Hi,

We went to see a breeder yesterday, we spent two hours with the puppies, they also had mum and dad there. The dogs appeared to be very well socialised, mum appeared to be very attentive mother with the pups all the time, feeding and keeping an eye on the puppies all the time when they moved. They were 3 weeks old.

The mum let the breeders kids pick up the puppies and cuddle them,they seemed very friendly and tolerant. The temperament appeared to be very good.

Owner had 7 other dogs of this breed, all very good with people. They were also very knowledgable about the breed in question along with other dogs. Something that did set some alarm bells going is another one of their dogs had also just given birth, apparently they were in heat at similar times. This did set some alarm bells ringing, am I right to be concerned?

They also showed us the KC papers, after seeing them in the morning we phoned them last night to say we would be interested in a girl puppy.

This concerned me as I have read everywhere you should never let a puppy go till they are 8 weeks old, I asked the breeder and he said about various breeds having different times that they would let them go, they seems very knowledgable.

I've been researching the dog I'm going to buy and have books to ensure I understand fully what I'm getting myself into, the breeder seemed very good apart from this.

Can anyone give advice here?

I'd say 6 weeks is too young; I prefer the weekend after the pups are 7 weeks old is better than 8 weeks because that's when they start to enter a 'fear period'.

depends on the breed , giant breeds generally go 7-8 weeks , but due to their size 7 weeks is ok to a experienced home

If you are considering the larger of the two breeds you have been asking questions about then it is VITAL that you take breed specific advice. 

One of the breed clubs for this breed state in their code of ethics: "Ideally no puppy should leave the breeder before 8 weeks of age and in any event never before 7 weeks of age."

I'd be concerned about the need to mate two bitches at the same time.  Whilst there may be genuine reasons for it it's not something to be undertaken lightly and unless this is a breeder that comes highly recommended by other breed experts then I'd say it's a genuine cause for concern.   Also, please do not be tempted to take a dog from any but health tested parents - what information did the breeder give you about the results of these?

> I'd be concerned about the need to mate two bitches at the same time.

Not the norm in large/giant breeds, but after a couple of years of total disappointments, fully understand why it happens in some breeds.

I was never going to get what I wanted the way things were going, so mated 2 bitches within a couple of weks of each other.  Litters were born back in the springtime.

My first bitch had one dead puppy.  Second bitch had 2 pups.  Sorry dogs a babe, just pointing out that there is sometimes a need. 

I agree with what others have said & no earlier than 7 weeks, preferrably 8 weeks.

There could be perfectly genuine reason for having 2 litters at the same time, although it's not something I would do...far to much work with one litter, let alone 2!

My way round this is to either say that you would prefer to have the pup at 7/8 weeks or say that you are unable to have the pup before it is 7/8 weeks.

I would not get a puppy b4 8 weeks- they learn so much from their mom and siblings on how to play with in that time... I no with smaller breeds like Yorkies some breeders don't place them till 11-12 weeks of age...

If everything else is ok, I would go with your gut feeling about the breeders, as people.  If they seemed nice people and you liked them, I would give them the benefit of the doubt and speak with them about it. 

7 wks is widely considered perfectly acceptable for them to go to their new home - they don't have to be 8 wks. 

6 wks is not ideal - I don't think it would be disastrous.  It wouldn't have been my choice but we did bring home one of ours at 6 wks - mainly because the breeder was happy for them to go then and because the situation at the breeder's was not ideal.  She has grown up to be a great dog.  You should, however, try to avoid it....

I would speak with the breeder and express your concern.  Say that you have read that this breed should stay with mum till 7 wks and ask why this isn't happening.  Perhaps there is a way the breeder would keep on your pup till 7 wks, at least. 

It may be that, with 2 litters at once, they are realising what mess so many 7 wk old puppies could cause, and opting to let them go a week earlier.  Which is putting their own interests before the puppies' - they did choose to have 2 litters at once, after all. 

Hi,

Thanks for the replies, it would be the larger of the two breeds. I just want to be careful incase the breeder is on here.

Just to clarify this litter was born two weeks before the other litter so there is a small age gap

One thing to add is the two bitches were kept separate with their puppies, they had plenty of room and peace and quiet if needed.

