There is a litter due from my large breed boy and no matter how much advice I try to give the bitches owner she just isn't listening. I know that I have absolutely no rights to the litter but I always get excited when his pups are due and am on call 24/7 for advice and will attend the whelping if need be so that the pups arrive safely. When my boy is mated I give the bitch's owners a fact sheet of the main points to expect during pregnancy and whelping and also lend them one of my copies of The Book of the Bitch.

The girl that is due is a maiden and as of today she is 9wks and 6 days from the first mating and 9 weeks and 4 days from the second. I have phoned the owners every day from 8 weeks and 4 days and reassured them that it doesn't matter what time it is they can ring me and if they want me to go down and help them then I will as they haven't had a litter before. They only live 15 mins away. The other point I have stressed is that every girl who has produced pups from my boy have commented how stocky they are at birth. One of my own bitches last year had problems resulting in a c-section and we lost a pup and very nearly lost my girl and that was at 9 weeks and 3 days after being advised by my vet to wait until 9 weeks and 4 days to C-section. I will now stick to my insticts and not the vets.

I advised the owner a few days ago that if nothing happened to take her to the vets yesterday, explain what I had said and demand a section but she hasn't. This girl will be 10 weeks tommorrow and if she doesn't take her tommorrow and something happens over the weekend it is a much longer drive (probably somewhere between 45mins and over an hr in this snow, and that's if they are actually able to get there in this weather) to the surgery that covers the out of hrs for her surgery.

Reading this back it sounds like I am an interfering old buzzard but the phonecall have only been short and encouraging rather than nagging but now I just feel like screaming at her.

Reading this back it sounds like I am an interfering old buzzard

Not at all - but it does reinforce why I endorse all my puppies "progeny not to be registered" and why I won't encourage novices to breed without any experience. :(

I'd like to say let her make her mistakes but its the bitch and pups that will suffer.  I would keep trying her and stress she' could lose the litter if the dog is this late.  Hopefully she took late so might be on time.  Did she blood test for ovulation?

Hope things work out, I wouldn't onject to advice when whelping, Luckily i do get it.  I don't understand why she's reluctant, does she owe the stud fee?

Good luck and hope she comes to you if trouble arises.  fingers crossed it doesn't.

Sometimes people just will NOT listen, no matter what :(  

I can understand how frustrating it is for you, but support can only be given if the person needing support is willing to accept it :(   Did these people lead you to believe that they would accept your help and support gladly?  - as a mentor?

It sounds like these people (or rather their bitch) will just have to take the consequences of their lack of action :(  and it could prove very expensive.

Are you absolutely sure that the bitch is actually pregnant?

My Bro had a Weim bitch who went over dates and the vet advised waiting up to a week as the bitch seemed fine   Bro wasn't happy and demanded an x-ray to confirm one large pup, a section was needed and the singleton pup was lost - it was too big to be born naturally and died just after birth.  They were lucky to keep the bitch alive and she had an emergency spey as her womb was in a very bad state and they couldn't stop bleeding.

Result, £2000 out of pocket, no pup and a speyed bitch :(       perhaps if they understand how badly wrong it could go they'd act differently?

I totally understand how unhappy this is making you, but if they won't listen then there's little you can do.  

Westcoast,
What experience do you expect novices to have?       Everyone has to start as a novice (as in first whelping of their own bitch), but if they have a mentor who is willing to attend surely that's as good as it gets?     I would have willingly attended a whelping, but no-one I know would have had a novice at their bitches whelping, I did however have a mentor living close by and on call at all times.

Westcoast,
What experience do you expect novices to have?
I bought my first bitch as a pet.  When I spoke to her breeder and said that I was considering having a litter, she said that she would help me IF I went through her next litter with her.  I went to the mating, visited twice in the last week, and turned out of bed at 1am when she started panting.  I watched the whelping and then visited once a week (she insisted on 7am on the 7th week to see what a mess sweet puppies are in first thing!) to watch the different arrangements and progress of the litter.  I sat in while she spoke to prospective owners.
None of this was easy to arrange as I was over an hour away and my daughter was about 6 years old!  She also arranged for me to watch 2 more whelpings with 2 other breeders in the next 12 months before I mated my bitch.  Although I had been a veterinary nurse and knew what to do with new whelps after ceasarians, I'd not seen a natural birth.
When my first litter was due my bitch's breeder was at the end of the phone for 4 hours - yes I had a big phone bill, but it was very reassuring.  And she would have been on my doorstep in just over an hour if I'd needed her.
I have done a similar thing to 2 other novices in 30 years, both who I'd got to know as newbies at shows.
I had sold one bitch many years ago as a family pet and the owner, with no experience at all, rang and said that she wanted to mate her. I asked her to come and talk about it but she said that she didn't have time for that!  She wrote to me some months later to say that the bitch had developed an infection during her pregnancy but she hadn't noticed and so had died, full of pups, a week before she was due to whelp!  I wouldn't have subjected my bitch to that for the world and have always emphasised from then on that a pet bitch should always remain a pet bitch! :(

