, but it's not rocket science to keep them all apart and happy. So sex wise it wouldn't be a problem to me, I would just be picking the pup that I felt would fit in and the pup that I really liked.

I've only bred 1 litter so far, but have helped raise 10 with breeder/mentor/friend. I've followed her selection regime, which works for us (our dogs go to a variety of work homes so looking for particular characteristics from the very minute they're born) and basically I do the chosing, with a little leeway depending on the experience of the owner and the job the pup is going to do. But I don't make my mind up where pups go until 6 weeks as that's when their characters have come through and I know what I'm looking at.

Don't know what age your pups are, but I think, as breeder, then you are entitled to first pick. Though I realise if you've already given an indication that a particular pup will go to a particular person that may feel difficult about that. Would it be that bad if you changed your mind about a pup? A prospective family has spent very little time bonding, whereas you have had plenty of time to bond. There are many ways you can explain a change in pup ... is there another pup that you think would quite adequately suit your owners?

I would go for the pup that I really liked and thought would fit into the existing set up :-) Not nice to disappoint people, but would they really be disappointed for long?

Sorry, edited to say that accidents are really very avoidable ... different rooms and crates come to mind! It really is quite manageable ;-)

Two things:

If you want to breed for the show ring, you will want the best or decide to let someone else have the best to show it.

If you are breeding to a long term plan then you keep the most suitable individual to carry your plans forward.

But in my opinion...worrying or even bothering what customers want, defeats breeding the best possible puppies.

I have kept a male because he was the best but it really is a pain in the rump and if I didnt love him to bits I would regret my decision.

You will hear serious breeders saying the old chestnut 'we only breed for ourself' and on the whole this usually sorts the wheat from the chaff.
When you start factoring in what your customers want, the risk of you compromising is high.

Just my opinion of course.

Can't belive you lot! A deal is a deal. I'm sure the pup would perfer to live with a nice family than being dragged around shows at the weekend.

I'm sure the pup would perfer to live with a nice family than being dragged around shows at the weekend.

Yeah right. I went to a show today with two of my dogs. My 10 year old Champion bitch wasn't going as there were no breed classes for her, and she was HOWLING this morning when she saw us bring the show bag etc out and did not take her. She so wanted to come as well.

> Can't belive you lot! A deal is a deal.

I think the OP is saying the pups are all booked (which includes one for keeping) but not all allocated to their new homes. If I get this right the boy hasn't been assigned to anyone, but the girl she thought of keeping has now been chosen by a family.

I'd go with your gut instinct, which at the moment is saying this boy. He may turn out to be fine with your girls - or he may not, in which case further down the line you'd need to re-assess and think about homing him with someone you trust... either temporarily or permanently, or if you love him that much, neuter him. I don't know much about Suprelorin but that could be an option?

I wouldn't keep one just because you feel you have to. If you breed again in a few years there might be the stunning girl you'd been hoping for, which you may not be able to keep because you kept one this time.

> I don't find the mix a problem, and quite frankly when the girls come into season it's a bit of a pain, but it's not rocket science to keep them all apart and happy.

I'm with Trialist on this one.  Yes, I have to put up with the boys singing (experienced boys, so usually only when they're ovulating.)

I am working on a particular breed trait, and will keep a bitch that will help my aim, even if she is a bit plain.  As I already have boys, it does mean that a boy has to have the wow factor to stay here.  We all do what we can cope with.

As the girls do tend to bring each other into season, it isn't as if I am having to keep everybody separate all the time.  They normally have all doors open when I am home, but in the kitchen when I go out.  When a bitch is in season, I just have to have the closed doors rule, with crate back up.

>I'm sure the pup would perfer to live with a nice family than being dragged around shows at the weekend.

A showdog is no more than a pet with a social life! It gets to spend the weekend with its owner rather than being left at home while the humans go out for the day.

"I'm sure the pup would perfer to live with a nice family than being dragged around shows at the weekend."

Yeh, right - that's why they rush out to the car and hover about by it when they see my packing my show bag :) And before you say, that's because they get left alone when I go to a show, they don't! My partner stays at home to look after the ones that aren't being shown. My poor show dogs have such a tough time, sleeping by the fire in the winter, or on the furniture if they prefer, going for lovely walks, lying in the conservatory if it's a sunny day. Raw deal, isn't it!