With regards to scores they didn't have hip scoring, they showed us the pedigree of the dogs and the family tree's, the dogs also appeared to be in good shape with healthy coats and eyes.

I have spoken to a lot of breeders, only one had scoring information. It's all very confusing, all are KC reg but I'm starting to wonder if its just a money making scheme for the kennel club, there appear to be plenty of dogs registered that appear questionable.

This person appeared very knowledgeable and the dogs appeared to have brilliant temperament , it's all so confusing ;0))

I agree with the majority here - 7 weeks is the earliest they should be leaving the breeder.  Sounds to me as though they want to get them to their new homes early to make life easier for their second litter.

I don't know what the breed is which you're talking about, but if the breed should be hip scored, then you should only buy from a breeder who has hip scored their dogs.

You need to find the breed club for the breed concerned - Google "[Insert dog breed] Club of Great Britain' or "[Dog breed] Society" and find the website for the breed club.

Read what tests they recommend are carried out on this breed.  Also have a look here, on the Kennel Club ABS:  http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf

Check what tests they want the breed to have.

I wouldn't buy a puppy from someone who hadn't carried out the necessary tests if both the ABS and the breed club recommended them.

Healthy coats and eyes tell you nothing about what is genetically in store for you, in the future.

Thanks again, the thing that gets me is the KC club states various things but how do they ensure compliance?

The KC states that the bitch shouldn't have puppies until 2 years old but the. Book I have on the breed states 18months, the breeder told me the bitch was 18 months old.

I'm gradually starting to realise how cruel the business of puppies can be, we are just looking to give a dog a good home;0))

>With regards to scores they didn't have hip scoring, they showed us the pedigree of the dogs and the family tree's, the dogs also appeared to be in good shape with healthy coats and eyes.

Without knowing what breed it is it's impossible to know what tests the parents should have had. Hip-scoring in advisable in all breeds but only recommended in most. However there are eye tests, DNA tests, BAER testing etc which they might need.

With regards to scores they didn't have hip scoring, they showed us the pedigree of the dogs and the family tree's, the dogs also appeared to be in good shape with healthy coats and eyes.

Then don't buy the puppy. The parents should both be hip scored, breed mean score in this breed is 13 so you don't want either parent to be much above that. Parents should also be eye tested. You could be buying a time bomb -hip dysplasia and inherited eye problems usually would not show up until the dog is several years old. The fact the adult dogs appear healthy means nothing at all.

You only need to look at the posters first post to see which breed it is.  I would be unhappy having a breed like this at just 6 weeks, 7 to me is the best and the one week makes a difference.

> Just to clarify this litter was born two weeks before the other litter so there is a small age gap
>
>

I dont know of ANY reputable breeder with TWO litters ready for Christmas and prepared, indeed keen, for them to go now.

I would be very wary if you are interested in the avoidance of puppy producers with suspect ideals.

From memory (not got time to check) I was under the impression that the Breeding and Sale of Dogs Act stated 8 weeks as a minimum age a puppy could be sold? I could have got that muddled up with something else though!

> From memory (not got time to check) I was under the impression that the Breeding and Sale of Dogs Act stated 8 weeks as a minimum age a puppy could be sold? I could have got that muddled up with something else though!

Got a feeling that's for licensed breeders only.

Just wanted to add - on the OP's other thread, it's been suggested that introducing the larger breed of her choice to the smaller breed might work better if the smaller breed is the first dog.... I can see the logic of that.

>Sorry dogs a babe, just pointing out that there is sometimes a need.

Yes of course I quite understand.  I hope I made the point though that unless this is a breeder that comes highly recommended that it might be a cause for concern.  I would hope that any breeder with two litters on the ground would recognise it is a bit unusual and go out of their way to explain why they have done it in this instance.  Some breeds with small litters, rare breeds, last opportunity for a litter from a champion bitch, longed for mating and bitch comes in earlier than expected etc.  There are a lot of possible genuine reasons but it would ring alarm bells in a pet litter, or for a breeder advertising on some of those puppy sales sites.

