Hi

I'm wondering if anyone on here has taken a bitch to a stud dog abroad?  If so, could they give me an account of the process and how it went?  (I am familiar with the Pet Passport side of things and have done that before but if there's anything else I need to take into account....)

I also have a few questions, on various fronts.  Some of them are not specific to taking a bitch abroad but just about things I'm not familiar with...

1)  Blood tests:  I understand that I will need to have my bitch blood tested from the start of her season, to determine when we have to get to the stud dog.  I have heard different things about how often should these blood tests be?  Daily?  Every 2 days?  And is my regular vet going to be able to do this?  I am not sure if he is experienced with running bloods for in season bitches - can any vet do this, is it relatively simple, or should I find a vet with more experience?  I have been told that it's ok to wait till we get a "green light" blood test result before leaving the UK, since the eggs can survive for 2 days.  Is this right, or should we get there a bit earlier? 

At what point in this blood-testing process do we book transport?  We plan to get the channel tunnel and then drive (5 hrs drive from Calais).

2)  Paperwork:  I understand that I have to provide the KC with a 3 generation pedigree of the stud dog, and pay the KC £20 to register the stud dog.  I send that in with the litter registration form, which I got the stud dog owner to sign at the mating.  Is there anything else I have overlooked? 

The pedigree of the stud dog is the Export Pedigree from his country of origin (he does not currently live in his country of origin, but as a pup was sold to someone in another country).  The Export pedigree has the name and address of his new owner.  I believe that the KC will accept an Export Pedigree from his country of origin - I mean, that they don't insist on one which is from the KC of the country in which he currently lives?  I phoned them and they told me this was ok, but it still worries me.

3)  Docking:  The breed is one which can still be legally docked in the UK and we work our dogs.  However, I am still in 2 minds about whether to dock or not.  I have tried to find a docking vet in our area (just from the internet and from forum posts) but I haven't found one yet.  I don't think the CDB help with finding a docking vet anymore - or do they?  I looked on the BASC website but can't find anything there either.  Is there any organisation which puts people in touch with vets who are prepared to dock?  Is it just a matter of asking around other people who have bred docked litters in the area?

Anyway, at this stage, those are my questions.  I'm sure I will have lots more and as it won't happen till next summer, I plan to spend all the remaining time reading and learning. 

Thanks for your help.

when i did it it was very simple, the biggest prob i forsee you having with a summer mating is getting the crossing at short notice on the exact day you want it. we dont bother with blood tests prefering to go by our own stud dogs and experience of lkknowing when a bitch looks ready so cant help you there sorry. all we did was got stud dog owner to sign usual form and enclosed a 5 gen pedigree authenticated by the kc of dogs home country, and this was sufficient for the kc here. re docking just speak to other local breeders who dock, there are plenty of good vets left that will dock as long as your dog is worked and the pups will be worked, there shouldnt be a problem

Thanks Sam. 

When you say that you go by your own stud dogs and experience, at what point did you book travel?  Did you wait till your bitch was ready and then book asap, or did you estimate ahead a few days and book then, or what? 

Do you think we should go as soon as the season starts and, if we get there early, just have a holiday in the area and pop in every couple of days to see what happens with the stud?  Or should we try to wait longer in the UK and do blood tests?

Final question about the paperwork - when you say you gave the KC the pedigree authenticated by the KC of the dog's home country, did you just give them a photocopy, or do they want some sort of certified copy from the foreign KC?  Thanks.

hi as soon as she came in season we booked the tunnel for the following week, and then we watched her like a hawk, allowed one of our experienced studs to approach her daily from day 7 & as soon as he started to show a proper interest we altered the travel date to the next day and hi tailed it across europe. she was mated the day after we got there and again 48 hours later. the paperwork was am original certificate purchased from the kc of the country the stud dog lived in.

Great, thanks Sam that is really helpful.

I'd be interested in anyone else's experiences too!

Hi Rabid.  We sent a maiden bitch out to Hungary to be mated to a maiden dog!  We were advised to fly her out rather than drive as it was winter.  Made all enquiries re: travel and booked flights out within four days of her starting her season.  She was accompanied and was flown out as excess baggage.  Once there, the stud dog owner kindly arranged blood testing and she was mated three times.  Once the deed was done, the stud owner booked her return passage, as freight this time (much cheaper to do this from over there), and drove her to Vienna to be flown home to the UK where we met her at the airport.  She delivered her pups by C-section and we have a lovely boy from the mating.  As for paperwork, the bitch already had her passport as she had been exhibited abroard previously and the stud owner provided 5 gen pedigree etc.  No problem registering the litter with our KC.  Good luck with your girl :-)

I have done so in 2006 and am (fingers crossed) flying out on Thursday.

