Across the road a lady keeps her dogs outside,they have a wire 2 storey kennel,I would of thought it is far to cold at the moment as temp here in wigan is between -3 to -8.I can here them wimpering during the night,in my book this is unnessary suffering,I know she has a golden retriever 6 months old and a belgian shepherd.

Sheila

Depends if their sleeping area is draft proof and what sort of bedding, they may also have heating that you are unaware of, only way to find out would be to introduce yourself and ask how matters are managed, should be able to do so without giving offence.

Many dogs live happily outside all year round, and if they have nice warm beds they will be fine. Some of my borzois lived outside, they had deep beds filled with shredded paper or hay and were toasty warm.

I am concerned about the 2 story wire kennel though? I hope it's not just a cage? I've never heard of a 2 story kennel. Can you give us a fuller description please (just coz I'm nosey!)

As Nova says I would just ask about them, maybe say you're thinking about moving your dogs outside and want some tips?

Agree with others - temps are colder up here. Two of my dogs live outdoors. They have an enclosed kennel area to the back of the run to which door flaps are attached to reduce draughts. It's also placed in a position where the wind cannot blow into the kennel. Raised beds keep air circulating so beds never damp. Kennel area is insulated with a small panel heater which is on 24hrs a day. TBH, I think the panel heaters are more for my peace of mind rather than it being a necessity for the dogs comfort.

The only thing that is a bind is keeping water supply from freezing (if anyone has any tips for this then please share!)Luckily, I am available throughout the day to take out regular water.

Also, like others, 2 storey wire kennel?? Never heard of anything like this!! Is there an enclosed area within the kennel where the dogs can go?

> The only thing that is a bind is keeping water supply from freezing (if anyone has any tips for this then please share!)

Someone once told me to put a couple of plastic ping pong balls in the dogs water bucket, the theory being they bob around when the dogs drink thus braking up any forming ice. Unfortunately I kept finding the balls in the dogs beds adn a frozen lump in the water bucket!

My boys love being outside in this weather and we have buckets of water about the place. They also have a summer house which they use at times too. I was told to put sugar in the water, this didn't work. I now have the Snugglesafe pads for the summer house when they are out there, it does prevent the water from freezing over.
As it is, I'm not liking my boys to be out sleeping in this weather, even though the summer house is draft free and warm etc, they are in the house currently. Though i'm sure they would be very happy to be outside and its been a pain to get them to come inside at times, they lay out and bask in this cold weather.. ???

It is more like a metal pen,sorry I said wire,Ican only see the dogs from my bedroom window,she also has a border collie that must jump on to a platform within the kennel,it not very big but she opens the door in the mornings so they wonder around a small yard,they are not taken out very much, I feel sorry for the dogs and I dont see the point in her having them as they do have a miserable life,she used to do agility with them,however they are stuck in the back of her house day after day.

Sheila

cripes mine must be spoilt- they sleep on my bed! or if its too hot for them then they lie on my hard carpeted floor

Mine also sleep on my bed and go on the floor if they get to hot.

Sheila

>they lay out and bask in this cold weather

Cor, my Dobermanns knees would be knocking after 30 seconds of being out in this weather and not moving! What a delicate flower he is :-D

I can't even get one of mine to go out for a wee in the rain!!!! I literally have to get behind him and with a hand on each bum cheek, slide him across the floor and out the patio doors!!!  Not easy with a 70kg dog!!  It would be so much easier if he wore roller-skates!!!

He also either sleeps on my side of the bed or on his duvet on the floor if I or him get too hot!!!

When I got him he had been living outside and had cracked, blistered paws with pus coming from between his pads, was covered in rainscald and weighed 35kg. He was terrified of going out for his nightime wee (fine during the day but just not at night) as I'm sure he was expecting to be locked out.

Mine live insided, but they've been out lay in the snow and ice in the back garden for the last 4 hours chewing their bones!  Kitchen is like an ice box, but they are happy.