I had promised my friend a dog out of litter 2 years ago as I had no intentions of keeping a male, to cut a long story short at about 7 weeks old I "noticed" this dog properly for the first time, he had always looked ordinary before but all of a sudden he stood out.  I spent an evening worrying myself sick about how to tell my friend she couldnt have him after all, thankfully she understood and I told her she could have pick of the bitches.  He has just turned 2 years old and is now a champion with 3CC & 4RCCs so far!!!  Go with your gut instinct - you breed for yourself and no one else!

And before you say, that's because they get left alone when I go to a show, they don't! My partner stays at home to look after the ones that aren't being shown.

Same here. My dogs are never left alone as there are 4 adults in this house.

> Can't belive you lot! A deal is a deal.

Jocelyn I'm curious, why do you think someone breeds a litter?

A good breeder will spend years researching their breed, spend a fortune campaigning their dogs, spend another fortune doing health tests, spend endless hours asking people questions about breeding, have sleepless nights worrying about mating their bitch, possibly travel a very long way to have their bitch mated to the best available dog for her, spend hours crawling around on their knees at these matings. Spend another 9 weeks worrying themselves sick that something may go wrong, spend another fortune on whelping box, bedding etc, spend weeks sleeping on the sofa next to the whelping box and much more. A good breeder does all this so that they can have the best possible pup for themselves - not so they can sell the pups to someone else.

> I'm sure the pup would perfer to live with a nice family than being dragged around shows at the weekend.

Your average show dog is a very happy, much loved pet, they get to spend more time with their beloved owners than a lot of pet dogs - ringcraft meeting their friends through the week and visiting exciting places at the weekend. They are walked whatever the weather to have the correct muscle tone and bond with their owners while grooming and training.

A showdog is no more than a pet with a social life

It also explains where mine went :)

I'm sure the pup would perfer to live with a nice family than being dragged around shows at the weekend.

Are these options mutually exclusive? I hope not!

My oldest boy hated the show ring and only went in once, but he adores going as mascot with the other two who do get shown, to the extent that last month he forbore from expressing his usual opinion of the grooming table (usually finds a remote and inaccessible corner of the house) and actually wanted to have a go for himself--I'd despaired of ever being able to groom him without a massive struggle, but now he actually does really well because he values the attention the others get. They all know it's a day of special treats and love their day out--they get to see their breeders and chums, so a happy time all round.

I don't believe anyone could show a dog successfully that really disliked the ring--there's zero point in dragging a dog round that hates it, 

As I wrote earlier, a good breeder will be breeding for themselves - only letting the others go after much deliberation and great care.

There are plenty of the other type Jocelyn..the ones which breed a litter primarily for sale.

Apparently every customer gets to come in and take their pick. So there are those who do put the customer first......plenty of them in fact.

I know how you feel, I had to let a family down on my first litter and they were pretty annoyed. But at the end of the day, you bred this litter to improve the breed, and if you want the puppy you should keep him. I've kept entire males and females and never had an accident, though I did have to try to find friends to take my boy for about 10 days because he would howl, throw up, or refuse to eat! Depends on how big and determined your breed(s) are of course, my breeds are both smallish. If you don't think you can keep a boy, would this family that booked him be interested in showing him? At least then he wouldn't be 'wasted'. Or perhaps you could agree that he won't be neutered, so if he turns out really good you have the option of using him on a bitch you breed or buy in at a later date?

Thanks for all your input.  It's gave me a bit of thinking to do!!(as if I weren't allready).
Joceyln, My dogs are the 'poor sould' that frequent the ring.  Poor, poor things are raised from day 1 with that in mind so they get the very best feeding, exercise, training and especially bonding with me, their handler.  Must be tough.  I do have 1 bitch who is 9 which never liked the showring so she never went and is still treated as well as my prized winners are.  I must be a horrible option for a puppy.  But I do hope I picked you up wrong and you meant about letting this family down?  This family live quite a bit away and have 'picked' their puppy through e-mails and phone calls with me describing him.  I doubt very much it would make any difference if I offered them the other dog.  I have all the puppies 'proliminary' picked but I also have the option to switch puppies according to my choice or definate personality clashes(quite pup with a busy family, or vise versa).
Ms Termaine, You have hit the nail on the head I think.  I really didn't want to give her another litter as this is her second but I might wait a year or so and see how I feel.  I'm just kicking myself about that bitch in the fist litter

>I don't believe anyone could show a dog successfully that really disliked the ring--there's zero point in dragging a dog round that hates it,

You can't. I had a bitch that hated the ring. It was like dragging a sack of spuds round the ring. Once a year she would actually show, but I retired her and she lived her life very happily at home. I have her grandson and he sulks when he is left at home. When I start to prepare my young bitch it is my male that jumps into the bath. He loves is so much.

