I'm just wondering how experienced - yet small-scale - breeders decide on how many dogs to have, of which sexes, to keep their lines going.

We are only ever going to be v small scale, with no more than 4 dogs at any one time.  We only have bitches at the moment so the idea was then to always choose outside stud dogs. 

However, the gene pool in our breed in the UK is small and as we are going to choose a stud dog from abroad and potentially bring new blood in, we were wondering if it would make better sense to keep a boy from our next litter - for use in the UK if he meets the grade in all ways.

However, we would then have both entire males and females - which is problematic for avoiding unwanted pregnancies.  And even if we went down the boy-only route - we would then want to build on where we had got to - and if we had a boy to 'build' on, the only way we could do that would be to have a pup from a litter he had sired.  Assuming there was one we liked enough to want a pup from.  All in all, it just seems a bit messier in terms of a plan, going the 'boy only' route.  Unless all the boys were from different lines and our goal was to provide new blood, with our choice of boys for the UK's gals!

I don't know if this is making any sense as it is a bit of a jumbly question - but I hope people can see the situation.  Obviously if we could have 100 dogs, we would have several different lines and could have both the studs and bitches etc - but we want to have only a few, select, dogs which we aim to achieve highly with.  Do people in this situation go for all girls, all boys, or both?  (Not sure latter would work.!)

Does anyone have any advice or suggestions, or how have other people managed to negotiate plans for the future...?  Thanks.

I personally keep only bitches, as I cannot separate the sexes ans still live the way we want.

It looks like we may be up to 6 dogs if the trip to USA produces the bitch we want.

With a  breed of average longevity this will be the number you have if you keep a pup every 2 1/2 - 3 years and only one per generation.

So to keep fewer than 5 or 6 you might need to team up with a person with similar aims and alternate the generations, you breed a puppy which they then breed from and you have a puppy, you breed and they get a puppy etc.

The other way many choose to keep numbers down is re-homing retired show and breeding dogs and bitches.

For many of us this as a routine measure (as opposed to occasionally because dogs don't get on etc) is not acceptable, as it rather defeats the purpose of having the dogs in the first place, their lifelong companionship.

Others can justify re-homing dogs after they have 'served their purpose' in the breeding program, or have failed to make the grade.

I know it is not very popular in England but in Norden Europe (where I come from) most breeders are such small scale breeders you describe and dare I say many top dogs come from these countries such as Sweden, Finland and Norway.

The way they do it is use breeding terms agreements or loan back dogs they have bred(not so common).
Many people I know have an ownership of +10 dogs that do not live with them. Some will be used for breeding by themselves, some not but they have a choice of dogs and can be picky of what they continue with. Many people will also import and place these puppies in breeding terms families so it is not just used to place your own lines/puppies but other lines they might wish to incorporate with their lines later or even see as could benefit the breeding base in the country(which of course indirectly benefits them as well in the future).

In UK it is not a practice used a lot and many people have a very negative attitude towards it but in my opinion it is the way to go to give breeders larger selections of dogs (like breeders with large kennels would have had in the past). Over the years I have seen it working out more often than not.
Saying that, I have heard of some breeding terms agreements made here that to me sound very unfair and I would not be surprised the family receiving the dog feeling "done in" by the breeder at later date, which of course does not create the relationship people in such partnership should have!

The kennel clubs in these Nordic countries where it is pretty common practice support it and provide set forms for breeding terms puppies and breeders are told to use these forms (and host families to demand the forms to be used) as what is required of each party has been set to be as is seen "fair for both parties".

Just as an example my older girl who comes from Finland, the breeder does not even keep any bitches at home, the mother was out on breeding terms.
Out of the litter (10 pups) 4 puppies went out on breeding terms again so the breeder has a choice of continuing with what they deemed best dogs to continue with. As it has worked out, they have not yet used any of the puppies they kept ownership of but are getting a pup from my girl to "keep the line" - The said puppy is also going out on breeding terms, not residing with my dogs breeder. However she did check I am happy with the home she will be placing the boy in as well as I will of course have a lot of contact with them too. It is all very much based on mutual trust&respect as well as contracts set by the kennel club.

You could place a boy on breeding terms and if he turns out great I'm sure there will be a litter you can have a girl back or you might in the future have a bitch that would go with the boy. Of course if the boy does not turn out what you hoped for, the host family will have a wonderful pet and you will not be "stuck" with a boy that is no use for you in working your lines forwards.

