Im hoping im going to find someone else on here who agrees with me!

I know these persons who is cross breeding. These are not the breeds but using them as an example, well say she owns a westie and the other dog being bred is yorkshire terrier! I said to her that i think its a rediculous idea crossing the two because whilst there cute and everyone wants a new puppy they are going to grow up and them idiots buying them dont have a "classy" dog and get rid of it in replace of a pure bred dog.

I got told I was a hypocrit because I bred my dog (a healthy small breed which sees a vet regualar and has had health tests!) and that they can do what they like with there dog! a lot more was said but thats the round up of it.

she also said that I was jelous becaue I hadnt bred from my cross breed dogs WHICH WERE RESCUES. I dont regret having any of them neutered at all!

m just frustrated that Im alway told my opinion dont count! I couldnt care less what shse does with her life but when shes possibly going to be bringing upto 8 cross breed puppies into the world that could verywell end up being put to sleep I feel that she should consider them, cos she wont take them back if anything goes wrong in the new home.

Am I wrong for saying this? Should she have the right to do this?

She was just pressing the right buttons.  And you bit!

Don't stress out on what you cannot change.  In all fairness, it is none of your business.  So please don't let it wind you up.

There's always that hole you can fall into when you breed/show/own a quality dog that makes you feel superior to all other 'kinds' of breeders :D i suggest you put it down to experience, move on and learn to give advice only when asked as unwanted advice is often prone to offence ask my mother in law ;)

>shes possibly going to be bringing upto 8 cross breed puppies into the world that could verywell end up being put to sleep

>i think its a rediculous idea crossing the two because whilst there cute and everyone wants a new puppy they are going to grow up and them idiots buying them dont have a "classy" dog and get rid of it in replace of a pure bred dog.

If you're going to try and convince someone to change their mind then you'll need better arguments than these.  Is there any reason to think they may be put to sleep?  That's such a vague notion that it is bound to be disregarded as unlikely.  Your second point about idiots presumably depends entirely on who she sells to...

I'm not saying I agree with silly named crossbreeds and pet breeding for cash but you really have to find a different angle if you wish to persuade her it isn't wise and even then you're probably going to fail.  People like this see ££ signs and seem unable to comprehend their responsibilities to their bitch, the puppies and the potential owners.  I wish you luck 

Lol I didnt just say oh theylll end up put to sleep I tried to explain that she would have no idea who was buying the pups (in her opinion is if there willing to pay that means they will be looked after :S). She asked me for my advice about advertising them and would I be willing to lend her the STUD FEE!

1) she really shouldnt be bringing in more cross breeds esspecially that are diffuclt enough to control when there fully grown let alone being cross bred!
2) she will need alot more time than just in the morning and evening.
3) shed need to have money to pay the vet if somethig went wrong  (something she havent got)

I know that they hopefully anyway are unlikely going to end up being put to sleep and i didnt say to her that! Thats my opinon! Yes, I bred my dog but I have made sure that all the new owners know that they can bring the back to me at any point, where as she isnt bothered QUOTE"once there gone there gone and they cant make me take them back besides i got no room!"

I know its not really my buissness but why should people be allowed to breed dogs JUST for money? because thats all shes intrested in.

> I know its not really my buissness but why should people be allowed to breed dogs JUST for money? because thats all shes intrested in.

Take a look at the KC Breed Records Supplement and they are purebreds. You will find that an enormous number of people breed puppies "just for money" (Although a large number will have reasons and excuses for doing so!)

I said to her that i think its a rediculous idea crossing the two because whilst there cute and everyone wants a new puppy they are going to grow up and them idiots buying them dont have a "classy" dog and get rid of it in replace of a pure bred dog.

Sorry I have to ask why do you think people who buy cross breeds are idiots?  Let us not forget that there many people who deliberately breed cross breeds (including the GDBA) for specific purposes and various disciplines, many of which have gone on to be Champions in their relevant sports.

I got told I was a hypocrit because I bred my dog (a healthy small breed which sees a vet regualar and has had health tests!) and that they can do what they like with there dog! a lot more was said but thats the round up of it.

Of course anyone can do what they like with their dog, it is their property (obviously within reason re cruelty etc).  Also please remember that pure bred breeders do not have the monopoly on health screening their breeding stock!  I know many breeders of cross breeds that have all the relevant health tests done, and many, many more breeders of purebreds that have not had ANY done on their dogs!

Im just frustrated that Im alway told my opinion dont count! I couldnt care less what shse does with her life but when shes possibly going to be bringing upto 8 cross breed puppies into the world that could verywell end up being put to sleep I feel that she should consider them, cos she wont take them back if anything goes wrong in the new home.