To the OP. I decided years ao that I would never keep a male, but in a litter I bred I only had 2 bitches, but 7 males. The males were so much better quality that I decided to keep one. He has done me proud. Yes, it is a nightmare when I have a bitch in season but I have leqarnt to manage it. 2 cages in the living room at either end of the room so that he can see the bitch has not gone to find a new 'playmate' :-) I rotate them so that they each have time free. I now only have one entire bitch and she hasn't had a season yet (only 8 months old) so my problem isn't as bad as it was, but you should be prepared for the sleepless nights, the howling, the not eating. But I do not regret keeping him one iota.

I would keep him in a minute but he is booked allready and he's a boy.

Like Jocelyn, I can't believe you are wanting to renage on a contract you have already made.  If someone has already 'booked' (your word) this boy then you should  allow him to go to the person who 'booked' him!

Or maybe that little guy should stay?    And if he should, what should I say to the family that think he is theirs?

You have made a contract, verbal though it may be. Do the right thing and honour it.  To do otherwise shows a huge lack of integrity.  Ask yourself how you would feel if you had been this family (customer) waiting for a mating, pup(s) to be born, stated your choice, believed a deal was agreed and then the breeder reneged on you!  Would you be happy?  Would you feel cheated, used, lied to, let down, deceived? If you would feel any or all of those things put in this family's place then don't do it.

And as for the poster who asked what do you think breeders breed for I think the answer is quite clear.  Money.  Otherwise the Op would not have stated:

I don't mean to sound heartless but I don't want to waste a space with a mediocre bitch(IYSWIM). 

> And as for the poster who asked what do you think breeders breed for I think the answer is quite clear.  Money.  Otherwise the Op would not have stated:
>
> I don't mean to sound heartless but I don't want to waste a space with a mediocre bitch(IYSWIM). 

You completely misunderstand a  breeder who is working on advancing their breeding lien will not want to keep one that will not do this.  Especially in this day and age with neighbours to consider, the dogs to consider re time we can give them etc you do not keep any more than you need to as you will have mostly pensioners at any given time anyway if you keep your dogs lifelong.

I would love to keep more than the half dozen dogs  I am trying to stick to (3 of which are veterans, and an the prospect of an unborn puppy), but then I couldn't afford it in time, space and money and still give them the kind of life I like to.

If money were the object then the mediocre bitch would stay to have an extra breeding bitch to produce 'pet puppies' that is pups only fit to be pets and not anything else beyond that.

You completely misunderstand a  breeder who is working on advancing their breeding lien will not want to keep one that will not do this.

I think you have misunderstood my point.

There are already thousands upon thousands of unwanted dogs in existence and I am not referring to cross-breeds and mongrels but pedigree dogs too.  I doubt that it is about advancing their breeding line.   For every litter of 6 - 9 pups born only one is likely to be kept by the breeder and the rest sold on as 'family pets', some of whom will be bred from anyway by 'amateur breeders'.  Sure, a breeder will want to keep the one that they think will go on to produce 'good' pups but again 6-8 out of every 9 of each litter born will again be discarded and sold off for a high price as family pets. 

That's a very high turn-over and wastage element 'to advance their breed line' when, as a nation we don't need and there aren't enough homes already, for those dogs being bred every year.

If money were the object then the mediocre bitch would stay to have an extra breeding bitch to produce 'pet puppies' that is pups only fit to be pets and not anything else beyond that.

Dogs are living creatures not commodities, a fact that often gets overlooked.  That they are referred to as fit to be pets and not anything else beyond that is so provocative that words almost fail me.  If they are not pets then  what are they?   Breeding machines?

In the OPs own words she doesn't want to sound heartless, but whether anyone wants to sound heartless or not, referring to a mediocre bitch as being a waste of space is entirely that but sometimes we suffer from the Emperors New Clothes syndrome and no-one has the guts to stand up and say HEARTLESS is EXACTLY what it is. 

