Hi , would appreciate some honest input and opinions on this please. A  gsd bitch that i imported from Germany has come back with a higher than average hipscore 14:13 total 27 , elbows 0:0 , now my dilemma is this , she is perfect in every other way , fab example of her breed , doing fabulously well in obedience etc. She comes from a VERY long line of low scoring dogs , in her 5 gen ped every dog has an A Stamp , she had prelims done which were graded as excellent too. Up until now i would have just shelved any ideas of breeding from any stock with higher scores but this girl is just so special , so would you put her to a known hip improver OR accept that its just not meant to be and not breed from her OR take the view that there is more to a dog than just hips and breed from her (knowing that all scores behind her are great).

Interested in peoples opinions pls
Lucy

What is your breed average?

Oops sorry , its 19

UK BMS currently is 19

TBH, with such a  vast amount of shepherds with below average hipscores compared to hers, i would not breed from her.

It's funny that -my import (other breed) who also only have As in his entire pedigree came back as 14, where the breed average is 9. Makes you wonder if they are more lenient when scoring abroad or if it's just flukes.

There definitely is more to a dog than just hips/elbows but it needs to be taken into careful consideration.

Do you know if all her siblings are A stamp? 

It also might deter potential puppy owners.

I agree there is more to a dog than just its score but 8 points are a few to many for me personally, it also depends on the gene pool some very rare breeds a few points over becomes outweighed by adding to the breed however as GSD's has many good scoring dogs and as your clubs have been fighting for many years to score dogs and are striving at the moment to 'improve' the breed id not breed form her.

I am not saying to quote me on it but in another breed (that I own) I know someone who gets their dogs scored in Germany because they seem give a wider range of scores the highest they can - if that makes sense.  They do not score their dogs using the BVA scheme anymore because when they did the scores came back extremely high.

If it was me I would personally not breed from a dog with a higher hip score...it makes you wonder what the dogs in her pedigree would score if they were done in the UK.

No, if she was mine I would not breed from her. As others have said there are a lot of very low scored dogs being bred from. It's dissapointing but you can still do lots of things with her and enjoy her without breeding her. There is the possibility that she may produce pups that end up with worse hips than hers (she may not) and you would leave yourself open to possible legal action from irate puppy owners.

Kind Regards

I bred from a male who had a high hipscore via the BVA but an excellent score in Spain.  I did use him, nearly all of his pups are well below the breed average, grandchildren below and one for a year had the lowest score in the country for the breed.  I have one of his grand daughters now that I'm awaiting her score and the films looked good.

This is a rare breed though and he had been used a lot in Spain so I could see many of his pups and grandchildren's scores all around the world who had really good scores too.

Hi ,my dogs are same breed and my boy is 0-0 i have a girl that is just higher then then 19 ive used him to her ,in all her litter she is the only 1 thats higher but only 3 out! hips are very importent BUT like whats been said, theres more to it then just hips!!! my girl has a A1 temrement same has my boy ,she is a sound girl so for that reason im breeding from her and all her pups are going to show/breeding homes apart from 2 (fingers crossed ) plus i will be keeping 1 so i will know out come of health tests of her babies in time... if you feel she has alot to offer and is sound good, comfamation and doing well then maybe think about it?

if spoke to alot of breeders with our breed and they have told me that theirs more to a dog then just A1 hips and this is so true! its no good using a dog with fab score but it is agresive or frightend of its own shadow , comfamation isnt any good ...

i was told by the vet i use that when a score is above av find a dog that is known to bring scores down ...good luck lucy :) xx

Having owned a dog with severe HD (different breed) then I wouldn't take the risk. His parents had great scores - he didn't. We were also asked to use Dakko at stud - beautiful dog, small gene pool - but when his hip scores came back we said no as they were v. high, this was despite his other fantastic qualities and the fact that he had a fantastic temperament. I simply don't think that any qualities are more important than health. I was horrified when I heard that a top breeder in a breed we had was making excuses for breeding an imported dog that had a very poor hip score - I lost all respect for that person and I'm sure others did too.