The value of personal opinion rests on the skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience of the giver; whether it is informed or not and the estimation of the receiver.  ALL puppies could end up being put to sleep, and how do you KNOW that she will not take any back?  Or is that just another of your opinions?

I tried to explain that she would have no idea who was buying the pups (in her opinion is if there willing to pay that means they will be looked after :S). She asked me for my advice about advertising them and would I be willing to lend her the STUD FEE!

When you breed, what idea do YOU have on who is buying the pups?

1) she really shouldnt be bringing in more cross breeds esspecially that are diffuclt enough to control when there fully grown let alone being cross bred!

I am not aware of any breeds that are particularly more difficult to control than others or when cross bred, I am aware of the difference of skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience of owners though.

2) she will need alot more time than just in the morning and evening.

That is for her to organise, not you to fret over.

3) shed need to have money to pay the vet if somethig went wrong  (something she havent got)

Well, the RSPCA and PDSA have systems in place for this.

Yes, I bred my dog but I have made sure that all the new owners know that they can bring the back to me at any point, where as she isnt bothered QUOTE"once there gone there gone and they cant make me take them back besides i got no room!"

Again this sort of outlook is not exclusive to the breeders of cross breeds IME!

I know its not really my buissness but why should people be allowed to breed dogs JUST for money? because thats all shes intrested in.

Correct and it costs money to produce a litter, ie health screening tests, stud fees, vet fees, advertising, kc registration, microchipping, tattooing, etc etc I have not met many people who can afford to give their pups away or choose to.  Let us not kid ourselves, people sell their dogs, they do not gift the majority of them.

You cannot control others, but you can adjust your own attitude.

Your post reminds me of something somebody said to me about someone else who although inexperienced had a litter from a very well bred and health screened bitch using a similar stud instead of HER stud after seeking advice from several experienced individuals in the breed.  This person said that they could not wait until these pups ended up in rescue!

Hmmm, told me a lot about her, and what her true feelings about the breed were; somewhat less than the feelings she had about her dog being overlooked (by two breeders) for stud duties!

Erm we all know people who maybe doing things we would not agree with and if asked for advice would give our honest opinion on it and although the OP may not have been directly asked for advice they were asked for input ( loan of stud fee) Should they just say no I can't lend you the money or should they express their opinion about the advisability of carrying on with the plans if they felt they were misguided at best. Other posters on here have asked for advice on how to best put an aquaintance off breeding when they consider it irrisponsible and have been given such advice.

I completely agree the times we see people banging on about how bad it is to cross breed and irresponsible to breed fluffy I was surprised by the combative responses, just the way to keep more people off the boards ;(

ive just been reading and very confussed why people are bitting at the OP she is right to be upset about this i would too ,and what satincllie has put is so right!

Your best route is to point out that puppy buyers can take a breeder to court (anyone that breeds a litter is a breeder) if the puppies develop a health issue that could have been tested for.

All breeds can get Hip dysplasia, so both parents should be hip scored (cost around £200), some of the eye problems are caused by the same gene in a whole group of breeds.

If the bitch needs a C section (more likely if it is a Toy breed, one of the large headed breeds) it will cost at least £500 in the day and possibly three times that out of hours.

If the bitch dies or cannot/will not look after the pups it will mean round the clock care and feeding every two hours for at least 3 weeks and then feeding 6 times or so a day after 4 weeks.

Puppies need a lot of care and once weaning starts feeding at least four times a day.  they will cost a lot to feed.  A litter of 6 medium breed pups and their Mum will be getting through a 15kg sack of food a week, at an average cost of £30 for just a decent mid range food.

What will she do if she cannot find buyers?  If they stay past 10 or 12 weeks she will have the cost of vaccinations (at least £50 each), she will need to train them etc.

By the time they are 4 weeks they will need more space and attention,a dn can be very noisy and cause neighbours to complain.

This last may fall on deaf ears, but remind her that a good breeder is responsible for the puppies welfare for the whole of their lives, and at any time an owner may need to re-home their dog, will she really tell them to get lost???

> would I be willing to lend her the STUD FEE!

, this screams to me that she can't afford this litter, I can't imagine that the fee would be huge??

Can you point her to this forum for advice? Or at least print off what Brainless has said about litters. Do you have Book of the Bitch you can lend her too, may make her realise there is a lot more to it.

I agree with you about pointless crosses, there is no genuine purpose to this one at all. Clearly they aren't working dogs either. Or are they the dogs b****cks in ratting? lol
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/121110.html Here is a good link and also
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=1164981;hl=#pid1164981

> ive just been reading and very confussed why people are bitting at the OP she is right to be upset about this i would too ,and what satincllie has put is so right!

