http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/3428/23/244/3

"Following discussions with the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, the British Veterinary Association and the British Small Animal Veterinary Association, the organisations have agreed to advise their members that any caesarean sections which they perform on a Kennel Club registered bitch should be reported to the Kennel Club."

That's all very well, but how is the vet to know whether the bitch is KC registered?

Excellent. 

Hopefully this will encourage breeders in breeds where C sections have become routine to select for self whelping.

The two litters is appropriate as of course one would give a bitch a second chance as there can be various reasons for a C section, but after two sections the bitch really should nto be bred from for her welfare, and of course in case the trait is inherited.

In my own line of bitches I had a C section for the last litter of my first generation home-bred bitch, and recently from her great granddaughter (so 4th generation home-bred), also from her last litter. 

The latter bitch had her first pup and then had problems, so certainly not Primary Inertia (which is believed to be strongly inherited).

> That's all very well, but how is the vet to know whether the bitch is KC registered?

None of the Vets I have been to ever wanted to register my dogs with their KC names, only their Pet names, though I do insist they not the KC name too, they rae still refered to as e.g. Fido Smith.

A good idea but it will be interesting to see how it works in practice.  I don't have many dogs and my Vets is a very small concern (the boss and two other Vets) but she struggles to recognise the individuals when they attend (which is rarely :-)).  She relies on me to identify them.  I can't see unscrupulous breeders being open and honest about which bitch is which if it means they would be unable to register a litter.  Mandatory identification of all animals would possibly make this work????

> The two litters is appropriate as of course one would give a bitch a second chance as there can be various reasons for a C section,

I agree Barbara, and, as you know, I won't even keep a bitch pup from a bitch with inertia problems.  They go as pets.  But the breed club already says a maximum of 2 sections anyway.  I have always normally spayed after one C-section.

But, a couple of years ago, I had a C-section on a bitch, and my vet actually told me that "it was bloody bad luck" due to a malpresentation.  And he saw no reason whatsoever not to try again.  I can't tell you how much worry I put into my decision!  But I have to say that he really did know what he was talking about, and her second litter was a totally straightforward self whelp.

"except for scientifically proven welfare reasons "

can anyone tell me what they mean by this?

When I bred a bitch years ago, we had line-bred this particular dog & bitch and assumed things would go smoothly.  Unfortunately both pregnancies resulted in c-sections and dead puppies.  After a while, we decided to give her one last try as we really wanted a pup out of my girl but we had a re-think about the stud dog and spoke to our vet about the chances of a thrid section.  We decided to go ahead and thankfully we had a successful litter delivered naturally after 2 sections.
Bit like women these days, loads more sections as doctors can't take chances.

Why do I have warning bells ringing?? Is it because I can see this as yet another case of the good doing things properly as they always have and being sensible about C sect's and the bad putting the lives of bitch and pups at risk in order to avoid a C sect so as to get as many litters as poss!!! I feel that it may be pushing bad breeders into waiting too long before getting medical intervention for a bitch in trouble. Those who have bred carefully will continue to do so while those of a little more...cavalere..money grabbing...outlook will just hold off for too long before helping Mum out medically.
I think it is a wonderfull idea to put this restiction on numbers but seriously doubt that it will hit home to those who need to sort out the way they breed. I think it may be putting lives at risk.
Aileen

I can see what you mean, as good breeders would have been restricting things themselves, same with litter numbers, good breeder never needed it in regulations as they wouldn't dream of over breeding.

Rules are helpful in showing what is unacceptable as sadly some people see nothing wrong with overbreeding lots of C sections, breeding from dogs with poor health or temperament.

> "except for scientifically proven welfare reasons "
>
> can anyone tell me what they mean by this?

I hope they will clarify this, but I would think this would mean that it was medically necessary - ie a stuck pup.  In the case of one person I know the first pup was across the canal so couldn't get out itself, and was blocking the rest of the pups, but wasn't anything inherited, and the vets had no doubt the bitch would have delivered fine except for the presentation of this one pup.

>but I would think this would mean that it was medically necessary - ie a stuck pup.

It can't mean that, because the clause goes on " save for scientifically proven welfare reasons and this only normally provided the application is made prior to the mating.'" You can't know there's going to be a stuck pup before the bitch is even mated.

Merlot, I agree! many will leave there bitches longer in more pain. My one bitch had a normal birth, Sammies, have an average of 5-7 pups. Average of 5-6 surviving. Her last litter was 9 very rare. The first litter was even sized. Second litter wasn't. one small pup turned in the channel, blocked the way of the others. The vet messed about scanning, xraying, Idiot, to see if she was pregnant, I had 5 pups, I had delivered with me. I decided section. No messing about. My Bitch was my main concern. There are No C/sections on either side of her pedigree.
I can't see this working. Who really wants to pay between £700.00 and £1000.00 for a c/section Money making egh!! must be joking!!

> It can't mean that, because the clause goes on " save for scientifically proven welfare reasons and this only normally provided the application is made prior to the mating.'" You can't know there's going to be a stuck pup before the bitch is even mated.

The application before mating refers to the exception for if you've already had 2 sections.  So you'd have to prove your previous ones were for medical reasons (not due to the breed or hereditary reasons).  You'd apply in advance to allow for a section 'just in case' having provided proof of the above.  Obviously if she delivers normally it won't make a difference, but if she needs a 3rd section, then it's been pre-approved.

What  about the breeds that have a very high level of c-sections like the bulldog and french bulldogs? What will they do? This may lead to bitches suffering and even dying. Or could naughty breeders get round it by using a number of different vets?

Alot of vets don't like the kennel club so wont report back to them.

Also on another topic we spoke of how puppy farmers get licensed and how certain vets in Wales are known as puppy farm vets. Money will change hands and nothing will be said.

The decent breeders don't need this rule and the bad ones won't abide by it

                     The decent breeders don't need this rule and the bad ones won't abide by it

so sad but so true!:(

jg im guessing that means that if you have a csection because of a stuck pup, then you need to get approval before mating next time.