We have a 2yr old fawn bitch (our 2nd much loved pug now) & are considering breeding her but are trying to gather accurate & helpful information regarding the whole process. There seems to be alot of conflicting information as to exactly what the best process is. Furthermore, some breeders seem pre-occupied with the notion that all pug owners who consider breeding but don't have prior knowledge or experience are unsuitable, despite the fact that they might actually want to breed for a love of pugs as opposed to making money.

Sooo, the info we have so far (tell me if its accurate/inaccurate); She has been checked by the vet recently, after her 2nd season & was in good health. We understand its best to not attempt breeding before 2yrs or the 3rd season, let alone fair to the dog. She has reached her adult size & has a rather athletic shape for a pug, certainly not overweight or chunky like some. She also has fantastic stamina & energy for a pug & her breathing is very good. She is KC registered since birth & we have both parents history.

We have a stud in mind (5yrs old) who is similar in look & colouring & is also in good health. He is slightly larger around the neck but otherwise is of similar size. We understand this is important. Also, we have consulted a lab breeder regarding the mating process but are unsure if the same applies to pugs. Firstly, when is the best time to mate? We have been told the first 7-10 days may not be a good time whilst blood flow is slightly higher & that the 2nd 7-10 days are the best time to mate. Is this accurate? How receptive will the pair be? We introduced them to each other recently to see how they got on but she wasn't keen on him coming anywhere near. She preferred to look down on him from the top of the furniture. Obviously she wasn't in heat though at this point.

We understand the pregnancy to be on average 63 days & there is a risk with this particular breed of a c-section being required. If this happens then we won't allow her to become pregnant again but wonder what % of pugs tend to require a c-section & what % of both pups & mothers survive? We don't want to put her at risk. We also have a whelping box suitable for her & have a suitable area for the pups to sleep, play, eat etc when they start to grow.

Thanks in advance for anyone who can clarify or add to the above & advise us further. We love our pugs & feel they are the best breed of dog available, always craving affection & attention. The thought of our pug successfully having pups & being a good mother would be amazing.

There is more to a healthy dog then just taking it for a quick check up at the vets, I dont know if there are any health tests for your breed but its worth doing them to make sure she is not harbouring any genetic nasties.

I dunno how much homework you have done on the stud boy but the next suggestion I can give is... a stud dog at the age of 5 should be proven and if so what are his pups like? Have any gone to the show ring or agility or obediance and if so how have they done? And what are the health tests of his offspring? If none of the above then look else where.

Has he or your bitch done anything of note?

Has a similar breeding taken place before i.e. lines wise and what has been produced? As not all dogs and bitches go together well.

> some breeders seem pre-occupied with the notion that all pug owners who consider breeding but don't have prior knowledge or experience are unsuitable

I dont know much about pugs but I wonder if they are hard to breed i.e. lots could go wrong thats breed specific.

All of these points needs to be considered well before the breeding takes place.

Hi Swisspug, you should use the private message facility here on the forum to contact fellow member Gwen, she is an experienced breeder of Pugs and American Cocker Spaniels. Gwen will be able to give you accurate breed specific information, and useful advice.

Dawn R.

Have a read of this link..
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/124620.html

There are health tests and i'd be going down the route of getting any breeding stock health tested.
Also you mention that both are KC reg, do either still have their endorsements still on them? If so you won't be able to register any pups until this is lifted by the breeder.

A friend of mine is wanting to breed his Pug but he'll be hipscoring etc before he does anything.  Although there are not many health tests that they recommend some people are now ensuring that they go the right way.

We do all sound a bit down but I am going to add to the doom I'm afraid. Breeding, all of it is difficult in any breed from mating to vetting new homes and taking pups back and fighting off threats of court action. Now I do not know about Pugs personally but I understand they are high on the problem list right along the line but particularly at birth and ongoing health problems so I doubt they are a good breed to start your breeding experience with.

Would at the very least use an experience stud whose owner is willing to support you throughout and also the help and support of the bitches breeder

Hi, good to know you are doing lots of research before leaping in.  To start off, pugs are not an easy breed, and to be honest I would probably  never had another litter if my first pug litter had been my first time breeding (had been breeding American Cockers for 10 years before started with pugs so had accumlated a fair bit of knowledge and experience.)

Taking one of your points first, and pregnancy and whelping carries risks and the possibility of losing your bitch, it is not common but it can  and does happen.