Coupled with reneging on a deal only adds to the level of heartlessness.  Such callousness is appalling!

>That they are referred to as fit to be pets and not anything else beyond that is so provocative that words almost fail me.  If they are not pets then  what are they?

They are pets, and very lovely pets too, but the random mix of their parents' genes that they inherited wasn't a particularly good one, and so shouldn't be passed on; they're one of the 90% or so of pedigree dogs that fall into this category. If one is serious about breeding to improve the breed, and not just to produce puppies for sale, then there's a limit to the number of animals one can keep without their welfare being adversely affected.

I took the 'waste of space' wording to mean that if she kept a mediocre bitch that she really didn't want to breed from then she wouldn't have the space for a better quality dog in the future. Nowadays the majority of breeders keep only a few dogs and space is limited. We no longer keep kennels of dogs to breed on from like they did years ago, where the mediocre ones could be kept and run on just in case they turned out better than the one we think is best. We have to take the chance on the ones we keep and hope that we have chosen the best ones for ourselves. As a breeder you have to look at what you have, your circumstances and you also have to look to the future. If that means letting someone down then so be it, but explain in a way that they don't feel too hurt. Give them the choice of another if possible, or let them have the choice of one from the next litter, or put them onto someone who you would have a puppy from yourself.

There are already thousands upon thousands of unwanted dogs in existence and I am not referring to cross-breeds and mongrels but pedigree dogs too.  I doubt that it is about advancing their breeding line.   For every litter of 6 - 9 pups born only one is likely to be kept by the breeder and the rest sold on as 'family pets', some of whom will be bred from anyway by 'amateur breeders'.  Sure, a breeder will want to keep the one that they think will go on to produce 'good' pups but again 6-8 out of every 9 of each litter born will again be discarded and sold off for a high price as family pets. 

You are right - but those dogs aren't bred by responsible, caring breeders who have the breed's best interest at heart. Those are the puppy farmers or the  dog owners who either think it would be good for their "lovely" bitch to have a litter, don't take the responsibility of ensuring their in season bitch is kept away from entire dogs or simply see having a litter as a way of making money. The vast majority of breeders who frequent this board on a regular basis do have their breed's best interests at heart, do only breed a litter to continue and improve upon their lines, do only breed from the best examples of their breed, do ensure that their dogs are health tested and of the best temperament and  do ensure that their puppies get the best possible start in life and provide support for those dogs for the rest of their lives including taking them back if there is any reason why the new owner cannot keep the dog.

> That's a very high turn-over and wastage element 'to advance their breed line' when, as a nation we don't need and there aren't enough homes already, for those dogs being bred every year

You need to tell that to the puppy farmers and BYB's who do treat their dogs as commodities. Responsible, caring, ethical breeders endorse their dogs to try to ensure that the pups they have bred will not be bred from themselves unless they are of excellent health, temperament and conform to the breed standard.

> In the OPs own words she doesn't want to sound heartless, but whether anyone wants to sound heartless or not, referring to a mediocre bitch as being a waste of space is entirely that but sometimes we suffer from the Emperors New Clothes syndrome and no-one has the guts to stand up and say HEARTLESS is EXACTLY what it is. 
>

It would be far more heartless to keep and breed from a bitch who wasn't a great example of her breed - breeding from a bitch just because it's there would be the sort of thing a puppy farmer or BYB would do.

> Coupled with reneging on a deal only adds to the level of heartlessness.  Such callousness is appalling!

So if it turned out that the would be purchasers of the puppy were not in fact a good home for the pup would it be callous to "renege" on the deal or should a breeder just say "Oh well, I said they could have a pup so I had better let them have one". All good breeders will want their pups to go to the right home, not just any old person that comes along with the cash - unless of course the breeder is a puppy farmer or a BYB.

> There are already thousands upon thousands of unwanted dogs in existence and I am not referring to cross-breeds and mongrels but pedigree dogs too.  I doubt that it is about advancing their breeding line.   For every litter of 6 - 9 pups born only one is likely to be kept by the breeder and the rest sold on as 'family pets', some of whom will be bred from anyway by 'amateur breeders'. 

Responsible breeders usually endorse the remaining pups that are not of breeding quality as 'progeny not eligible for registration' as they should not be bred from.

A responsible breeder does not flood the market with puppies simply because they can sell them, they stay morally responsible for the lifetime of their puppies and home them responsibly and help re-home them if the need arises.