My younger ones are happy to sleep in their wooden kennel in their plastic beds on vet bed, with windows cracked open a tiny bit to allow the hot air to escape as the windows are steamed up by morning.  the beds are under full width benches that have vet bed on top so they have a choice of under or on top, which obviously makes the beds rather cosy.

The temperature on the thermometer in there has been around freezing when I let them out in the morning, and they are as happy as clams.

The two eldest sleep in an unheated kitchen with a concrete floor in plastic beds with vet bed.  They too would prefer to be out, but now that the eldest one has ocasional accidents if I don't hear her asking to go out I have forced her to stay in, and I always have at least one sleeping indoors for security..

I have kept the girls who sleep out in on the coldest days, but they don't seem happy about it.

Mine is a Nordic breed and even puppies at 4 weeks plus are more than happy to be out in cold and snow, it is wet that is a dogs enemy and as long as you ensure they go to bed dry and have dry bedding they love the cold, and seem to come alive. 

My lot hate rain.

Mine only sleep out, they are in the house the rest of the time with us.

Mine are outdoors dogs, they have a timber kennel and run, with mesh windows, and a half height box that I can lift the front off during the day time.  It actually gets lovely and cosy warm in there, I know, because I'm daft enough to sit on their bed shelf and fuss them.  But they do need some sort of shelter, and appropriate bedding, I wouldn't just keep them in a run without a kennel box and bedding. 

When I had 2 big dogs we kept them outside as well- insulated dog house with a flap, bedding and straw for warmth. When it was really cold hubby would climb in the doghouse with them and take his winter jacket off to see how cold it was in there. Always warm, but we would bring them in during a cold snap but they would wine just to go back outside. Shepherd/collie and a wolf/rott. Taz the wolf/rott would just dig holes in the snow and cuddle into that- they both loved the snow...

Think it is all too easy to put our human thought and feeling onto our dogs and imagine they will feel as we do. We would hate to sit in the snow for a hour or so and would rather be in the warm, my hounds are the exact opposite they would much rather sit outside freezing their assets than be inside by the fire although as they get older they are more inclined to stay inside. Mine have free choice and out is where they wish to be Summer and Winter.

> We would hate to sit in the snow for a hour or so and would rather be in the warm, my hounds are the exact opposite they would much rather sit outside freezing

I have just looked out of the kitchen window to see my Border Collie lying down on compacted snow while he chews on a bone.  he could easily bring it in the kitchen to eat if he wanted.

The Chihuahuas are playing chase, and even a tiny tot is having so much fun that he ignores me when I shout him in out of the freezing cold.

All of mine do sleep in the kitchen at night though.

Mine also have choice,as we have a large dog flap that leads into a very safe and secure garden,after there walks they choose to stay in the house,and only go out for duties.

Sheila

Maisie does not like the cold - she is more like a cat than a dog and literally has to be dragged out for a walk in this weather.  She is currently snuggled up on her memory foam pillow in the warm like a princess.  Billy is a bit more amenable but he genuinelyf feels the cold due to havng only a little down on his tummy.

Jack Russells prefer to be indoors.!

So do labs given the choice.

Sheila

Not all Labs I don't think, mind I suppose habit and training will amend natural instinct, most the labs I have known are there like a flash if they think a door may be opened.
.

My Cavaliers and American cocker are happy to be outside in this weather to sniff around for a few minutes, and I've been very impressed with the puppy agreeing to go outside to wee in a snowy garden, something her mother would not do when young. But their place of choice is curled up next to me on the sofa, which is where they are right now!

My Ridgies are quite happy to go for a quick gallop but don't like to be out in it for very long. If it's windy I put coats on them but if it's still they're ok without - for a little while. The Aussies, however are a different kettle of fish and Meg, nearly 13 and very hairy, seems more than happy to lie down in it :)

My bernese would happily live outside as she adores the cold but she is never outside overnight as we have no secure kennel for her and she is needed as a hot water bottle for the other two :-) . Treacle (the gordon) is a delicate wee soul - always cold - she usually keeps her coat on even indoors in winter. The wee one feels the cold a bit too but her coat is coming in a lot thicker so I think she will be fine when she is a big girl :-)

As for OP neighbour - I would be concerned if there were no shelter for these dogs - outside fine - but not without shelter from the weather.