Next, why do you want to breed?  It sounds like you love your girl, but from your despcription she is perhaps not an excellent specimen of the breed?  If this is the case, and the pug dog is of a similar type, then you are wanting it have a litter without wanting to contribute anything to the breed as a whole.  Generally, we try to breed to further the betterment of the breed in some way.  I understand that you say she is fit and healthy with good breathing, but the ideal is to have the attributes as well as a quality pug who meets the breed standard.  You are at the best unlikely to produce good quality pugs by mating a pair who have common faults, not having seen either dog or bitch and just going by what you write I think you would produce a lightweight, leggy pug, untypical of the breed, although all too often seen in "pet bred" pugs.  IF you are determined that your girl has something valuable to add to the breed gene pool then at least you need to find a high quality dog for her who meets the breed standard as well as having all the correct health criteria.

Next, health issues, this is a bit of a hot potato in the breed, there are no KC listed conditions.  However, lots of breeders look at issues which they feel concern them and are testing - we think that xrays for Hemivertebrae are the most important.  Some breeders are  hip testing.  It is something to research and decide what is best for you.  You also need to know and understand the health issues of the dogs behind her in the pedigree, at least for her parents and grandparents.  It is good to know that she has great stamina and breathing, but this SHOULD be standard for all pugs - a pug bred by us is succesfully doing competitive agility, and several others are training for it, you can't do this without good breathing!  Just because they have a short nose and may sound a little snuffly, they still need to have the ability to go out and do things.

IF your chosen stud  dog is 5 and has never mated a bitch, and both you and his owner are novices, it is highly unlikley you will achieve a mating, in my opinion.

You say you have a whelping box - do you also have the time to bring up this litter?  Many pug bitches are not naturally maternal - but even with maternal bitches you  need to have the time to be on hand 24 hours per day for the first 3 - 4 weeks.

I am sure other pug people will be along to add lots of other bits I have missed.  IF you want more one ot one help or advice please feel free to either PM or email me.

Hi swisspug,

I'm also new to breeding (my first litter is in the early stages of labour as I type) getting lots of cuddles and back rubs to keep her calm whilst she nests and just clings to us for support.  She is an endangered large breed that have relatively few health issues but we have had a lot of health testing done. - VWD, CLAD, eyes, hips & general health checks as well as having her checked over by judges and people at breed shows.  It was only once we had their approval that she was of good enough stock to help the gene pool (her pedigree is quite rare as most of the puppies from her line have gone on to working or pet homes) that we went ahead. 

We met A LOT of resistance at first and I started to think why is everyone trying to put me off- it can't be taht awful if they all do it!  Now I'm glad they did because it made me think so hard about my decision and how it would affect me and my bitch - it is so much hard work mentally and physically (our puppies haven;t even arrived yet and i'm nakered) from timing seasons, false season, waiting for test results, showing (something I've never done before) to just trying to get a stud dog owner to talk to us despite us not having bred 50,000 champion show dogs.  But there is a way in, just stay genuine take all the knocks follow most of the advice you get (I say most as the amount of contradictory advice we've had is unbelieveable) we've gone with our own common sense and let our bitch guide us.  Everyone starts somewhere and whether you just want to expand your hobby/ passion for dogs by seeing the bigger picture or you have dreams of becoming a champion commerical breeder, it all starts out of something. 

I know Pugs are a high risk breed but all i can say is if you haven't been put off too much then find a mentor and follow your dream but expect it to be stressul, tiring, demanding, to take over your life & heartbreaking at times and i wish you so much goodluck I really hope your bitch is up to standard and you find out everything you need to.  Champdogs is invaluable it is one of the best sources of advice and supprt you'll find (apart from a mentor).

Good luck & keep searching for information get the book fo the bitch, dog breeding for professionals & a guide to breeding a litter (I'm sure people on here have other advice too) expect not to sleep for a month and to loose some money but best of luck xxxxxx

Hi swisspug, I'm going to own up now ... I know absolutely nowt about pugs! I know what they look like and that's about it. However, breeding whatever type of dog, there are many common basics.

You are doing your research and you sound quite sensible in what you're asking. Was your pug from an established and experienced breeder (as opposed to someone like yourself)? If so, have you been in touch with them? What you're looking for I guess is their support in your intention, and preferrably as much information/advice/hands on experience that you can get. Suck them dry of any help/advice they're willing to give you, in the nicest possible way!

I bred my first litter this summer, so I am a novice breeder. However, I have been in the very fortunate position to have been mentored by my breeder friend (bred 3 of my dogs) for a number of years which enabled me to be at the birth of 10 litters, and I have helped to raise every single one of those litters - not just occasional visits, but I've been there mopping up the poos, the vomit, anything that may come along. I think I have probably had far more of an introduction to breeding that the majority of first timers. If you can get some hands on experience I really do recommend it.

