please any one with advice
if you use a stud dog and the bitch has 1 puppy do you reduce the stud fee

I think a lot of stud dog owners would offer a free mating next time :)

It depends on the terms agreed at the time but remember that you've paid for the service not the result. The number of pups produced depends on the bitch not the dog.

Wouldn't it not have something to do with the normal litter size too? Say they normally have 6-8 then yes I think a reduced fee or another alternative which both parties are happy with would be sufficient. Did you not cover this in your contract/ or discussed before your boy was used?(Assuming we are talking you have the dog?)
From reading replies and responses from people on similar topics on here before it does seem to vary among breeds as to what is the norm.
Is there anyone in your breed that you could ask?

its down to the bitch has to how many pups she has ,so long as he is in good health ,i dont offer free mateing or reduced price with my boy ,he has sired a litter of 3 and a litter of 12 and 1 we dont know the amount of yet so you see its down to the bitch.

No they don't have to, they've done their bit.  Though have to say that I've had some kind stud dog owners in my breed although I know not all would be the same that have allowed me a reduced price due to my girl only having two in both her litters.

I wouldn't charge a full stud fee if there was just one puppy.

I would find a litter of one puppy perfectly normal in both of my toy breeds.  The owner of the bitch is paying for a successful mating, not a set number of puppies.

So when is the stud fee normally payable, when the pups are born, or at the time of mating?

If someone came to me with a bitch they wanted mating, I certainly would expect payment on a tie.  If someone cannot afford the stud fee at the time of mating, they certainly can't afford to have a litter.

I am quite happy to wait for a stud fee. It's usually people I know who have used my boys.

Perhaps it makes a difference in the breed and with the size of the stud fee. With a toy breed, I am assuming that the stud fee would be significantly lower than a breed which usually produces larger litters? Don't know, just guessing. The standard stud fee for my breed is about the price of a well marked puppy, so around £1000 ish.

JeanSW think it depends on the breed.  I've used a champion Pomeranian and only paid £250 the Spanish are £1,000.00.  Many stud dog owners allow payment for the Spanish once you've had the pups (from people they know well) but of course you have to pay so much to them at time of mating.

I've had two litters of two with one of my girls and kept a pup from each one so I've only had the money to pay for the stud fee in the end.  Yep I'm mad :)

i wouldn't reduce the price on a stud fee when my boy has been used as it is for his service which has been completed. I also expect the fee to be paid at the time of mating...The same as I have always paid for a stud fee at time of mating when using other dogs

We paid at the time of mating for our girl and she had 3 bitch pups. The number of pups is always down to the bitch.

In our contracts, a litter is one or more live puppies so a stud fee would be paid. A litter of stillborn pups is not a litter as such so a free mating would be offered in that case but as its the bitch that decides the pups numbers, one or more would constitute a litter, however small.

i too normally charge the stud fee at the time of mating, but if the bitch  does'nt take i do offer a repeat mating ( i have actually  provided 2 free matings in the past )

i think its daft that people expect a reduced fee for singleton pups, you are paying for his sperm so if you get a puppy job done, maybe stud dog owners should start getting sperm checks before each mating can add it on to stud fee then its clear then where the problem may lie, people always want something for nothing and its always the dogs fault :(

I think it rather does depend on whether the stud fee is significant.  With the costs of health testing and pregnancy then only one pup where the stud fee is the price of a puppy (often £500 - £1000, depending on breed) the poor bitch owner is severely out of pocket and the stud dog owner quids in.

I have had a £50 reduction (not expected) on a stud fee when only 3 pups were reared, as roughly in our breed it takes three pups just to cover basic costs, (not any out fo horus vets fees sections etc) roughly speaking one pup for stud fee, one pup for health tests and travel, and one for rearing, reg fees etc.

It is also usual for stud dog owners to collect the fee after the litter is born (but then we mostly know each other well).

yes but its swings and round abouts, as if you have 4 puppies and the fee is say price of one puppy then your not really out of pocket, also its your choice when you embark on litter to maybe only get 1, the few times people have used my boy they have paid when pups are born i took him to them so they wernt really out of pocket there and one of the trips was a 300 mile round one. I have also bred and i know my breed its all very straight forward so never a huge outlay apart from unexpected problems. I suppose the point is you really should both come to a set understanding on what both parties expect to get but i am still of the opinion you pay for a service and if you get it you should be satisfied with the outcome after all if i had a bitch and she had double the litter size than expected i sure as hell wouldnt expect to pay extra :)

> i think its daft that people expect a reduced fee for singleton pups,

Why is it daft?    In some cases, the bitches owner has travelled many hours to mate to a particular dog, then to have one pup that could be mismarked or have a fault, then they have to pay a stud fee on top of that.  Usually singleton pups have to be born by Caesarian too.  I think it's only common courtesy of the stud dog owner to offer a free mating, after all it's your dog that's doing the mating, not you!  To him, it's nature.