To the OP: Finding the right breeder takes time and in a breed such as this where less than ethical breeders abound then it's so important to do the research.  If I understand correctly this breed needs hips and eye scores and a good breeder will be falling over themselves to reassure you about temperament too.  The breed clubs are so concerned about the development of their breed that they take out adverts on all the dodgy sites to warn prospective owners of the need to only buy from hip scored and eye tested parents (sire and dam) and not to look at anything less.  Please read the club ethics and guidelines and only buy this breed from someone who has extensive experience of working and showing them OR from someone that they recommend.  I think you've already had contact with someone on CD about the problems that have been created in this breed and the difficulties experienced by breed rescue.  Good luck with your decision.

>The KC states that the bitch shouldn't have puppies until 2 years old but the. Book I have on the breed states 18months, the breeder told me the bitch was 18 months old.

I have to say I would have thought that a breed of this size should be at least 2 before having a litter, They are a large breed and slow to mature as far as I know. I wouldn't consider breeding from my much smaller breed at under two

^ Agree with Admin above (It is in section 8. Sale of dogs under 1) (c) )

I would strongly advise the OP to walk away from this litter!! Please, please, take warning from what happened in my Breed (Siberian Husky) when our breed was subject to lots of poorly bred litters and opportunist litters being churned out... Our breed club had to temporarily close its door to the deluge of rescue dogs coming in - it couldn't cope!!
      The Breeders you have described would have been wise to read the code of ethics for AMCUK - Their breed's Breed Club <- the fact that clearly they haven't and have invested no time in Health testing sends alarms ringing in my head and I'd RUN A MILE!
To the OP, please,please do not fund these people who are jumping on the Bandwagon of popularity of this wounderful breed and purely and simply 'cashing in' - Please go to the breed club and invest in a wonderful dog from an ethical breeder and one who clearly cares about the breed!!!!!!

I'm glad you mentioned the breed club here huskygal, as I was about to mention it.

The breed club should be the first port of call to find out if there are any health problems that need looking into, as well as all health tests.

This is for all breeds.

If in doubt - walk away.

I'd leave well alone.. Seriously its a breed which does need to be hip scored and any good breeder would do this and from others have said eye tested. Avoid any breeder who doesn't do this or who does but ignores bad results and still continues to breed from them.

Just because a dog is KC reg doesn't mean its healthy, it just means its family tree can be traced.

As this is a very large breed dog the last thing you need is a dog which ends up with hip problems, when all that could of been prevented. The same with the eyes.
Never ever have a pup under the age of 7 weeks and i'd never ever in this size dog touch a puppy from a bitch who's had a litter before they are 2yrs old, they are not physically mature enough, as you'll know from reading breed books they take a long time to mature.

The code of ethics for the breed club are there for a reason, to try and protect the breed. Is this breeder part of the breed club? If not why not?
Have you tried to research the lines on the internet? Does this breeder show or work her dogs? There are quite a few people on here who have this breed who'd I think about sending a PM to for more indepth advice :-) Good Luck

>I was under the impression that the Breeding and Sale of Dogs Act stated 8 weeks as a minimum age a puppy could be sold?

No, that's for licenced breeders only. The section regarding sthe sale of dogs says "he sells a dog which is less than eight weeks old otherwise than to the keeper of a licensed pet shop or a licensed Scottish rearing establishment." Licenced breeders can sell puppies at any age, but if they're under 8 weeks they can only be sold to pet shops, not directly to the public.

There is no legal age of sale for puppies from 'ordinary' breeders.

>Thanks again, the thing that gets me is the KC club states various things but how do they ensure compliance?

They can't ensure compliance - they are not the police (!) all they can do is to recommend what is best.  It is then for reputable breeders to choose to comply, and for puppy buyers to educate themselves and choose puppies from reputable breeders.

>The KC states that the bitch shouldn't have puppies until 2 years old but the. Book I have on the breed states 18months, the breeder told me the bitch was 18 months old.

18 months for this breed (now I know what it is!) would be scarcely out of adolescence.  This, combined with the 6 wks puppy leaving home, not hip-scoring stock, and having 2 litters at once, is all adding up to spell a clear message that you should stay away.

>I'm gradually starting to realise how cruel the business of puppies can be, we are just looking to give a dog a good home;0))

Yes, but you don't want that dog to then cost you a lot of money for health reasons because it came from untested stock and to grow up to have temperament (aggression) issues because it left the litter at 6 wks and so didn't experience enough discipline from mum - not to mention the emotional trauma for yourselves when you discover it has hip dysplacia or a non-ideal temperament.  (Which then might mean you could never have your other, smaller, breed after all!).