IMHO I would say enjoy your beautiful girl and maybe get a pup from the same lines to use for breeding - its not as if the breed is rare.

i know a breeder that has a girl she used with hip score of 11-16 , all in the lines were low she thought hard about it and had a litter now ALL from that 1st litter came back with very low scores so she went on to have 1 more litter 2years later with her and the highst that came back was 7-8 ,now from the 1st litter she had 2 of the girls have had pups and 3 males have sired pups not all have been scord (some are just pet) but the ones that have are below 19...

i agree Dakkobear health is the 1st thing but ive seen health being the only thing took into concideration and my goodness some of the dogs you carnt even touch!!! the agression is just to much ,there has to be a line. imo.x

> ALL from that 1st litter came back with very low scores

All I can say is this breeder has been lucky. I have 2 with HD,one mild the other severe and it really doesn't matter how many progeny have good hips if your dog is one of the unlucky ones that has truely awful hips and will need major surgery to be able to make it to old age.

Kind Regards

i hope and pray i never have to roscoebabe i feel for you, xx

Whilst I agree that there is more to a dog than hips, these tests are for a purpose. It must be really disappointing for you, and I applaud you for wanting to do the right thing.

My last girl had awful hips, even though there was nothing for 5 generations with a score above 10. When other siblings were scored and had equally poor hips, together with offspring out of a different bitch, the owner of the stud dog had him castrated and retired him into a pet home. This was a really promising young dog doing exceptionally well in the ring, but the breeder (one of the top breeders in the country) was not prepared to take any more chances. Both the bitches had previously had litters, resulting in sound stock with low hip scores.

Another thing to consider is potential homes. The general public are becoming much more educated re health screening, how many would be prepared to purchase a puppy from a bitch with such a poor hip score. I know I would not touch the litter with a barge pole, no offence meant. I don't breed so don't know, but I would also worry about the legal implications of breeding from your bitch, how would you stand if any puppies from this litter went on to develop HD, and the owners decided to sue you?

I too have sheps...you would need to look at her pedigree, is it mostly line-bred, were her parents outcrossed?  HD is often hidden in line-bred dogs because it's cause is multi-gened.  So both sides of pedigree may have good scores and their progeny may have good scores, but they may 1 or more of the HD genes.  Now if parents are outcrossed with another line which also has good scores but carry the complementary HD genes then you have your dog's high score.  Chances are that you're going to outcross with a mating (as she's an import) so you could well end up with all the HD genes in the pups and they would have HD.  Until these genes are identified and we can have tests showing who carries what breeding will always be a lottery but imo if you're going to use a relatively high scoring dog and you're going to out-cross then the chances of producing pups with HD are higher than using a low scoring dog.  You should perhaps get someone who studies pedigrees to give you a more definitive answer as to why your bitch has the score she has - and perhaps to advise if there are lines where the likelihood of HD are less, but this would be an art rather than a science and I think when you posted you knew what people on here were going to advise, that it's awful to go to the trouble of importing, but better safe than sorry :-(

My last girl had awful hips, even though there was nothing for 5 generations with a score above 10
Which supports Malcolm Willis' idea that although he thought the predisposition to HD was hereditary, he believed that whether the dog developed HD depended on nutritional and environmental influences.
And these X-rays only show what the dog is presenting and not the genes that it is carrying.
I know of a respected breeder of labs who never used a dog or bitch with a higher score than 10 (which was low for labs at that time) for over 20 years and then one of her pups that she sold developed bad hips in adolescence and was scored at 40+.  She was horrified and gave up in the breed. :(

I think that there is still a lot about HD that is not understood and it isn't as simple as just using low scoring dogs........... :(

In my opinion, elbow dysplasia is a far more debilitating condition than hip dysplasia and your girl has a good elbow score. Also hip status is said to be only 30% inheritable. However, I would not advise breeding from her on the grounds that you could end up being sued if she produced a badly dysplastic off-spring and you would not want to be responsible for inflicting pain on a dog and potentially a limited life expectancy. A real shame if her temperament is excellent and many shepherds of uncertain temperament and poor hips/ elbows are bred from but you sound more responsible than that.

