i have a kooikerhondje and she has light ticking in places, do you think if i was to use whitening shampoo it would enhance the ticking and make it look worse, she does really well in the show ring with out it.. but have just been thinking it may put her a peg above the others.

do you knwo of any good brands, if so where i could get it?

I hope that you don't get tested! :(
No substance which alters the natural colour, texture or body of the coat may be present in the dog's coat for any purpose at any time during the show. No substance, which alters the natural colour of any external part of the dog, may be present on the dog for any purpose at any time during the show.

Westcoast I presume that's she's only talking about shampoos which are specifically for white coats, not using an unaccepted shampoo.  They do say not to use it on other colours but have dogs that have two different colours I've never seen these shampoos lighten or do anything to the other colours.

Maybe things have changed, but when I worked on a trade stand at Champ shows, we were told to always say "You do know that this mustn't be left in the coat at shows" when selling any shampoos make for specific colours because they are designed to 'enhance' the colours. :(

I have used as well and it did no harm to the darker hair but does give the silver or white a lift that makes it stand out. As it is washed out of the coat it is fine to use it not like you are proposing to dye the white hair back or add highlights you will just be preparing your dog to look its' best, just the same if you use chalk no problem providing it is brushed out it acts like a dry shampoo and will clean up dark as well as white coats.

does give the silver or white a lift that makes it stand out
Then it's 'altering the natural colour'!
That's why chalk used for cleaning must also be removed before the dog is taken into the ring.

I would not think it "alters it" it just cleans the grease and dirt away in a sympathetic manner and shampoo is always washed out of the coat. If the special to colour shampoos leave anything behind I would be surprised if it is were any more or any different to that of a usual shampoo that usually leave nothing but a clean coat and a shine and the "lift" is from the correct cleaning for the colour not from dye or colourant.

Clean is clean. :)  I've never used anything but a base concentrate - no perfume, no colour, to clean my dogs, including their white bits.  I'm gratefull that they've managed to win tickets just being clean. :)
Blue shampoo for white coats is used to reduce the yellow and leave the blue colour behind, just like old ladies use their blue rinses to soften the grey! :)  If it doesn't alter the colour, then why should it be marketted for white coats if an ordinary shampoo will do the same job - clean and 'lift' because it's clean?
And there would be no need for a large trade stand to make a comment if not necessary to cover themselves.........

>If it doesn't alter the colour, then why should it be marketted for white coats if an ordinary shampoo will do the same job - clean and 'lift' because it's clean?

The shampoos for white dogs have never altered the density of colour of the spots on the rest of my dogs' coats!

The shampoos for white dogs have never altered the density of colour of the spots on the rest of my dogs' coats!
No it doesn't change darker colours like blue wouldn't change the colour of a brunette's hair BUT it does 'enhance' the white and so shouldn't be used in the ring on any coloured dog!
But each to their own of course. :)

If it doesn't change the colour (and white is an absence of colour, after all - a total lack of pigment) or texture then it's allowable, if I remember.

I have never heard of someone's exhibit being disqualified because of the shampoo they use, that is like saying to teach a dog to walk on a lead is changing its natural way of moving and therefore only dogs who are untouched and untrained can be shown. If a dog has white hair then it has white hair and providing you are not changing the colour or texture it is still white hair.

At least with shampoo (& whatever claims are made for it) it is rinsed out whereas I've never understood how chalk can be totally removed when it's applied ringside.

To go back to the original question, I have a friend who swears by Osmonds shampoos. They are on-line so you don't even have to go to a show.

Cowboy Magic does a whitening shampoo and is very popular.

This is an interesting post--is anyone going to comment on what's actually in shampoos with optical brighteners? They do leave a chemical residue on the coat after rinsing--otherwise they wouldn't work. The coating of microscopic fluorescent particles left behind reacts to ultraviolet light by converting it into visible light, and that's what causes the optical illusion that tricks our eye into thinking the dog is super white.

Many optical brighteners are derived from benzene, categorised as a class A carcinogen by the USEPA and linked with, among others, leukaemia, aplastic anaemia, skin and respiratory problems etc. You might feel that your dog's exposure to these chemicals is fairly limited and so not a problem, but what about groomers who use these products on a daily basis?

I would love to find a product that is safe, leaves no residue behind and turns the white on my dogs into white :), but I am not convinced of either the safety or ethics of the products I've seen so far.

They do leave a chemical residue on the coat after rinsing--otherwise they wouldn't work.
Eureka! :)

So do conditioners.

They also shouldn't be used in the ring!

Think this has entered the realms of stupidity and I for one do not think the OP was suggesting that her friend is trying to cheat in any way and should not be spoken to as if she was.