In October 2006 I flew to Finland which involved a flight to Helsinki, and a local flight to the Swedish border airport Kemi Tornio.

With flying you need a minimum of a weeks notice so I booked the day she came in season, guessed that flying day 12 and returning day 19 would hopefully allow for the right timing.

We went out as checked baggage (reasonably cheap) and had to return from Helsinki as Cargo as that is the only way flying into UK (extortionate).  At that time I was able to handle the Cargo booking myself, but it does appear that many airlines now require this be handled by a livestock agent (more expense).

This time I am taking a daughter of this bitch (not from the Finnish breeding), but as her older half sister was not ready for mating until days 18 - 20, I am taking no chances and have opted to take her out on day 10 and come back on day 22 to cover a wider likely mating window.

This time it is the USA and they have restrictions re maximum and minimum temperatures.  I prefer not to take chances with high temperatures so opted for the colder season.

They will not normally allow the dog to fly if any of the airport's are going to have temperatures below 45'F, or if you get a low temperature Acclimation certificate not below 20'F.

When I rang around for Cargo quotes I nearly had heart failure so hunted around for airlines that would fly as excess baggage.

In the event I have gone non stop with American Airlines Multicity option, flying Heath row to JFK, and returning JFK Brussels.  the cost for the dog is $150 each way, plus my own fare, a lot less than the £800 outward Cargo, and $1500 return Cargo, plus Healthrow Quarantine station charges quoted by Virgin.

Hubby is then coming to bring us home via the Dover Dunkirk Pets ferry route (£100 plus fuel, Bristol to Brussels and back).

So I have to pray we manage to keep above -7'C (20'F) on 21/22nd coming back, as forcasts for 9th going out seem to be OK.

> I have done so in 2006 and am (fingers crossed) flying out on Thursday.

The very best of luck and wishes for you, and I hope it works well :) Looking forward to updates too.

Can't help with the travel/mating stuff but wish you well :)

There are vets round that will dock working dogs, as others have said chat to other breeders of working dogs in you area and if you are a member of BASC I believe they hold a list of vets who will dock working dogs but you will need to call them. I believe CDB is no longer holding vet list. 

Thanks everyone for your help.

Brainless, that sounds like an incredible journey, you must be v committed to your breed to go to such lengths to bring in new blood lines like that.  I'd like to hear how it goes, maybe you can update us from abroad?

I'd like to hear any more stories, if there are any!  Just to get a sense of how different people negotiate it all.  I'm a bit reluctant to send the bitch out on her own - she will be a maiden bitch.  And I think it might be a first time for the stud too.

Brainless, it sounds like you don't do the blood tests and then travel, either, but you just estimate it too?  I am wondering if I should do that.  If I should, how early should I go out??  (I know that's like - how long is a piece of string - but worth asking anyway.)

If I should, how early should I go out??  (I know that's like - how long is a piece of string - but worth asking anyway.)

your girl is maiden so if i was you i would blood because if the boy is also you really dont want to miss and if you know your girl has ovulated and the boy carnt do it your not left wondering what if we missed and it was too late ,plus then you know the time scale she has to mate then ,good luck x

Blood testing before booking a journey is not likely to be practical if booking flights as most airlines require a minimum of a weeks notice.

On both occasions I booked my flights they day they came in season.

I estimate based on the female relatives from the earliest to mate to the latest, which is why I will be going on day 10 and not returning until day 22 .  I have had no bitches that have gone on to have puppies mated before day 13

Hi -

So, if I'm understanding you right, your general plan is that, at the first sign of a season, you identify day 10 and book a flight for that day.  Is that right?

I'm increasingly thinking we should get over there as soon as it starts and then have a holiday for a few weeks, nearby!

However, as we are going by Chunnel (or by ferry if the chunnel is full), I would hope that we would get something last minute - boats and tunnel don't need as much notice and arranging of stuff as planes, I think.  So maybe blood testing and then going would be possible....? 

Thanks.

Yes if you don't need to book tickets in advance and are driving then it's easy peasy.

I would blood test, but bear in mind that travel sometimes upsets things so allow a couple of extra days over there.

yes i see what your saying brainless ;) then maybe the OP could get the blood test done there?