You need to look at health testing or your breed, not just a health check up by your vet. I have a lot of respect for vets, but it has become apparent that there are not many with breeding experience. You've got someone on the replies who can advise you of testing. With my breeds testing I've carried out the recommended testing, but I've gone beyond that in order to ensure I am doing whatever I can to produce healthy pups.

You need to have a good hard think about why you're breeding and who your market is going to be. Again, this is where a breeder mentor is invaluable. 3/4s of the orders for my summer litter were via the breeder, the rest I picked up myself. I had pups ordered before a mating took place, I needed more pups than I got! You need to secure some orders before mating, in my opinion.

In a way I'm lucky in that I don't have to worry about meeting a breed standard.  Whilst I have fantastically beautiful dogs none of mine would do anything in the breed ring. However, I am breeding for their work ability (much in demand) in order to carry out the jobs that they do.

If you search through some of the posts here, you'll see that there are no set times for mating ... my summer girly mated from day 27 :-O

What you do have to bear in mind that whenever you put your bitch through a whelping that poses a risk to her. We can con ourselves into believing it's a small risk, but it is a risk. Again, have a search through the postings - in the summer there were a few people who had very tragic whelpings which resulted in a litter of pups but the death of the Mum. Whilst you do everything you can to minimise the risk, it is always there.

I hope you find the answers that you're looking for.

Thanks to everyone who has posted & offered advice. I'm very impressed with how you have all been helpful & positive rather than dismissive (like I've seen elsewhere). We have to point out that we don't have a financial target or orders to meet in the litter size. This isn't about finance or becoming a breeder. The likelihood is that all of the pups would stay with us (depending on litter size), possibly with one going to a relative.

Like we say, we simply love the breed & would like more. Whether this is through buying another or by pups we don't know. To be honest, after reading your posts I feel like there is much more research to be done. I even feel a little disappointed in my Vet as when I asked them questions they simply pointed me in the direction of the internet. It makes me worry that if they have such little to offer in terms of breeding knowledge, what would they be like if I depended on them to deliver the pups? or even worse perform a c-section?

Thanks again for the practical & informative advice.

Actually a part of me is really impressed your vets pointed you to the internet (odd as that may sound).  I appreciate a vet who knows their limitations and at least the internet is a place to start to try and find people of your breed.

To give them their due, vets are great with the emergencies (ie c-section etc), the birthing process, but when it comes to responsibly breeding specific breeds, they don't necessarily know all the ins and outs of each breed as far as what is required for the KC for finding the right match etc, and a vet who admits they don't know everything actually sounds pretty good to me.  My vets were great with my first litter - answering my questions that they could, but very aware that with my contacts in my chosen breed, I likely knew far more breed specific things than they did.

I would definitely do more research, but I wouldn't be put off by the response from your vets to the point of worrying if they could cope with a section.

Here's some good sites about breeding in general

http://www.learntobreed.com/

It looks like she's moving the site at the moment so it's not complete.  There was a 'virtual breeding' page which went through a potential breeding/whelping and gave you choices along the lines of the 'choose your own adventure' books.  It is/was pretty eye opening.

Truly the best decision you could make about breeding is to find yourself a really good mentor (the best possibility would be your girl's breeder as she would hopefully know the lines the best), maybe see a whelping first hand before breeding your own girl, and they can talk you through so much.

I applaud you for doing your research and starting so early, and also to being open to NOT breeding if that's the case :)  Best of luck!

Re:- http://www.learntobreed.com/

Just had a quick look at this - she believes in castrating/spaying her puppies between 2 - 6 months, sometimes being done before leaving her!  Not sure I would recommend the site.

> This isn't about finance or becoming a breeder. The likelihood is that all of the pups would stay with us (depending on litter size), possibly with one going to a relative.
>
>

My friend's Pug recently had 7 puppies. Are you really prepared for an instant pack of Pugs?  :)  Trying to housetrain that lot all at once would be a nightmare! :(

>Like we say, we simply love the breed & would like more. Whether this is through buying another or by pups we don't know.
>The likelihood is that all of the pups would stay with us (depending on litter size), possibly with one going to a relative.

Keeping siblings is rarely a good idea, whatever the size of dog, they often depend far more on each other than you and training can be incredibly difficult with each needing a lot of 1:1 training time.  There are a few people on CD who've done this and they have some eye opening advice - hopefully Marianne will be along soon :)  There will also be the inherent problems of keeping immature dogs and bitches for the period before they can be neutered or spayed but are capable of mating and producing puppies.