I'm glad to say that the LM owners I know who have stud dogs wouldn't dream of taking a stud fee for a singleton pup. 

i agree Boody ,i had a litter with my girl 8m ago now and only had 3 it was down to me to breed her and its up to me to pay for what ever the pups/mum need, i was way out of pocket with them but my choice and wouldnt even think of paying less for stud fee ,i have a boy thats been used and if no pups were born then free use next time but even 1 pup born alive is still a pup its the risk we take when breeding.
xx

It is YOUR choice to get your bitch in whelp you are paying for a service, yes it would be very nice of the stud dog owner to offer a second mating but they are not obliged to and no they are not getting free money, when i have had a bitch here ive had to go to considerable lengths to accomodate her, i. e sending my other male dog to my mothers, housing said bitch for 2 weeks and doing a 300 mile trip all for the grand old sum of 250 pound.

All I can say is I'm glad I know people who have ethics.

Some people on this board are constantly having litters so no doubt another bitch will make up for the shortfall from a litter of 3 another bitch has.

you are just making assumptions now on peole which frankly you have no right too.

after all it's your dog that's doing the mating, not you!  To him, it's nature.

yes it is christine but their not in the wild we choose which boy we want to use and pay for that servise ,its down to the bitch has to the number ,what if the same boy is used again and only 1 pup would you want another free mating ,or if you deside to use a different stud and you still only got 1 surley thats down to your girl not the stud! xx

"Some people on this board are constantly having litters so no doubt another bitch will make up for the shortfall from a litter of 3 another bitch has"

i take it you meen me??? am the only 1 talking about 3 pups here!!! get off your high horse ,i dont constantly have litters!! i didnt get a pup from that litter, not that its got anything to do with you! and thats why im breeding her sister ................

ive read how many litters youve had and 13 in most of them LOL

> when i have had a bitch here ive had to go to considerable lengths to accomodate her, i. e sending my other male dog to my mothers, housing said bitch for 2 weeks and doing a 300 mile trip all for the grand old sum of 250 pound.

but that is what I am talking about, with a low stud fee that's fine,b ut to expect someone to say pay £1000 and only have one puppy, with full costs for health tests vet, likely C section, would be a little cold hearted.

As many stud owners are breeders too they know how much it costs, and would know if a single pup or only two pups would put the breeder to serious financial loss then they would offer a reduction.

In breeds where stud fees are low then the stud fee is little more as you say recompense for your time (*possible days off work) and trouble.

This is why when using a dog at stud both parties need to be sure of what is being offered, and terms for various evantualities.

stud free isnt alot of money in our breed ,half the price of a pup ,i can see why there could be a reduction for paying around £1000 thats a lot of money!!

I'm in agreement with you, like i say both parties need to be clear on what they expect for me it was not about the fee it was about the puppies as i would of had second pick if there was enough bitches to chose from, as it happened they were all boys and already having 2 couldnt have another. my point was though as far as stud dogs go a service is a service and they are not obliged to offer a second anything even though most of us naturaly would.

As for this what if its mismarked or not up to standard malarky that is also a risk you take, stud dog owners cant be held responsible for every think that could not possibly go your way with a litter, my very first home bred boy came from a excellent mating , patella luxation free parents(which is the oner major issue with our breed), at 4 months old it became obvious he had got it , i did not go back to the stud dog owner complaining about this its just the way things can go, incidently he is easily the most beautiful boy ive had, which makes it even more of a bitter pill to swallow.

Technically a stud fee is purely for the services of the dog. It's to be hoped that puppies result, but there are very many reasons why this might not happen as planned.

If the bitch becomes pregnant then the dog is fertile; if she only has one puppy then possibly she has fertility problems, and that's not the fault of the dog or the dog owner. If that single puppy is mismarked etc, that's bad luck. If that single puppy turned out to be the greatest dog ever in the breed would the breeder then go back and pay extra?

> ive read how many litters youve had and 13 in most of them LOL

Yes....but there's a huge difference in us both.  I've had my breed since 1987 and bred 3 litters from which there has been a Show Champion bitch in each litter.  

thats great! well done! :) youve done very well to get 1 bitch out of 13 in a litter to show champion ,very pleased for you :) xx

Please can we keep this on topic and any personal comments kept away from the thread thanks.

My terms are £50 up front for expenses and then the remaining stud fee when 3 or more puppies are born and live for 7 days. If less than 3 I don't expect a fee.

As I have a numerically small breed and we all know each other, that probably makes a difference with my terms. 

> Perhaps it makes a difference in the breed and with the size of the stud fee. With a toy breed, I am assuming that the stud fee would be significantly lower than a breed which usually produces larger litters? Don't know, just guessing. The standard stud fee for my breed is about the price of a well marked puppy, so around £1000 ish.

Totally right ridgielover.  My stud fee for my boy is £200 and pups vary, £800 - £1,000 so yes, wide difference.  Last two litters my boy sired was 3 in both bitches, and owners more than satisfied.  I have actually paid a little more than the average for a stud fee myself, but never the price of a pup.

I did have one visiting bitch, and, in fairness, my boy did the job.  However, she gave birth to one dead pup, and, although it is by no means compulsory, I have offered a free return, knowing the heartache of the breed.