No what I meant that long travel can put timing of hormone levels out of kilter. 

The blood test may say ovulation imminent, but she may not ovulate until later, or go off.

Not even considered this myself but would it not be best to allow the bitch a couple of days to rest after the journey before the first mating is attempted or an I anthropomorphising things too much

I just realised that I don't yet have the answers to my Qs in my original post about blood tests - the bits about, can my regular vet do it, does it need to be someone experienced at interpreting the results and so on and so forth. 

I'm taking another dog to see him on Monday (see post in Health forum!), so will ask him about it then.

You need a serum progesterone test, your vet will take the blood and it will need to be sent of to a lab. The result is usually back later the same day with details of progesterone level, estimated time to ovulation and re test information.
I use these for all mating and would think they will be vital to help you plan the right time to travel etc
K 

Thanks klb.  So the vet doesn't need to do anything other than draw blood?  There's no interpreting of results involved?  If so, I guess any vet can do it and I'll be ok.  Thanks.

The lab will give interpretation of results on their report to your vet, I am usually given a copy for my records. Please note reading can reported be in one of two scales = ng/l or nmol/l

To interpret results this is the chart I use ::
0-2  nmol/L           Baseline concentrations too early to estimate ovulation
3 - 6 nmol /L        Minimum 2 days before ovulation expected however result of 3 - 4 nmol/L may persist for a week or longer before increasing. Earliiest estimating breeding 4 - 6 days but could be longer (re test needed)
7 - 12 nmol/L   Minimum 1 day before ovulation. Estimated window for breeding 3 - 5 days but could be longer  ( re test recommended)
13 - 18 nmol/L   Ovulation impending or just occurred. Estimated breeding window 2 - 4 days 
19 - 31 nmol/L   Ovulation recently occurred. Estimated breeding window 1 - 3 days
32 - 64 nmol/L   Ova have matured, optimal potential for fertility.  Estimated breeding window  0 - 2 days
65 - 90 nmol/L   Ova have matured but aging, decreased potential for fertility.  Breed  at once
Above 90 nmol/L    Too late 

To convert chart to read in Ng/ml  divide reading in nmol/l by 3.18

Hope this helps :)
K

Great, thanks.  Think I have some more reading to do now...!

I will be doing this in May/June.  We are going to Sweden.  I plan to make our bookings on the day she comes in season.  We plan to book the train (we decided this would be easiest on our bitch) so that we will get there around Day 10/11 which will give her a day or two to settle before attempting breeding.  We are also travelling with one of our older girls as a companion for her so she's less stressed. 

We did some test runs in the summer during the busy season to see if it was possible to book so last minute, and we would have been able to do so in August, so we figure there won't be an issue with May/June.  That's for the Tunnel - it may be more difficult on the ferry, and possibly same with flying.

This will be my first trip to the continent driving and with dogs, so I'm very nervous, but also really excited too.  It's just hoping that she comes in when she's supposed to or else hubby's tentatively book dates off work are for naught and I'll have to travel alone (which I really don't want to do).

Hi Wendy J - Have you decided not to do bloods then, just to go for Day 10/11?

> It's just hoping that she comes in when she's supposed to

I'd scrap the idea of them doing anything to suit ;)

When I went to Finland with Lexi she came in 3 weeks early.

This time daughter Inka had gone 7 months between previous two seasons so expected her to come in at the end of December, did she? no a month sooner 6 months to the day after start of last season.

I have also had bitches two months late in season when I have planned to mate them, so you will need to plan a month before and two months after the date you think.

> This will be my first trip to the continent driving and with dogs, so I'm very nervous, but also really excited too.  It's just hoping that she comes in when she's supposed to or else hubby's tentatively book dates off work are for naught and I'll have to travel alone (which I really don't want to do).

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well for what its worth, from my own experience of a lot of travel in europe with dogs....I wouldnt attempt it alone....even if you have to get a friend to come along and sit in the passenger seat. Driving on "the wrong side" makes concentrating a 100 times harder and driving more tiring. then theres the question of leaing unattended dogs while you wash/pee/eat etc.....I always go with someone, and for a drive as far as sweden wouldnt contemplate it alone.....and I say that as someone who happily travels world wide alone without my dogs, on commissions etc, so Im not a wimp! LOL

> Hi Wendy J - Have you decided not to do bloods then, just to go for Day 10/11?