Noora - would it be possible for you to either put up, or post a link to your KC's breeding terms agreement - in English :)

Sadly this scheme is fraught with poblems.    However much you trust your people who have your bitch.     Especially if you have send a bitch to Germany - may happen in other countries.

I was co-owner of a bitch I bred - she was the only pup of our bitch - the stud dog owner had travelled from Southern Germany to serve her, so I reckoned a 'nice idea' would be for us to be co-owners.    I trained her nearly to field trial standard for two years, but the training was going pear-shaped big time, and I suggested to our co-owner that a change of trainer might be beneficial, so she went over to Germany to continue training.

After a year I get a phone call to say that they want to lose me as co-owner.......  I refused.    Eventually it comes out that they want to have a litter from her (it had been suggested before anyhow), and they can't have it by German DRC rules with an owner in a different country.   So we both agree to sign a piece of paper to say she goes back into our co-ownership after she whelps.

She went on to have 12 pups - I was to have the best dog pup, but when I visited he was not up to my standard sadly, so I left him there with a heavy heart.    They had the full proceeds of the litter against my wishes (no stud fee - it was their own dog.)

Now they haven't restored my joint ownership, and I have to go to a solicitor, which I really don't want to do.

So everyone, be warned.....

Jo

I think it is an interesting idea, but like Jo says v problematic.  Especially because, to know if a dog is worth breeding from, you are going to want to show it (or at least ensure impartially that it meets the breed standard) and also - more importantly for us - ensure that it can work.  I don't see how all that can happen, if the dog were placed with a host family some distance away.  I would not be able to show it and train it, based there.  If they showed and trained it (assuming they would be willing to, as many pet owners would not - or would not be any good at it), and then I came along and was in control of the breeding side of things... well that just doesn't seem fair for them.  If it was purely about genetics, then using host families might work - but when it's about each dog proving its worth during its lifetime, then I think it becomes a bit more problematic.

Think we are talking about two entirely different attitudes here. In the UK most the very best breeders would be "Hobby Breeders" who do not breed that often but are steeped in the history of their beloved breed and no way would they trust their bitch to anyone else particularly when they are in whelp. We do rely on others to own the studs and in the same way they would not consider allowing the dog to be farmed out to anyone else. We just have a different attitude, we have our dogs first and foremost to live with us to train and then show or work them and if they are successful and fit we then consider breeding, there are now very few who would consider their dogs as stock and although you may wish to continue your line that is not the first consideration, if your own bitch or dog is not what you want you will buy in from one of your own line and try again.

To us success in the show ring or working trial is important but first and foremost our dogs are pets, companions, and considered part of our breeding plans only as another part of our enjoyment of our dogs.

I am in a similar position - I'm never going to be a top breeder because I don't want to have more than 4 or 5 dogs. I will have to hope that I can breed a litter when the bitch is 2.5 years old, sell them, then breed a 2nd litter when the bitch is 5 years old and keep a bitch from that litter. Then keep fingers crossed that puppy is good quality, good health, good temperament etc and repeat the process. I will be very lucky if I keep a line going at all! So far so good though - my foundation bitch was good enough quality to win at open level, and the puppy from her 2nd litter is nearly 6 months old and looking reasonable if not outstanding, I've been told she's a step up from her mother anyway. Hopefully if she is good enough to breed from I can improve the quality another step in the next generation!

Having been in another breed for many years ( learning about the pitfalls along the way), my small breed has been organised in a much more 'planned' way.
Mine shot to the top very quickly and I have produced several winners.
I decided very quickly that I would keep 2 from every litter if they were of sufficient quality..and they have been!
One sibling stays with me and the other goes to friends and other interested exhibitors who share my views on taking the health of the breed forward.

They can show them if they like and all have been entirely signed over with endorsed registrations ( no export no breeding) all I have asked is that they health test theirs at the same time as mine and I get to breed from the sibling who ( in my opinion) has the better results.After that, they are free to do what they like ( if I approve :-) )

No contracts, other than the standard puppy contract, nothing set in stone - no one gets dissappointed or let down.
If they prove that their word is not their bond then all I have lost is respect for that person.And I have told them this up front.

I must say so far it is working, two 2.5yo sisters were scanned and I will breed from the better one and two 3yo siblings ( one male one female) just last week  both scanned clear and I will breed from the one who lives here with the other in reserve if that fails.

It helps of course that I pay for all this and give these pups away but I am working for the long term.