Young bitch mated
Pups sold young
No health Tests
2 litters at once

I say walk from this one there are plenty more out there.

>I'm gradually starting to realise how cruel the business of puppies can be, we are just looking to give a dog a good home;0))

The cruelty lies with the 'breeders' who use puppies as a cash crop, who do not perform the necessary tests, mate immature bitches and exploit people who "are just looking to give a dog a good home".

Puppy farmers and unethical breeders are not always so easy to spot (they aren't all in Wales!) but the best bet is to ask all your questions over the telephone first.  Some of the very best breeders will be interviewing you rather than the other way around.  Save yourself some heartache and do not be tempted to visit unless you get the information you want.  Looking for a treasured furry friend to share your life with should be an interesting journey but it won't be quick.  The best breeders will be spend months if not years in the planning of their next litter and you may need to go on a waiting list.  Don't be tempted to rush - the right puppy, and breeder, will be worth the wait :)

YOU MUST NOT ACCEPT A PUPPY OFF THESE PEOPLE if they are prepared to let a puppy go at 6 weeks.  Any reputable breeder of this breed would not let a puppy go before 8 weeks.  What others have said is absolutely bang on.  Breed club membership and therefore adherance to the club Code Of EThics is the mnimum standard you should be looking for.  Take your time, contact the breed club, visit shows / working events (even if you do not plan to work show you dog yourself) and DO NOT rush in to getting the first pup that becomes available.  There will be good well bred pups from good responsible breeders turning up in time.  Just be patient and check every one out carefully before commiting yourself.  If something just doesn't feel quite right then walk away.  Feel free to PM me for further advice.

Couldn't agree with Triona more. Walk away, you don't know what heartache you might be facing in the future if you go down this route.

am i right in thinking its a malamute? Definately dont get one from this breeder.

Ah now I know the breed we're talking about .
If its a malamute then no, they should not be bred before 2 years of age and both the mother and father should be hip scored and eye tested with the KC/BVA schemes. This is not money making on behalf of the KC, its for the health and welfare of all breeds of dogs. A good breeder of any breed will be able to show you documented proof that these tests have been done and their results.

If I was in the market for a malamute, would I buy one here, going entirely from what you have said, no.

Strongly recommend walking away from this breeder!

Pups are too young at six weeks
Mum is too young to have been bred from
Both parents most definitely should have been hip scored 
Both parents most definitely should have been eye tested

Malamute club code of ethics - http://www.alaskanmalamute.org.uk/code%20of%20ethics.htm

Please feel free to contact me if you'd like any advice on reputable breeders and please do not be in a rush to get a puppy.

Don't touch any litter that has not had the parents hip socred or any other relevant health tests.

For KC registraion health testing is not manadatory, but for responsible breeding it is, and sadly this is a breed that is fashionable and as a result has attracted many bank book breeders, not breed lovers who do things properly.

And they have been bred Knowing that two litters of (very specialist) pups would be available at CHRISTMAS.

Did this breeder also have another breed as well by any chance ?

>And they have been bred Knowing that two litters of (very specialist) pups would be available at CHRISTMAS.

The OP said they are 3 weeks old at the moment, so if they go at 6 weeks old, that's January 1st.
(still too young though!).

Thanks for your advice everyone, to be fair to the breeder he did say they would be good to go on the 8th January,so they wouldn't be Christmas dogs. Not far off though.

I have now found a breeder of the AMCUK that is due puppies in a couple of months, all scoring is available.

I think you have made a wise decision. 

http://www.alaskanmalamute.org.uk/code%20of%20ethics.htm - look at point 22, may be relevent as you are considering having another breed of dog at some stage too - would hate anything bad to happen.

This person appeared very knowledgeable
If I am looking at a car, the salesman can sound very knowledgable to me because I know nothing about cars!  It's the when the average person goes to look at puppies....... :(

> This person appeared very knowledgeable
>

Cynical, but be prepared that some breeders will tell you everything you want to hear and not necessarily the truth. 

There is knowledgeable and there is normal correct practice and there are those who know but do not do, it is easy to talk the talk but do they actually do, in this case obviously they don't.

Too true, and I fell for it hook line and sinker!