It is the casually produced puppies bred purely because there is a market that are the cause of canine over population and rescue.

If only responsible breeders bred to advance breed lines, for show or working dogs, with only the surplus sold on soley as pets there would actually be a shortage of pet puppies and people waiting to be lucky enough to get a puppy (as is often thw case with those on good breeders waiting lists).

> Dogs are living creatures not commodities, a fact that often gets overlooked.  That they are referred to as fit to be pets and not anything else beyond that is so provocative that words almost fail me.  If they are not pets then  what are they?   Breeding machines?
>
>

That is the point they are sold as and should remain 'solely pets' (surely the most important purpose) as they or their homes/owners are not suited for breeding/working/showing etc.

Some may be suitable for some other adiitional cnaine activity in additon to being pets.

All my dogs are pets, but I choose only to keep those when I breed a litter that will fit into my breeding program, and of course once that is achieved they revert to 'soley pet' status, though luckily our breed stays fit and capable of being shown (spaying doesn't negatively alter their coats etc too much as it would in some breeds) right to advanced age, so most still go to the occcasional shwo even in retirement..

Responsible breeders usually endorse the remaining pups that are not of breeding quality as 'progeny not eligible for registration' as they should not be bred from.

In theory this sounds fine but the reality of life does not mirror this.  There is already another thread running about how an owner of a bitch was mated and the owners agreed to forgo the stud fee in exchange for the owner of the stud dog to have pick of the litter.  It is quite clear from the resulting mess that occurred when only one bitch survived that neither breeder knew what they were doing or the 'etiquette' that is supposed to apply.  People DO breed irresponsibly.

That apart,  one of my main concerns remains unanswered, if every breeder keeps one bitch (usually) to continue/advance the line as you stated just what else can happen to all the other pups that were born?  There almost always is a surplus to requirements.  They are sold off for a hefty fee.  They are not given away.  That is a fact of life.

And in this instance why can't the OP keep a mediocre pup and give away/sell the one she promised to the family who expect to have a male?

For too long breeders have, in the name of advancing their line, slowly but surely narrowed down the gene pool  for each breed of dog.  In continuing to choose to breed from the one they think most closely will match the blueprint laid down by the KC specification and so will do well at shows and therefore command the highest stud fee or price for pups, the more problems have arisen in dog health.  I remember having this discussion years ago and being jumped on by breeders.  But 2 years on saw the biggest expose on the problems in our dogs health and the KC having to seriously re-visit its part in the sorry mess.

In forever trying to pick the pup that most closely matches the blueprint there are fewer and fewer dogs available to breed from and the problem gets worse.  The breed I love most has changed so drastically from what it originally was, in order to match the KC spec for the breed, that it now would not be fit to do the job it was originally bred to do.  That's tragic.  But it has occurred because the breed spec said, long flowing double coat so breeders selected the pup they thought would most match that and mated it to another of similar type.  The coat became longer, thicker to the point that it requires endless amount of grooming just to keep it in good shape and free from matting and skin problems.  Never in 100 years could it now work in the environment that it used to do.  It has been ruined as a working breed but does well in the showring.  If breeders had not tried so hard to produce a dog to show well they may have selected a dog with less coat length and density and/or mated it with a bitch with less coat etc.  It would still be true to breed type in fact it would be truer to breed type if you go back historically and look at what the breed used to be before breeders bred for 'showing'. 

It happened in other breeds.  The bulldog spec was for a large, bulky, square head.  What happened?  After years of breeders selecting to meet the spec and chosing to breed the bitch and dog with the largest,  square heads available we ended up with bitches unable to give birth naturally because the heads of pups were too big to deliver!

For as long as breeders strive to meet a set of criteria which is too narrow and definitive in its description our dogs will suffer. 

Why can't this breeder (OP) breed from what she sees as a mediocre bitch providing the bitch is healthy and representitive of the breed?

Oh, I get it, she won't make a top 'show' bitch or command the best prices for her unwanted pups.  Now just what was said about money.

You can't have it both ways, either the best is kept for breeding or any and every pup in a litter should be bred from if one takes into account the needs of a gene pool.

Only those willing and able to be responsible for the pups they breed should do so regardless.  Then there would be very few dogs in need of rescue, but still dogs available for re-homing to those who prefer not to start with a puppy..