Sleepwhatsleep.......I wish all breeders were like you I don't think you are nagging just experienced.  The 1st time a bred my girl the breeder was fantastic just like you and indeed very patient with me calling her all the time.  My bitch went 4 days over from 1st mating and she kept me calm came and visited to see if the bitch was stressed as the vet kept saying just wait.  Luckily she went on to have a litter of 11,10 healthy 1 still born No8.  But she was on call and brill constantly.  I bred my bitch again begining of oct this year (with a different breeder as the stud dog was excellent and different lines) the breeder hasn'y contact me once or returned my calls...infact i called my original breeder for advise and she was again only to happy, I also sent a nasty letter yesterday to the breeder. I know you pay the stud fee for use of the dog but when they know you are a novice and concerned you would expect a bit of help.  So well done keep on at her and hopefully it will end happily :)

Well I've just rung her and the litter arrived yesterday!!!! She didn't even ring or text to say her bitch had started so that I could be on standby and apparently the first pup was enormous and the subsequent ones were breech. I have breathed a huge sigh of relief that mum and pups are doing ok although the owners fell asleep afterwards and mum squashed one. Don't get me wrong I know this can happen to anyone but it is so common in my breed that I stressed until I was blue in the face that you have to be prepared for no sleep in the first fews days!!!  But, that aside, I am so happy that mum is ok as all I can think is that they got very lucky. If I could find the "shaking head" smiley I would use it.

Orangedog

When you say breeder - do you mean the breeder of your bitch or the owner of the stud dog? 

Whilst you would hope the stud dog owner is interested I don't think that many would provide the sort of mentoring that can be expected of your original breeder.  There will be some stud owners that have are very experienced in the male side of things but have zero experience of whelping.  Additionally they may not consider you a novice if you've already had one litter.

Why did you send a nasty letter?  Was that to the stud dog owner?

> Whilst you would hope the stud dog owner is interested I don't think that many would provide the sort of mentoring that can be expected of your original breeder. 

I have have had the stud owner help me and let me ask alsorts.  They must be a rare breed lol.  They do exhist somewhere.

Hi Dogs a Babe i meant the stud dogs owner and although i agree with you 100% in them being experienced in the matng side but not the whelping, She is ac acredited breeder with the KC and has been for many years and totally sold it to me she would be at the end of the phone any problems etc.  I also made it very clear i'd only bred once before and how nervous and inexperienced i was. She even offered to take my bitch near the time to deal with the birth for me whih i didnt want my girl upset and that is when the reassurance of only 45mins away or a phone call.  As for the letter it was to the stud dog owner.

sleepwhatsleep....Congratulations glad its all worked out ok. :)

Reikiangel ive not ignored your reply, as you say they do exist just wish there was more of them and what does NBSP mean (i'm probably being really thick) lol

Westcoast,
That sounds very much like what I was looking for, but couldn't find a breeder who would allow someone to be present at a whelping or with the care of pups after :(  you must have had a very dedicated breeder to want you involved to that extent.

Two mentors less than ten minutes away if I needed them tho and both available by phone at all times - and they were very patient with me and all my questions too.

So glad the bitch had the pups OK.   Can't understand them falling asleep after, I was so 'wired' I couldn't sleep for days, and even then only cat naps by the whelping box.

I would just like to add to this conversation, that with my girl's first litter, the stud owner (also Accredited Breeder) was so helpful and held my hand right through, I know I could have done it without her, but her help and advice was invaluable (even if she is a bit bossy!). It was my first time too and I learned so much during that time!!

This year, we had my girl's 2nd and last litter, using a top stud in our breed (no, we didn't use him because he's "flavour of the month", I took advice from my girl's sire's owner who suggested him & he has been used on her lines successfully before). The stud's owner, who is high up within the breed, was helpful if asked for advice, but not once did she telephone me and despite saying she would come and help assess the litter, the visit never came, which was a shame. Yes, there were valid reasons why not, but some have said (rightly or wrongly) that if I was better known there is no doubt we would have had a visit!! We were thrilled with the litter, so I have no regrets in using this boy.

Some have help from their bitch's breeder, well no matter how many times I asked for advice from mine, she has never really helped me,  she no longer shows, but still breeds, and I even put puppy buyers her way as she had an available pup from my girl's mother's last litter. I was keen to ask her if she would like to come and help me assess the litter, as we were keeping a bitch pup, and left a message on her phone for her to call me back (without saying what I wanted her for) and guess what - no phone call back!! I will not be contacting her again, as she has had so many chances to help and has obviously no interest!! So sad for me...

I had a friend help me with the whelping this time, she was a rock & has whelped lots of litters before. Between us, we made what is a stressful time really manageable - two people to make decisions really lessened the stress! The whelping was amazing - really, quick, clean and all done in 2 hours. I learned so much from her, which will stand me in good stead for the future! Even if something had gone wrong, having her there would have helped in making decisions!!

So any of you out there, who are willing to help someone like myself who is new to breeding, please don't stop offering the advice, I know some people either think they already know it all or just don't want to ask for help - there's no helping some people! For the rest of us, we will gratefully accept any help or advice which is given!!

That sounds very much like what I was looking for, but couldn't find a breeder who would allow someone to be present at a whelping or with the care of pups after :-(  you must have had a very dedicated breeder to want you involved to that extent.

Some in the breed wouldn't agree ;) but to me she was very generous with her time and sharing her knowledge.  I think that she realised that I was serious and committed to the breed.  And to be honest, I wouldn't have done it without this learning because as an ex veterinary nurse, I'd seen what can go wrong! :(

In turn I'm always happy to help those who are serious to learn about the breed but I've no time for those who simply want to breed without putting in any effort.............. :(

Oh well, at least mum and most of the puppies are ok, and hopefully they will take the warning about watching closely more seriously now having lost one.