It is the job of the exhibitor to present their dog in the best possible way and this includes making sure it is groomed and trained and I am sure that the KC did not intend us to present our dogs dirty and untrained. All grooming aids have some effect or they would not be used, should dogs be left un-groomed because grooming changes their natural state, of course not, no more should we be prohibited from using shampoo in case it leaves a residue, and medication because we would be interfering with the natural health of the dog. There is obeying the rules and there is obeying beyond common sense.

Water is the only thing that is allowed to be used in the ring.

Of course people use all sorts of things.  My original comment, "I hope that you don't get tested!" and quoting the Kennel Club regulation was to make the exhibitor aware that nothing should be used to change the appearance of their dog's coat if they weren't already.  Of course they are at liberty to make their own choices. :)

Exactly, allowed in the ring.

You are taking the rules beyond common sense, all products used in the preparation for the ring change the natural state of the dog including scissors and clippers, flea spray and medicated shampoo. We are not talking allowed in the ring we are talking preparation and of course all preparation changes the dogs coat, all preparation from the use of a comb to the full clip of the poodle, the removal of dead hair to the removal of cow muck, the removal of tear stain to the removal of plaque - all these activities may leave a trace of the product used but common sense tells us that is not what the KC are meaning, and every effort is made to remove any residue of the product or tool used totally different from the use of mascara or hair dye.

>quoting the Kennel Club regulation was to make the exhibitor aware that nothing should be used to change the appearance of their dog's coat

I feel you're taking this into the realms of fantasy, if you don't mind me saying so. Food can alter the texture and appearance of a dog's coat - a change of diet or the addition of supplements can make the dog's coat dull or glossy, depending. The use of any shampoo will alter the appearance of the coat - that's why showdogs are bathed and not taken into the ring straight from a muddy walk! However I'm certain that's not what the KC regulation is intended to prevent.

So do conditioners

True--but my point is about the (potential) risk to health, and I would like to know if there are shampoos that do a better job of restoring white without causing other problems. I ask because for the past two years I've had chronic dermatitis on my hands for the past two years and don't want to make things worse

I use Groomers whitening shampoo on the white dogs I groom. I also used to use it on my boy who got wee stains on his tummy and leg feathering, it brought it up nicely white. And I'm sure I wasn't breaking any rules as it was of course rinsed out thoroughly as any shampoo would be. :-)

True--but my point is about the (potential) risk to health,

Well why is this the first time you have mentioned it, so far you have made many statements none concerning health.

Why would a shampoo designed to perform best on white hair or black hair be any more likely to cause skin problems that a shampoo designed for any other purpose, clutching and straws come to mind but I will review my thoughts should anyone come up with a study that shows a shampoo designed for white hair is any more likely to have any more effect on a dogs health than one just designed to strip the oil and dirt.

It isn't the first time I've mentioned it--see above, Nova, and an earlier post on another part of the forum asking about whitening shampoos. My reference here is to the use of benzene in optical brighteners, present in several brands of whitening shampoo. I'm  don't understand your reference to clutching at straws--are you confusing my post with WestCoast's by any chance?

> Think this has entered the realms of stupidity

Totally!

are you confusing my post with WestCoast's by any chance?

Yes, sorry but I still think there is no evidence that should cause you to worry and thousands if not millions of people useing such products.

Reply to Nova re: health risks in Optical brighteners and white enhancing shampoos. 

Optical brighteners are listed as toxic to fish, and non biodegradable.  There are several classifications of optical brighteners.  The most common one where the particles that create the optical illusion of brighteing are derived from benzene, a known irritant, and particles can stay on the skin causing allergic reactions, and sunburn like burns.  All optical brighteners are listed as known irritants in the chemical codex.

Other whitening shampoos may contain bleach which over time will cause a structural breakdown of the hair shaft, cause yellowing, and also a known skin irritant.

Unfortunately animal grooming products in the UK are outside of the laws for INCI listings on the labels the products sold here can contain unkown % of potentially hazardous substances.  The USA and other countries do require an INCI listing, and the FDA have strict (scientifically proven) limits on certain substances.  So you do not know what you are subjecting your animal to, and not just talking about brighteners but other raw materials.

But has any one actually known of a problem caused by the shampoo that was proven to be the shampoo?

Are you talking about a specific brand and formulation? 

If you don't understand my previous post it says that the INGREDIENTS in "whitening" shampoos (general) are PROVEN scientifically to be known irritants / toxic / hazardous and that degree or classification depends on the actual substance and the derivative.

If you want I have a 390 page report in full chemical analysis of all recognised ECD cosmetic (which dog shampoo ingredients will fall under) ingredients that shows all relevant information but it would take up rather alot of space on the forum !

And yes there are many many recorded instances of reactions to shampoos, etc.  I suggest you talk to a veterinary dermatologist.