Taking into acount the risk to your bitch and the overall difficulties associated with whelping your breed; added to the possibility that your girl isn't the best of type to breed from, then it would seem that buying a puppy might actually be the best idea.  You may be able to choose an excellent puppy from which to breed later if you fancy having a go at showing and this might be a great way to find a good mentor too.

Watch out for nice sounding puppy farmers who aren't as easy to spot as you'd like, if you are going to look at puppy sales sites.  Have you ever seen your breed at shows?  It's a good place to 'get your eye in' and see the type of dog you like and once you have a catalogue you'll find it quite interesting to look at the breeders.  If you let us know where you are then I'm sure someone can tell you where you could visit.  Don't forget Crufts in March too which will be a great place for you look and meet more of the breed at Discover Dogs. 

>My friend's Pug recently had 7 puppies. Are you really prepared for an instant pack of Pugs?

I have a book with a picture on the cover of a pug bitch with her litter of 10!

Keeping more than one pup from a litter is to be avoided at all costs.

I agree we decided to keep a pup back from our last litter but we also was holding a pup for exporting and WOW is all I can say, it was only for a few extra weeks but everything was 100 times harder lots of fun but its not something Id do out of choice.

I'm very impressed with how you have all been helpful & positive rather than dismissive

That's cause you came on asking sensible questions and showing you've thought a little about it, and are prepared to think more ;-) If people are dismissive it'll be in a way to make you really think. There are a lot of people who come on here asking for advice, but just looking at the way they phrase things it is obvious they are not doing it in order to produce fabulous, well socialised puppies that will fit into any environment today's society throws at it.

It makes me worry that if they have such little to offer in terms of breeding knowledge, what would they be like if I depended on them to deliver the pups

There are very good vets and there are very good vets with a lot of breeding knowledge. I have very good vets but they know tiddly squat about breeding matters (I've got the bills, the tears & heartache to prove it). However, what you have to remember with vets is that they rarely become involved with the planning to breed side and the healthy pregnancies and litters, they normally only see the emergencies (the c-sections) and the badly planned/reared & ill products of breeding. So don't be too concerned on the vet front.

You have got tons and tons more to learn yet before you go into this - if you do it correctly. Even breeding just one litter you are a breeder. I've no idea what price pugs go for, but it's just as well it's not about finance for you, as if you are doing everything correctly I would be extremely surprised if you made any money. At the very best I think you can only hope to cover costs but that may not be possible. With my litter each pup was very heavily subsidised!

If you do eventually decide to go ahead, you should, as other posters have said, be prepared for a larger than average litter. In my experience, the unexpected tends to leap up and bite you on the bum when you haven't made any contingency plans! Keeping even 2 pups will be extremely hard work, and you do need to have some puppy homes lined up before you take the decision to mate.

Raising my summer litter was a magical experience, something that I'd planned for 3 1/2 years, and been working towards for even more years. I am very much looking forward to my next litter in the summer, hopefully (puppy orders are already in), but I put a huge amount of work and effort into the litter. I had 3+ months without work (self-employed ... ish) in order to spend the time to do all the socialisation etc, with them.

The easiest (and cheapest) option is definitely buy a pup from someone else who has spent the huge amounts of money on health tests, stud fees, loss of income, etc, etc. :-)  :-)

>">I even feel a little disappointed in my Vet as when I asked them questions they simply pointed me in the direction of the internet. It makes me worry that if they have such little to offer in terms of breeding knowledge,

Very few Vets have expertise in canine reproduction, unless they are a specialist or a breeder themselves.  Even less so when it comes to breed specific information, especially for the the breeds that are far from average (toys, etc).

They know how to perform a C section, or administer drugs to speed up whelping, but few have any expereince of normal whelping.

VETS DIAGNOSE & TREAT DISEASE this they have learned to do for may differnet species, breeding is not their normal area of expertise and to be honest it would be a bit much to expect, as it would have to cover from Mouse to Elephant..  They will only have knowledge of the basic processes.

> Just had a quick look at this - she believes in castrating/spaying her puppies between 2 - 6 months, sometimes being done before leaving her!  Not sure I would recommend the site.

That's a cultural difference - a very common view in the US.  Just because she has one practice that we don't agree with or do in this country doesn't mean that everything else she has to say is poor.

To Susiebell, i loved reading your reply i thought it was the best advice, anyone could receive, well put!!

I used to come on Champdogs alot years ago, haven't been on here for ages but must admit i gained alot from coming on here!!

Susan