I don't want to stress her.  The breed is 'generally' ready around day 12 or later.  I figure if I get there for day 10/11 then we should be safe, and can stay later if need be.  I don't see any reason for getting there much earlier with my breed.  If we're unsure we can use the stud owner's vet for progesterone testing once we're there.

> I'd scrap the idea of them doing anything to suit

Oh I'm totally expecting her to mess us about - but we have to at least 'pencil in' a block of dates or chances are we won't get any at all.  Fingers crossed she cooperates, but if she doesn't we'll figure it out :)

> well for what its worth, from my own experience of a lot of travel in europe with dogs....I wouldnt attempt it alone....even if you have to get a friend to come along and sit in the passenger seat.

Ideally I would be hoping I could get someone to join me if hubby can't.  I'm actually Canadian (been here 15+ years).  I'm used to driving on the other side of the road, but only while on the other side of the car.  Driving on the right side of the road on the right side of the car is totally going to mess with my head, which is why I am seriously hoping she does come in during the 4 week block hubby has booked.  If not, as I said, we'll figure it out.

(takes deep breaths and promises all kinds of special goodies for a girl who does what she's supposed to...)

May I ask why people choose this method over imported semen?

Perhaps the need for KC permission for maiden bitches? Or success rate?

I don't think you need KC permission for AI with maiden bitches (do you?).

For us, it would be an unnecessary medical procedure.  I think with a maiden bitch especially, there is something missing, psychologically, if a dog suddenly discovers its stomach starts to grow with pups but hasn't had the physical experience of mating.  I just think that there must be hormonal things happening as a result of the physical experience of mating, and even if the dog doesn't "know" (factually, cognitively) that mating = puppies, I do think there is some felt, physical unnameable connection.  So I think a mating with a maiden especially is more "natural".  Plus the need to know that she is physically capable of it, naturally. 

If she'd already had a litter naturally, and had had that connection and the physical experience of mating, then I'd have no probs with AI, I think.

All of that is totally unscientific and just my gut instinct.  I'm sure there are people who use AI on maidens with no probs.

Also - I think I'd have to be very sure that my vet was experienced with AI, and I'm not.  I'd also need to be sure that the stud dog owner's vet was experienced taking, storing and transporting semen - and I'm not.  All in all, too much complicated scientific stuff to worry about and I'd rather just let the dogs get it on!

For us we looked into AI, and by the time you add up the cost of collection, importing, DEFRA red tape, storing, implantation etc the cost was pretty much the same as going over ourselves.  Then there's the fact that AI is less successful than natural (though stuff happens - or doesn't - either way).  We figured if we're going to spend that kind of ££ then if it doesn't work we'd like to have something to show for it - so decided to make a holiday of it.

You don't need permission now for maiden bitches as long as the dog is proven.  But an bitch conceived by AI can't have a first litter by AI.

> Perhaps the need for KC permission for maiden bitches? Or success rate?

Poor success rate, lack of choice of Repro specialists, Red tape getting it (for Fresh the donor dog has to be Pet passported, for Frozen it has to be Quarantined before being imported), and storing it, means it is likely to be more expensive with less chance of success.

Update:

Writing this from Long Island where we had 3 inches of snow overnight and temperatures are below 20'F tonight, so glad I managed to get here.  Forcast for the 21st is OK at the moment.

Anyway the important stuff, got the first mating yesterday after stud owner had spent 1.5hours with the pair, with my bitch bossing and domineering the dog, jumping all over him but growling if he got serious.

He decided to call it a day as it was only day 14, but then half hour later said 'faint heart never won fair lady' so they went out again and this time she kept offering her rear but jumping away (maiden bitch) so he stopped her doing this next time the dog tried and they got a mating and tie. 

Not happy in the tie (neither were her mother or grandmother), told everyone about it throughout, so fortuantely it wasn't a long one ;)

So intend to reapeat the procedure for as long as she will accept the dog, have booked the vet for 'fit to fly' certification and tick and tapes for the morning of 21st, as we won't be getting the Ferry for home from Dunkirk until 6pm on 22nd.

So everyone keep fingers crossed for JFK on 21st and Brussels on 22nd to ahve temperatures above -7'C/20'F so we can get home, and then pray for us to get a litter.

Fingers Crossed here for you Barbara.
Have a safe journey home.
Regards
Karen.