You can rely on your dogs but seldom on humans so never set yourself up to be let down.
If my plans work I will be pleased but I dont rely on them.

Well it sounds like, short of making arrangements with other people to care for dogs, most small-scale breeders keep only bitches and use outside stud dogs.  Is that right?

Are there others who have found other ways of managing the situation?

That was my plan but my first boy has just crept in as we loved him too much to sell him. It's sometimes hard to seperate your heart from your head.

Well it sounds like, short of making arrangements with other people to care for dogs, most small-scale breeders keep only bitches and use outside stud dogs.  Is that right?

Others may own the studs but some will be from your lines although you may wish to use a stud from different lines or a combination of your own and other compatible lines. Even if you keep your own stud the chances are he would only be used once or twice and you need new but compatible studs as you may/should not use any stud too close to your bitches except on occasions when it fits with you plans.

Thanks Nova/Jackie.  I ask because my breed is one in which more people need to be using blood from abroad; there is far too much inbreeding going on, amongst the UK population. 

If I kept a boy from my girl's litter, he would be 50% new blood.  If I imported a boy, he would be 100% new blood.  I would be greatly helping the breed by having these studs from new lines available in the UK instead of on the continent - it would get much more of that new blood about over here, than if I had a bitch who is only going to have 2 litters in her life.  I don't know if that is making much sense. 

However, I also very much want to feel that I have lines which are continuing and are under my control.  And I see that I would lose that, if I only had studs.  All I could choose would be whether they could be used or not.  I could not continue or 'grow' anything, in a long term way.  Does that make sense, I don't know if I have explained it well?

We too have a small gene pool but have had a few dogs imported - what worries me is that too many bitches are not taken to the "new" imported dog, in the first place it defeats the object if his blood line is in most of the new pups for a couple of years and the second it is not always easy to know just what is in his background health wise.

Think in the sort of situation that you and the breeders in my breed find themselves in combining as a small group is probably the best way forward as trying to produce the improvements you wish to with a few dogs is difficult if not impossible as you soon find your self with no where to go as all your stock is too closely bred.

Noora, it is a job to stop the pups, you breed here that go to their families not being neutered by 6 months old let alone them agree to allow the dog or bitch to be bred from?  the vets here are generally very anti breeding.

> If I kept a boy from my girl's litter, he would be 50% new blood.  If I imported a boy, he would be 100% new blood. 

Only trouble is if you import new blood it may or may not be used by others (and is only useful to you for one generation initially), and once it has been used your back to square one with the offspring.

Far better if you can to use a different foreign dog each time bringing in new blood with each litter, than bringing in the new blood on it's own, which is initially more useful.

Both ways are useful, but only if the gene pool can be opened up with more people becoming involved and more new blood coming in and being sensibly used.

Breeders need to look at the bigger picture when making breeding decisions,a dn think with each litter how it may impact the breed as a whole, and what other breeders are doing so as not to be doing too much of the same..

When a gene pool becomes congested everyone uses the import and your back to square one within a generation or two.

> I also very much want to feel that I have lines which are continuing and are under my control.  And I see that I would lose that, if I only had studs.  All I could choose would be whether they could be used or not. 

That is the main reason I keep bitches.  I have more control where my breeding will go.

Thanks Barbara that is v helpful.

Especially this: 

>Only trouble is if you import new blood it may or may not be used by others (and is only useful to you for one generation initially), and once it has been used your back to square one with the offspring.

That was what I was trying to say (and failing!). 

There is another breeder in my breed who is bringing in 2 males from new lines next year.  The stud we are looking at for the litter would be new lines again, not the same as these she is bringing in.  So I think, combined, this would be a lot of new stuff and v good. 

So I guess we'll keep a bitch...  And I was just looking forward to male adolescence and leg-cocking to mark and all sorts of nice things like that...!

> When a gene pool becomes congested everyone uses the import and your back to square one within a generation or two.

This is so true.  The dog is "flavour of the month" & pretty much all the next years pups have this dog on their pedigree.

I always try & plan 2-5 years ahead so will be looking at what dogs will be useful for my young pup. It isn't practical to keep 2 from a litter so makes sense to try & place another breeding prospect elsewhere, then if your bitch isn't suitable/barren/has a pyo you haven't lost your line.

>Noora - would it be possible for you to either put up, or post a link to your KC's breeding terms agreement - in English

I'm afraid it is only in Finnish... I might just type it in English one night when puppy sitting so watch this space :)

Thanks, Noora - it would be interesting to read :)