Have you had a look at this on the comparable scoring?
http://www.ukbc.co.uk/hipscoring.html
So an A grade goes up to 10 on each side? Which is still a lot for an A, then you have to think about who is scoring the dog's too.
Some dogs over here may have greater scores depending on the X-ray too.
I read of someone who went to their vet for an x-ray, they weren't known to be good and the scores weren't great. They then went to someone well known, got them re-scored and this made a huge difference. There are so many factors on hip scores..

Westcoast - no it's more than scoring, it's because it's complex and caused (or not) by 3 or more genes.  This is why people think it's more than hereditary - it's because it can 'hide' in line-bred (and others) because they may not carry all the genes which cause HD, but when you introduce other lines carrying the other/s genes you can get HD.  Other factors undoubtedly can cause hip problems - whether these can be described as HD is debateable and whether HD can be caused without a pre-disposition to HD is also debateable.  I know of at least one dog who has terrible hips caused by jumping too high too young - it's like HD but it's not actually HD.

This is why it can arise even with good scoring parents and ancestors back as far as you can see.  Without a DNA test to identify the genes and what dogs carry what genes it's always going to be difficult to eradicate HD (because it can hide down the generations).  DNA tests are, however, very difficult because of the complexity and number of genes

> Which supports Malcolm Willis' idea that although he thought the predisposition to HD was hereditary, he believed that whether the dog developed HD depended on nutritional and environmental influences

If a dog is genetically programmed to develop HD that dogs hips will deteriate over the course of time. Environmental and dietary issues may make the progress of HD worse but cannot cause a dog to have HD if the dog is not predisposed in the first place. My lad with severe HD (score high sixties) was exrayed when he was just over 2yrs old and his plates were horrible. He was not over exercised,was not allowed to jump or run up and down stairs,was lifted in and out of the car,not allowed to carry too much weight and was not over loaded with high protien foods. I did everything by the book and still he ended up with hips that will have to be replaced. HD is caused by more than just one gene and even now is not fully understood so really you have to have some sort of base line to work from,whats the point of having your dog scored if that score is brushed aside when it suits? Live with dogs that have HD then tell me its ok to breed regardless of the hip score. Come and watch my lad move and then tell me its ok to breed regardless of the hip score. My girls hips are not quite as bad on paper(her score is mid forties) but she struggles to move almost as much as my lad.

It's heartbreaking pure and simple.

Kind Regards

i agree our boy has jumped from being a 9week old pup he was forever running up stairs and on the go what felt like 24/7 ,we was worried sick when it was time for hip scoreing! so when they came back at 0-0 we couldnt believe it!!!
i think its down to his breeding because if it was down to environmental influences that would of made his very high ,and when i say he jumped i mean 6ft gates :( and still would now to get to the girls given half the chance! hes fed on a dry food and has the odd meaty bone so if its there its there! HD.

but what do you think about odd numberd sides? say 6 on 1 side and 20 the other ,do you class this has genetically HD ? xx

I would try another vet. It may differ now with scoring as I cant really remember what the rules ect were then (I was only a kid) My mum had a GSD and she had her hip scored,she was only a pet but it was more for her peice of mind, by one vet, which was extremley high. She took her to another vet and it was alot lower. I would have said that the 2nd vet was right as she never had even the tiniest problem with her hips at all. Find a specialist in orthopedics, I was talking to my vet and she said that its better done by a specialist because they have the extra training!

I always thought that the plates were sent off to the BVA to be scored by the board and the vet only took the x- ray and didn't do the score so the vet didn't make a difference.

but what do you think about odd numberd sides? say 6 on 1 side and 20 the other ,do you class this has genetically HD

With a very uneven score it generally comes down to an injury and the lowest scoring hip will be the most likely to give the correct status of the hips.  

Vets can only xray, they cannot score. The plates must be sent to the BVA. Scores that are disputed can be re submitted but it must be the same set of plates that are used. Some vets are quite good at "reading" the plates and can have a good guess at the final score but thats all.

Kind Regards

yes this is what i was told by a very good vet that scores gsd's for the police force...xx

the vet i use can only give what he thinks they might come back at! alot of vets but even do that hes very good but it just depends who at the bva scores them ive been told that if they are having a good day your score is a true 1 if their having a bad day its higher LOL i took this with a pinch of salt ;) LOL xx

>My mum had a GSD and she had her hip scored,she was only a pet but it was more for her peice of mind, by one vet, which was extremley high. She took her to another vet and it was alot lower.