>And in this instance why can't the OP keep a mediocre pup and give away/sell the one she promised to the family who expect to have a male?

Because the mediocre bitch won't be suitable to continue the line; to carry on her line she'll have to have another litter in the hopes of getting a bitch with potential, but won't have the time or facilities to keep one, because its 'space' in the household is being taken by the much-loved mediocre bitch. This bitch would be better being homed to someone who has no intention of breeding.

>Why can't this breeder (OP) breed from what she sees as a mediocre bitch providing the bitch is healthy and representitive of the breed?

Because if it's mediocre it isn't representative of the breed! As you say, there are too many unwanted dogs, so it would be irresponsible to add to the number of dogs needing homes by breeding from lower-quality animals.

> Oh, I get it, she won't make a top 'show' bitch or command the best prices for her unwanted pups.  Now just what was said about money.

In most breeds puppies are the same price regardless of show or breeding potential.  it would be foolish for a breeder to sell any pup at a premium, as no-one can guarantee a puppy will make the grade, be a winner, fertile etc.

Certainly in my own breed which is numerically small, show wins titles etc make no difference to the price of puppies or stud fees they are the same across the board *(give or take £50) thereby making it much easier to swap puppy enquiries etc so that vetted good owners can get the puppy they hope for if a  given breeder cannot supply it.

Most breeders where puppies are not readily/instantly available network to help home the puppies to the best homes.  No-one wants to disappoint nice people without a good reason, but in the end the breeder has done the work and gets first choice of any puppies they have worked hard to rear.

No they are not given away, but most breeds are very reasonably priced for the level of work and expense involved in raising a well bred litter.

With my own breed I know that four puppies will just cover basic expenses (maternal health testing, stud fees, travel, vet, registration etc fees and rearing costs).  This will not cover overseas studs, Importing semen and using AI, C sections, and time off work etc.

It will certainly not help much with the costs of keeping the rest of ones dogs, showing or working them.  If one did not breed/show/work ones dogs one could keep just a dog or two.

Suzieque where would you suggest one went in order to obtain a puppy?

My requirements would be to have a puppy from health tested parents, to be fit for purpose, of good temperament, to be well socialised and to have a lifetime of support from it's breeder, thus having the best start in life it could possibly have.

If you can tell me where I could obtain such a puppy I would be most interested. As far as I am aware I can only obtain such a puppy from a reputable breeder such as I described in my previous post but if you aware of another source then I would be most interested to know.

As I first said 'if they are offering a good home', of course it would be ok to refuse if in any dought, but that is not the reason here.
your word is your bond simply as that, without that you are worthless.

I think that good breeders are stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea when it comes to their puppies.

We would all like to have people waiting for our litter when it is planned and be able to choose the best homes for them when they arrive but, at the end of the day, these are the OP's pups. In my opinion if she decided to keep all of them that is her choice.

I have known of 'reputable' breeders swoping puppies with each other. So when you go to look at the litter you can't know for sure that the pup is even from that bitch, unless you get a DNA test. (I'm not tarring eveyone with the same brush; I know you dont all do it)
As for being fit for the purpose, what purpose is that, being paraded around a show ring!
I can understand someone keeping the best one if it was for a working dog and let the others go as pets to good home.

I have known lovely heathy pups from reputable breeders, and I'v known lovely heathy pups from the RSPCA and other animal welfare centres.

I have known pups from accidental litters who no one is sure who the father is, these usally turn out great, free to good homes, a good mixture of genes, and best of all they tend to live for ages.

Its personal choice I known which I'd choose.

Why do you need a lifetime of support from the breeders?

Why do you need a lifetime of support from the breeders..................................
for me i will take back any dog ive breed and have done this 3 times........
i like to know how their getting on , i care about them and will till the day i die!
xx

> have known of 'reputable' breeders swoping puppies with each other.

That is not reputable in anyones book, reputable breeders will swap potential puppy owners if another breeder has what the potential owner needs.

> Why do you need a lifetime of support from the breeders?
>
>

To ensure the dog doesn't end up a rescue statistic, to help with training and management advice, to keep in touch for the pleasure it gives both breeder and new owner being part of the extended human and canine family.

It is one of the greatest pleasures a breeder has the feedback and friendships formed when pups are homed.  it also enables the breeder to monitor health and other traits when more than just their own dogs are taken into account.