Think it does depend on the dogs coat and also their place of origin, you don't expect dogs from Africa and the Middle east to live in the cold, dogs like Pharaohs, Greyhounds, Whippets, Basenji and the majority of the toy breeds are not equipped but dogs from the pole areas should not mind at all they include all the Northern spitz and breeds like the Mountain dogs, Newfoundlands, Labs and the shepherding breeds also most of the double coated breeds. Of course, some will enjoy a good time outside but will also enjoy laying on the hearth we once had a cocker that would work outside all day but if not stopped she would sit in the fire on the still hot embers alerting us by the smell of scorching feathers - she must have been the scruffiest Cocker ever not just muddy but scorched and blackened as well, seems no one told her they are supposed to be an intelligent breed.

Just dawned on me there also seems to be a difference in the build of those dogs from warm and hot countries and those from the poles the latter are far more inclined to carry weight.

> The Aussies, however are a different kettle of fish and Meg, nearly 13 and very hairy, seems more than happy to lie down in it

LOL - another Aussie here who is exactly the same :) :) :)

Daisy

Hi nova,had labs for forty years and after long walks in our nearby lake district they do want to come indoors after there long daily walks,they swim,come to the local shops with me,they have busy lives with me  take them to Norfolk on the broads twice a year and we stay in a very posh hotel thrers even a blanket on the bed that says do not remove as this is a dog blanket lol,The key is to definatly keep them occupied and they make wonderful calm placid companions,and labs certainly like there home comforts.

Sheila

That is as I said Sheila dogs will do whatever you bring them up to do and within reason they will be happy to oblige. You do however have to think about the type and breed you have no good expecting a dog with racing shape and single coat to be happy in sub zero temperatures.

The two breeds you were worried about will be fine providing they have dry and draft-proof beds, don't think I have missed any of your posts but I don't think you have said if they do or not.

Cant see if they have draught proof beds,she did have poodles at one time and they were outside as well,she never takes them out for walks I feel sorry for them,however they do appear to be healthy.

Sheila

They would be OK outside as well as long as the were not clipped too short, given shelter most dogs are fine outside they start with the advantage of having a higher core blood temperature than us and sophisticated clothing designed to deal with weather in all it's aspects all they need is wet proof shelter and dry bedding. People may well think I do not take my dogs out for walks and they are right I rarely do but I have a very large garden and they are always accompanied into that area although they have a large run around area attached to the house.

If your neighbours dogs look fit and healthy they probably are and you are worrying without cause.

Hi,

No I don't think you are worrying about nothing, if you can hear them whimpering in the night well clearly they aren't happy with it either.  While they have shelter that they can go in and out of and they have food and water and their basic needs met then unfortunately there isn;t a whole lot that can be done in the eyes of the law :-(

I would also agree that they are getting far from the best if they are only getting to be let out in a small yard everyday.  Wlaks are about a whole lot more than just a bit of run about room.  I think unless you actually have land where you take your dogs everyday and actually go out with them then walks are vital and even then I think they should be getting walks for socilisation purposes.  It's about stimulation and variety, using different muscles on different types of walks and keeeping dogs lives varied and interesting.  I think if dogs are going to be kept outside 24/7 and not by their own choice, then the very least they need and deserve is to be given time with their people and taken out for walks daily.  Both Golden retrieveers anbd Belgian Shepherds are so people rientated and they certainly are unlikely to be as happy as they can be without much in the way of human contact!

Yes some dogs do do ok outside and some even prefer it but it certainly isn't the case that all will be happy or cope with it.  At least these dogs have each other for company and ren;t entirely aone.

Do you know the peron at all, do you think there is anyway you could have a subtle word with them - or even say that they are disturbing you at night, you never know it might urge her to take them inside for the nighttime at least.  Maybe she isn't aware of them making noise at night time.