Wow, and there was me thinking a trip 150 miles North for a mating might be problematical if it snows in Jan/Feb!! Hope everything goes well for you and wish you a safe journey home.

good luck, hope it all goes well for you! I usually try to aim for family visits to NY in the winter (end of January) but harder winters here over successive years have made me wonder if we're not gambling too much with the weather. Wish we were there too! I miss the snow and the city is beautiful at this time of year--assuming you get a chance to get out while you're there! 

Great to hear an update and so glad you've had one mating already... sounds like all is going to plan at the moment....

Great to hear you have got your mating and hope all goes to plan with return journey. Must admire your dedication surely the puppy gods will smile on you :)

K  

Thanks for the update, I've been wondering how you were getting on :)

looks like all is going to plan :) fingers crossed you both get home on time and the snow dont hold you up!...we are going to get more here too over the next few days xx

Lovely to hear an update, I hope you're enjoing your time over there (and your girl as well of course...hurr hurr!). They do forecast more snow here for the weekend, not in the Bristol area but the south coast might get a bit so please be careful driving back from the ferry.

Good Luck & have a safe journey home for Christmas. Best wishes.

Barbara, I am so pleased that you have had the first tie.  Good luck for several more, and at least a couple of top quality girls for you to choose from.  :-)

And a couple of nice boys pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeese - would be lovely to have a different line of stud dog available if all turns out well.

You must be so pleased Barbara that things are going to plan, 'tis a hell of a way to go to find she simple would not give him the time of day so step one has passed with a gold star here's to future liaison and hope you get home in a calm gap in the weather.

Great to hear all is going well..have our fingers and paws crossed here for you!!

> 'tis a hell of a way to go to find she simple would not give him the time of day

Just for those who think that you can safely leave a pair to get on with it, especially with a maiden bitch.

Today (15th) my girl was flirting outrageously, and standing firm.

Stud dog owner wanted me out of the way so I watched from landing window in the house.

As soon as I saw the stair climbing action of the dog (which indicates he is where he needs to be, I quickly hurried out to lend my support if needed.

Inka was rolling over onto her back, kicking the dog forcibly with all four legs while the stud owner was trying to right her (The stud stood calmly bless, though I suppose he could do little but).

I had to quickly straddle her holding her right way up from undeneath with her back pressed into my chest,a dn my not inconsiderable rear in the stud owners face, where he held onto the head and front!!

This is how injury can occur even with the most willing bitch, some just can't bear the restriction of the tie and a strong compact bodied bitch can roll and fight to get away.

Thankfully it wasn't an overly long tie!

Needless to say I will be mating her for as long as she is happy to stand, but ernestly hope she gets better in the ties.

Thanks for the update Barbara...

Can I ask, how do you know when a bitch genuinely isn't ready or has gone over, and when she is just disliking the mating process and playing around and needs a firm hand?  Is this the role of Premate tests?

Thanks!

It does help to ahve an experinced male who has learnt to mate bitches when they are truly ready.  My mentor was of the opinion that the males learnt this by being presented with bitches early, being told off and learning to bide their tiem, checkign progress with each introduction.  Often such males will not mate the bitch until the optimum time, even if she is willing and chasing him a day ior two earlier.

I had an awkward bitch, Inka's grandmother, who wanted to run the show and be the 'stud' and did premate on her next season after failing to get her mated as I wasn't prepared to force an unwilling unready bitch.

Fortunately my Inka is all too willing to stand, just hates the tie.  She too was mounting and chasing the dog, and made it quite clear she wanted to be in 'charge'.

Got a brief slip mating this morning (we are 5 hours behind UK), and got the briefest slip mating and then she moved, he was half hearted and more inclined to play than get serious after that, so he may well have spent himself, so we will try again this afternoon.

We are on day 17, so this may be it, with two matings on day 14 and 16 is plenty, but with this distance we want to be sure she has gone over before stopping.

my bitch was the same this time she stud lovley for him and then run and wanted to play or jump on the stud dog ,she hated the tie hubby had to hold her up she tried to sit roll and lie down but we did get 3 ties and pups due so fingers and paws crossed for your girl xx

Good luck!  Let us know when you are on your way back..

Well all looks set for going home, Weather fiorcasts show temperatures that will allow us to fly.

Have my own meds and have an early morning appointment for tick and tapes on the day we fly out to Brussels (evening) as we don't catch ferry home until evening of the next day.

We have had 3 good matings on 14th, 16th, and 18th days, and a slip on day 17, so I think she is pretty much covered (fit male not quite four years old with his last litter only just 5 months old) and the rest is down to her and a good bit of luck.