Quite, after all both the breeder and stud dog owner should be aiming for the same thing, producing quality puppies that area credit to their lines, and will help maintain or further the quality in the breed as a whole, as well as allow us to share the joy of owning our chosen breed with others. 

Some stud dog owners charge a stud fee plus x amount per live pup, others charge a one off stud fee, (which is higher), those that charge the latter would, I expect offer free mating next time.

White lilly, have you had ANY champions from the litters you have bred?

What has having champions got anything to do with this thread??? I know lots of people who get 2 tickets and many rcc's without ever getting that last cc for one reason or another.

I have already politely asked people to keep this thread on topic and am doing so again for the final time. The subject of this thread has absolutely nothing to do with the number of champions anyone may or may not have produced - don't know why these comments are continuing but they need to stop or the thread will be closed.

We went to a lovely and well respected couple when we used a stud dog, they have been in our breed for many years and have a good reputation for being fair and their contract goes as such...

Stud fee is about the price of a pup (£800), we pay half at time of mating then the other half when the litter was born, if only 1 pup born or only 1 survives only half the fee is payable if more full amount, if bitch missses free return, kenneling for bitch next time optional.

But our breed is notorious for being hard to rear and there are a lot of costs for the bitch owner, I think this contract was fair and was very happy with it. When we come to look for a stud again and the contract stated we had to pay the full amount between (£800- £1000) with only 1 pup produced I wouldnt use the boys. 

But as others have said it is very much breed specific as the fee's vary from breed to breed if I only paid say £200/ £300 I wouldnt expect a discount for the litter as its a small amount so the poster needs to see what the norm in his or her breed

In one of my breeds the most common way of paying stud fees now seems to be to pay a non-refundable handling fee (typically £100-150) and then when puppies are born you pay a price per live puppy surviving 48hrs (£75-100 per pup) - typical litter size would be 6-8. This seems to me to be a fairer way for both the Stud owner and bitch owner and if only a small/singleton litter nobody loses out.

Frankly, to demand a fee per live puppy surviving 48 hours is outrageous. We are all aware of the compications that can arise in a litter, many of which are manifest at a much later stage post whelping.  Sadly, many unscrupulous people reading this thread will conclude that advertising their dog at stud will earn them a tidy sum, hence the mushrooming of 'stud your dog 'sites  and other such misuse of terminology.
My approach is to charge a set fee on the safe delivery of a healthy litter. Normally the fee is payable at the time of registration. In the case of a novice breeder ( and we all have to start somewhere) I make myself available 24/7 for support and offer to interview prospective puppy purchasers if the 'breeder' feels she/he is not able to explain health issues etc. I must say, however, for the first  time ever I feel like asking for a 'handling 'fee having been snowed in  this week with a bitch brought to my dog before she was ready and who has proved impossible to mate ( and I've tried every trick in the book ) She has destroyed a dog bed, eaten a cashmere sweater and caused a serious fight between my girls . Call me a fool if you like !

In reply to Pedlee: As both a dog and a bitch owner, this does feel fair to me as well and is something I have thought about but not introduced.

> Frankly, to demand a fee per live puppy surviving 48 hours is outrageous. We are all aware of the compications that can arise in a litter, many of which are manifest at a much later stage post whelping.

But surely it would be no different to paying an £800 (not uncommon in my breed) stud fee up front, at time of mating, and then losing the whole/or some of the litter at birth or shortly afterwards. The stud owner would be well in pocket but the bitch owner will have lost out. Buy doing it the "handling fee" way it seems to me to be fairer to both sides.

> My approach is to charge a set fee on the safe delivery of a healthy litter. Normally the fee is payable at the time of registration.

Maybe it would be fairer to pay a fee per puppy at this stage?

It seems to me there are a 101 ways of collecting/paying a stud fee, and if you aren't happy with one way you don't use that dog.

not to any1 just my thoughts :)

i think like alot of things with breeding theres no set rules and alot have their own way of doing things even within same breeds no matter what we think about it! and like pedlee has said if your not happy with the way the dog owner does things dont use that dog.xx

Handling fee and so much per pup is very common practise in other countries.

Some countries Kennel Clubs even have standard stud contracts with you choosing which payment system to use, single fee, or small fee plus so much per pup.

When I used  a dog in Finland the lady told me that usually she charged EUR100 at time of mating plus EUR100 per puppy.

I told her that here it was usually price of a pup, and I was charging £600 for that litter, so would prefer to give the the £600 as she would be going to a lot of trouble putting us up for over a week, so deserved more than a EUR100 if we didn't get a litter.

The stud owner I am using in US charges price of a puppy, but does not want paying unless there is a litter.  That is extremely kind seeing as she will be looking after us for 12 days!  Of course I will feel honour bound to pay even if we fail to get a litter.

Just re read my post of last night . What I meant to say was that the fee is payable on a good size litter ( 5 puppies or more) which survive the critical neonatal stage (>14 days) and I would expect the fee to be paid at the time of registration. My fee is somewhat less than the price of a puppy in my breed.

Troublesome bitch has departed now that the roads are clear . Nope, we never got a mating and I've suggested an alternative stud dog next time around.

As regards a handling fee, they were so disappointed I didn't have the heart to charge one.