I agree with Karenclynes,both Belgian shepherds and goldens crave human company and need lots of mental stimulation and they are probably very unhappy.I can't imagine how unhappy my old BSD would be if I kept him outside 24/7,he even gets upset that he has to sleep downstairs at night now and not in my bedroom as he can't climb the stairs any more.He doesn't generally feel the cold but even so I think the temperatures we have had had recently at night would have been too cold for him even in his younger day.I think a BSD thats not being walked much and not having much else done with it would not be happy.
Poor dogs,I hope you manage to have a word with her.

Thank you, I know these dogs are unhappy due to the non stimulation,the owner is not a very nice person,when she gets them as pups she is up and down the road with them for a few days then they go to threre prison,however TOOK THEM OUT TODAY,on there once a year december walk,she has seven dogs.a real mixture of breeds saw a couple of visalas,sorry if not spelt right,poor things looked terrified didnt realise she had so many,going ring rspca tomorrow.

Sheila

Good luck,let us know how you get on.Just re read your first post and seen the GR is just a 6 month old pup,that is awful,the poor little thing should be learning about life and having fun not stuck in a freezing kennel 24/7 :-(

I wouldn't dream of leaving my four dogs outside - not in this freezing weather or ever.  Mine are all wimps.  The westie sleeps in her basket in our bedroom and the other three sleep in their beds in the kitchen.  Our hound Hannah the Greek only "gets up" when she feels like it this weather.  She lies beneath her blanket for as  long as she can before sloping off outside for a wee.  When it is raining she looks at me as if to say "Go outside, moi?? I don't think so!".

Why on earth would you keep dogs outside?  My two tabby cats are just as pampered and spend all day up on the beds.  What a soft fool am I!

Snowflake

> Why on earth would you keep dogs outside? 

Dogs with natural double coats are actually more comfortable outside than in our over heated homes.

they will have better coats and fresher air to breathe.  This all assumes they have decent draught free and dry accommodation.

As for permanent kennelling of dogs with little or no human interaction, this will not make them good pets, but if they have canine companionship they will be happy as canines even if under stimulated, especially if they ahve known no different.

Certainly not the way most of us would wish to keep dogs as we generally keep them for companionship rather than as purely working animals as was often the case in the past.

Agree Brainless, if a dog is fit & healthy, has shelter and water then there is no cruelty involved, dogs may like human companionship but it is not considered cruel to withhold it even if the dog is kept alone. I find the keeping of single animals in species that are normally in groups uncomfortable to see but it does not amount to a cruelty case or all the single horses you see would have to be rescued.

Our two sleep in the kitchen and when not out on walks or in the garden spend all of their time lounging around the house. The eldest came to us at ten months having lived alone outside with shredded paper for bedding - he had no skin problems, no pink/red itchy areas, smelt houndy but not yeasty. Within twelve months, he started to have problems, yeast, redness in the folds of his skin and dewlap - although as family pets I could not think of kennelling them outside - do wonder if they both would be better of health wise. I'm begining to think that many skin problems are exacerbated by keeping out dogs in doors. Ours is not a warm house but they both always gravitate towards the warmest spot!

You may be right but yeasty skin and skin problems are often connected with neutering, not saying it is the reason in your case but it may well be; as you say the coats of most the hunting, sporting breeds along with most the spitz are designed for outdoor living so they are not at their best when the owner lives indoors and there can be a build up of oils and dead skin.

Nova. Many thanks for your response. I had not heard of the connection of yeasty skin and neutering, but looking back skin probs did start around that time. The coat of the elder has changed dramatically,  become very thin especialy his underparts. Why is this, is it all due to hormones, as I've said before have learnt at the cost of the poor dog and would never neuter again unless for medical reasons.

Yes, neutering removes glands that produce part of the bodies hormone system and effect the dogs in many different ways depending on when it is done, the younger the more effect you are likely to see but the coat and skin seem to be vulnerable at any age.

You only have to look at the effect on women post menopause to see how it can change the body shape and the pattern of hair growth and at the teenage end the growth of hair and spots - there is definitely a connection between the sex hormone and the bodies well being.