Ditto, i couldn't understand it either.  Was bit cowardly to say due to the tone of some of hte responses.  Especially when there is thread condeming cross breeds.

I NEVER said people crossing them are idiots! Re read it please and you will see that I said
idiots buying them dont have a "classy" dog and get rid of it in replace of a pure bred dog
I know 3 people who got rid of their cross breed dog and replaced it with a pure bred, because it never made the "grade".

I got told I was a hypocrit because I bred my dog (a healthy small breed which sees a vet regualar and has had health tests!) and that they can do what they like with there dog! a lot more was said but thats the round up of it.
My point here was that the dog has not seen a vet since it was a pup its now 3

and how do you KNOW that she will not take any back
BEcause she told me she wont AND I KNOW she wont!

I am not aware of any breeds that are particularly more difficult to control than others or when cross bred, I am aware of the difference of skills, knowledge, ability, training and experience of owners though.
Here im talking about the 2 breeds shes got plans on mixing and that if they end up in the wrong hands it could be a child lying in hospital woth half its face ripped off, I know this can happen with any dog but less likely to happen with a lab than pit!

Well, the RSPCA and PDSA have systems in place for this.
only if you are on benfits which she isnt! CALL THEM AND YOU WILL SEE

Again this sort of outlook is not exclusive to the breeders of cross breeds IME!
That was what SHE said and how IKNOW she wont take them back!

This person said that they could not wait until these pups ended up in rescue
Im not saying and never said to her theyd end up in resuces! I would like to hope that they never end up in rescues but at the end of the day she isnt intrested int he welfare of the pups AND IN MY OPINION of her dog either otherwise shed make sure she was there for the dog if it needed help, both in person and finacially!

IM NOT SAYING BREEDERS WHO CROSS ARE USELESS just when they dont have the means to support or care for their dog they plan to breed!

Samie

Has she found a stud dog?  Maybe the best you can hope for is that she can't find a dog owner willing to do the cross OR that she cannot find the money to afford it.  It sounds as if she isn't open to advice however well meaning.  It this type of indescriminate breeding that really gets my goat but sadly it's often done by people who are never going to listen to others opinion or advice.  I suspect that whatever 'evidence' you present her with, she has made up her mind.  What a shame

Let's just hope her girl misses but, if not, do make it clear that you aren't going to help her out of any mess she finds herself in.

My sister has a sealyham terrier,a breed that won crufts a couple of years back and i believe originally a cross between a dandie dinmont,a westie and corgi i believe?The point is that all pedigrees started somewhere and where i stongly disagree with people breeding and crossing anything and not health testing i dispise people starting the cross breeds are inferior discussion and cross breed versus pedigree,its ridiculous because they are all beautiful dogs in their own rights,i think its pathetic!! One of the dogs i walk is a planned cross and both her parents were eye tested hip scored and her owner was home checked too so not all people who cross breed are bad! Im about to hopefully buy my first show dog but a friend bought a pup in the same breed a year ago and she has just had her first operation to create a hip socket because she has a hereditary condition something that could have been avoided if the parents were hip scored!

Kenzi to suggest a planned cross breed would not be at risk from certain conditions is a bit naive, as 2 different breeds may not grow at the same rate so there is no way of knowing what skeletal conditions could arise from that mating regardless if the parents had been tested, you cannot guarantee with a crossbreed what traits or conformation from each of the parent will come out . Hip scoring is not a guarantee either that the pups would be free from hip dysplasia its an indication that they are less likely to develop it, in a crossbreed the ability to say that would be considerably less.

Breeds evolved and were refined from a type.

For example terrier types, spaniel types molloser/mastiff types.

Depending on where they were and what they were used for distinct strains/types emerged and these became breeds.

It is only very recently that actual distinct breeds have been crossbred to produce well crossbreeds, very occasionally a breed was produced to fit a particular niche not already occupied.  For example the Doberman, and the Czesky Terrier.

The current 'designer' crosses have no such intentions, they a re simply bred as a money making gimmick and often very uncomplemenary breeds with conflicting traits are being mixed.

It's the people doing this who have 'inferior' motives.  They are not preserving or improving anything.  In fact they are undoing, taking the evolution of the domestic dog backwards.

> but a friend bought a pup in the same breed a year ago and she has just had her first operation to create a hip socket because she has a hereditary condition something that could have been avoided if the parents were hip scored!

The fault is not that they were purebred, the fault was they were not health tested, and came from a poor quality breeder.  Unfortunately most of these crosses fall into that bracket.