The vet cannot score the hips - the x-ray needs to be sent to the BVA to be scored by a panel of people, and this can only be done once. Individual vets can interpret x-rays as best they can, but some are better than others at this! However they cannot give a score.

Which supports Malcolm Willis' idea that although he thought the predisposition to HD was hereditary, he believed that whether the dog developed HD depended on nutritional and environmental influences.

Ah but in the case of my girl, if I remember there were 5 other pups from the litter scored and my girl had the lowest score (in the 60's). Given that 6 pups from a litter of 9 all had poor hips, I think we are safe to assume that this was down to genetics.

My girl was reared with exactly the same care as my previous girl who had a 2:1 score, infact the worse score I had ever had was 4:5. It was such a shock and disappointment as I had intended doing working trials with her. Having said that she never had a days lameness in her life, although we lost her at 7 with a brain tumour.

There is a difference in my opinion between a score that is functionally normal (under 18 or 20 total) and one that is in the dysplastic range.

This is why I like using the OFA chart guide comparing different schemes: http://www.offa.org/hd_grades.html

The comparison shows that scores below 5 (with no more than 3 per his) would equate to Excellent, up to 10 Good, and up to 17 as Fair.  there are all classed as NORMAL a score of between 18 - 25 is classed as Borderline and then scores above that fall into abnormal/Dysplastic, and these are graded as Mild dysplasia (26 - 35), Moderate Dysplasia (36 - 50) and Severe Dysplasia (51+).

I would have not problem in my breed using a dog scoring 20 (our mean score varies between 3 and 14) if it came from generations of respectable scores and is going to be mated to a partner with a  good score and good scoring ancestry.

> it just depends who at the bva scores them ive been told that if they are having a good day your score is a true 1 if their having a bad day its higher

It is a panel of 3 specialists that score the plates, so I don't think one of them having an off day is going to affect a score by much ;)

> but what do you think about odd numberd sides? say 6 on 1 side and 20 the other ,do you class this has genetically HD

As the inheritance of HD is bilateral sides varying wildly are likely to be environmental factors.  That is borne out by statistics where the difference between hips is rarely more than about 3 points.  Some of this difference will be slight positional error in the x-ray skewing one side a bit lower and the other a bit higher.

Two champion sisters in my breed were scored, one came back with a sore in the low 20's with one side a 3 the other I believe 18, her sister was 3/4 and I think another litter-mate was similar.

Advice was sought from Malcolm Willis re breeding from this bitch, she in fact produced from her second litter only the second 0/0 score in the breed.

Advice was sought from Malcolm Willis
I trusted his knowledge too rather than internet heresay. :)

Talking about Malcolm Willis, sorry it does relate to some degree to this topic.

There are many books by him on genetics and just wondered if some were a better read than others. Amazon has a lot and wondered if this book was a good one, or can anyone offer other recommendations?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dogs-Breeding-Control-Inherited-Disease/dp/B000WBLFOW/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1290965102&sr=1-4

If I had to choose I would choose the most recent one on the topic covered.

I trusted his knowledge too rather than internet heresay. 

so do i :)
but has i said about my boy he dont stop hes been this way from a pup but still 0-0 ,and the way hes been i was dreading his scores :)

Not replying to anyone in particular here but to several so just tucking the post on the end. Re. scoring -you can only submit x-ray plates for hip scoring ONCE! So there is absolutely no point in going to a different vet and taking different plates as once you've had them scored by the panel that's it. If you appeal against the score the best that can happen is that the same plates are looked at again.

> So an A grade goes up to 10 on each side?

No that is for the total of both hips.

As a matter of interest, what were the scores for subluxation and cranial acetabular edge (as I believe those are the two that they do say are hereditary/important to be low rather than higher)?

Hi All , can i just say that i have decided not to breed from the bitch in question and it is NOT the bitch who has just had pups , only stating this as i was asked via a pm. I am disappointed that her hips came back higher than average but have decided that i am not prepared to take any risks.