Are you then suggesting that we wash our dogs in nothing but water?
Everything we touch these days has reams of information "Somewhere" if you care to hunt for it, that states it is unhealthy but I for one take it on face value. These shampoos/conditioners etc.. were designed with dogs coats in mind and unless I use something that produces an adverse reaction, I do not spend my life worrying about the "what if's"
I use the plush puppy whitening shampoo on the white bibs and feet of my girls and rinse thouroughly after, that is acceptable, coat dye is not nor is artificially colouring in noses etc... but as long as you are not using a shampoo with dye in it is it fine. As someone else said I find it hard to believe that some of the dogs who seem to be dipped in chalk can possibly have every bit groomed out before going into the ring..they shake and dissapear in a cloud of chalk!!! I would be far more worried that the chalk would irritate skin. I feel that if you wash your dog properly then they should be white without the use of chalk. (And if anyone says it is to enhance coat texture then yes..that is cheating)
Aileen

Yes I am sure there will be some dogs that have problems just as some have allergic reactions and like us they seem to be getting far more common but are there any groomers that have had problems with a particular shampoo, it is of no use knowing that some dogs may react to shampoo is there a general problem with a particular substance. Many dogs have problems these days with certain food stuffs and I owned a dog that was allergic to daffodils but I don't think it is generalised although she will not have been alone.

You see what I am after, if there is a problem in using shampoo on dogs what is it that is causing the problem in particular and has anyone personal experience. Also interested if it also applies to human shampoo I have used one that caused problems but the problem went when I stopped using it so not a problem really, it was supposed to be HP balanced but that balance did not suit me it would seem.

Wash you dogs in nothing but water?  Where on earth do you read into that?  Just stating plain and simple facts of KNOWN cosmetic ingredients being noted for one reason or another.  Up to you if you use anything with them in or not.  Just like humans react to certain ingredients so do animals, or have you never ever had or heard of an allergic reaction or contact dermatitis?

I don't need to "hunt for information", I have it to hand as a qualified pharmaceautical formulater (and that includes cosmetics / animal topical applications).  I don't take scientifically proven knowledge on face value.

Thank you very much harkback, your posts confirm exactly what I have read. I have developed contact dermatitis as a result of using a well known brand of household cleaner (and I had gloves on at the time) and have had over two years of trouble with it that the usual prescription defaults of cortisone have not been able to fix. Bad enough that I have this, but would be devastated if my dogs suffered.

I have found Showseason shampoos the best. For whites i use Showseason Bright or Showseason Clean, i like them as they are less likely to irritate and Showseason do list their ingredients. They are available here in the UK from MSH Supersharp services.

thanks fushang, I  looked this up on the Showseason website and they do have a data sheet--but ingredients are listed as "trade secret."

they are available on request but not their speed dry products - dont blame them with that one they are great :)

There are the Happy Tails spa shampoos, they do list the ingredients on their website and are available from Collarways uk but ive never tried them.

It is frustrating when manufacturers wont disclose their ingredients or if they do they are misleading, human shampoos have to be listed by law but not pet ones.

> It is frustrating when manufacturers wont disclose their ingredients or if they do they are misleading, human shampoos have to be listed by law but not pet ones.

Ah now, that doesn't seem at all fair, when KC rules forbid the use of certain substances.

thanks so much, fushang, Happy Tails look promising and I'll try their yoghurt and honey mix out. It is a real shame there aren't more manufacturers who focus on products that are actually good for dogs

It is a real shame there aren't more manufacturers who focus on products that are actually good for dogs

if you want a company that concentrates on the dog's health skin & coat, then I'd recommend MD-10 (spanish company), they seem to be all about that - no I do not work for them & I only use one of their products as it works for that particular breed & I have found another product for my other breed & it works, so not looking to change.

That's great MADDOG, I've just seen from their website that they will be at Manchester next month so will hunt them out there. Thank you again for your lead!

Incidentally I have sent in this same question to Pro Groomer--waiting to see whether anyone answers...

I use MD-10 too.  Brings up the white lovely and not by changing the colour, just gets out the dirt withouth to much effort.

Kelco Plum White shampoo is brilliant,its very mild and all the ingredients are listed on the bottle.I've used the Kelco shampoos for years and have never had a dog(or my hands) react to any of them.http://www.technogroom.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?pName=kelco-plum-white-shampoo-354ml&cName=shampoo-and-conditioner-kelco-shampoos-and-conditioners

Following the discussion on use of shampoos, coat enhancers etc, has anyone watched the Eukanuba master class series (episode 5 "What Makes a World Class Groomer?")? The panel members offer some interesting ((and contrasting) contributions to the debate. Log on to:

http://www.dogworld.tv/masterclasses