> I have known lovely healthy pups from reputable breeders, and I'v known lovely heathy pups from the RSPCA and other animal welfare centres.
>
> I have known pups from accidental litters who no one is sure who the father is, these usally turn out great, free to good homes, a good mixture of genes, and best of all they tend to live for ages.
>
>

Law of averages will mean that by dumb luck even pups and dogs with the worst start in life will turn out OK, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't start out with much better odds.

I expect my dogs to live long and healthy lives (average 13 with little to no vet treatment until old age), as a breeder it is in my own best interest as I keep my dogs for life, meaning that most of them are likely to be veterans at any given time.

Hi Chaumsong, I would of thought breeders breed because they have a lovely bitch with a lovely temperment and no health problums to pass on, and they think the pups would make lovely companions for other people. Nothing wrong with keeping one, but it you promise one to someone else then you dont break it.
How many of you promised your kids something for Christmas and how many of you broke the promise?
A promise is a promise no matter what that promise is.

No they are not reputable but unsusecting people belive them to be.

I can unstand that it must give the breeder and the new owner a lot of pleasure to keep in touch and friendships made in any circumstance is a good thing.

Thanks for your answer I was just interested.

> A promise is a promise no matter what that promise is.

But what if its not right in the situation as it stands? I know people who have chosen a pup in a litter at around 5 weeks only for the breeder to offer them something different in the litter weeks later. Breeders I know will do this for many reasons and one recent one has been that one of the bitches was very dominant and they felt that the new owners weren't suited for this temperament. If you have never had a certain breed before and you purely want it as a pet you need a very easy going dog, especially around children.
A promise of a pup in this case may still be on offer, but not what the new owners had in mind. Also to note they've yet to even see the pup in the flesh and it may not be their cup of tea either, what if they changed their minds? Promise is a promise?? I don't think so.

My best friend in dogs or out was my first ever puppy buyer.

We have both had five generations of dogs since and she finally bred her own first litter under two years ago, we went and stayed to help.

Many miles have been covered in each others company, dogs looked after by each other etc etc.

She isn't the only friend made this way but probably the closest.

what purpose is that, being paraded around a show ring!

This is ignoring the fact that so many dogs shown in the ring have another working life, whether in agility, field trials, as PAT dogs etc etc

Ours is a dual purpose breed (e.g. no difference in body shape, size, coat) and I know many breeders who show their dogs will have had them out picking up in the field the day before.

what purpose is that, being paraded around a show ring!

I grow tired of this anti show attitude my dogs would die if they were put out to work they have absoloutly no inkling to be out working and i would hate for them to be out miserably doing something they wouldn't want to do,all of them bar one loves the show ring and are very flashy and love to show off, their only job is to be my companion and where i go they go and rest assured that will keep them very happy to the end of their days.
We get the point you dissaprove of the show ring well thats fine but dont shoot down those that do and do it with dogs that enjoy it equally.

I have known pups from accidental litters who no one is sure who the father is, these usally turn out great, free to good homes, a good mixture of genes, and best of all they tend to live for ages.

Assuming this to be generally true, if we followed this to its logical conclusion we'd be turfing bitches in season out onto the street and wishing them well for the first dog they run into, all so we can provide free puppies to whoever wants one. I think the rescue centres already have more puppies than they can handle as it is.

Dogs enjoy spending time with the people they love, whatever form that takes - showing, working - they would rather be with their people, in whatever capacity, than shut up at home alone with people at work.

Of course breeders must breed with a purpose.  They must have in mind what they want to achieve and choose a stud to reflect that.  Then they must keep whatever pup best meets their needs from the litter (if they want to keep one at all). 

And of course showing dogs has sometimes resulted in breeding programmes which have been taken to extremes (flat noses, impractical coats etc) - but that doesn't mean that the idea of showing itself is wrong or harmful, just that the criteria which are being used have been allowed to stray far from anything practical and to have become exaggerations.  To declare that showing is wrong is to throw the baby out with the bathwater:  A dog can't work properly unless it is built properly.  Conformation, working ability and physical health are intimately connected.  Breeds evolved for a purpose and often that purpose is intimately associated with what they look like.  If they can no longer fulfil the purpose, it's not showing per se which is "wrong", it is the stupidity of humankind which has allowed breed standards to stray far from representing a dog which meets the requirements for both form and function.