I cannot see why, especially a bitch owner of a quality pedigree bitch  who is health tested would waste her potential on creating crossbreeds when she could pass on her excellent traits to her breed.

If the stock being used for crossbreeding is poor quality, then what is the point of breeding from them, what is the aim of the crosses, apart from novelty.  the original experiment was not a success, some guide dogs with non shedding coats were produced, but not a large proportion of the pups bred.

There is no advantage that a Labrador x Poodle has over it's purebred parents.  Both parent breeds have the potential for the same form of PRA, both (as do all dogs) can develop Hip dysplasia.  You cannot know what the coat size, or activity levels will be or what latent abilities if any will be displayed.  Both breeds were original used for hunting, but the Poodle had not been bred for working ability in a long time.  A Poodle has a light frame, a Labrador has a broad body with a large head.

What i dont understand is that if a crossbreed has a heridtary problem it must be because its a cross breed and badly bred but if its a pedigree its simply because the parents arent health tested,i disagree i say its exactly the same,because the parents arent health tested.Im an owner of pedigrees so i am am not saying all this because i have a crossbreed but the the breeder where the dog i walk comes from treats her pups just as a pedigree owner would and spends a fortune on the pups,litters are only occasional and this particular cross has been a popular cross for years,this is how all pedigrees start isnt it and if arguements like this occured many years ago none of the pedigrees today would not exist.I think its awful to put ALL cross bred litters under one catagory.I also strongly disagree with pedigree/show breeders rehoming so called breeding stock,an awful description simply because thay are past their sell by date.The breeder i got my bitch from( a pedigree) doesnt do this thankfully but many do and i think its disgusting.Far rather have someone that carefully and lovingly raises the odd crossbreed litter and  has the mother treated like a family member and in the family home than a pedigree raised in a kennel shown all the time for several years then sold when too old,its horrific,im sure there must be someone out there who doesnt agree with this either.I do however think that some intentional cross breed are rediculious and many are in it for the money but not all and this goes for pedigrees too.As a child i always had crossbreeds,all of them healthy and none of them had any problems.Dogs are dogs and should not be put in to catagories of which are inferior,i do realise some crosses are rediculios and dont match with regards to build,temprement and looks etc,i take that point so that doesnt have to be brought up again but i thi nk some crosses should be given a chance,just like the original crosses of today known now as pedigrees once were!!

I don't know where you get that idea.  Most crossbreeds are not health tested so badly bred crossbreeds will have health issues the same as badly bred purebreds.

Well bred purebreds will have breeders who try by health testing, knowledge of liens etc to produce typical examples of their breeds that are more likely to be healthy too.  After all a true breed lover that lives with the results of their own breeding for generations wants to be living with healthy happy dogs them selves.

Even a well intentioned cross breeder is starting from a bad position.  they are unlikely to be using well bred health tested breeding stock to start with.  It's hard enough breeding within a gene pool of knopwn traits in oen breed, let aloen knowing enough about several breeds and how their traits for good or ill may interact in crossbred pups.

Their reasons for breeding are also beyond me, and probably more to do with saleability than love of a particular breed/type, as they are not trying to breed anything true to a type.  What are they hoping to achieve other than sales?

> The breeder i got my bitch from( a pedigree) doesn't do this thankfully but many do and i think its disgusting.

Actually you will find those to be in the minority, though some will retire dogs to good Friends if it is in the dogs best interest (not all dogs do best as part of a large group).

Most commercial breeders (puppy farmers/Back Yarders) under which category the majority of these cross breeders come keep their bitches while they can get puppies out of them.  Many of these are abandoned/killed, not even found homes for.

What i dont understand is that if a crossbreed has a heridtary problem it must be because its a cross breed and badly bred but if its a pedigree its simply because the parents arent health tested

No, it will, in both cases, be because the parents are AFFECTED by the problem. Health testing won't solve anything unless the result is acted upon.

> this is how all pedigrees start isnt it and if arguements like this occured many years ago none of the pedigrees today would not exist.

And that's another can of worms.... Most of today's breeds either evolved slowly over centuries, or were deliberately created in times when it was considered perfectly normal to put down any which weren't up to standard, were unable to do the job they were bred for, had health defects or just weren't suitable for breeding. Also many of the breeders were extremely well-off with huge kennels and could keep many, many more dogs than is possible today.

That's certainly not the case any more, and dogs are sold as pets rather than being culled.... and rightly so!... but then if you get people breeding from those pets (which may have breed defects or health defects rendering them unsuitable for breeding), you're just going to get more and more of the same.

That's a very good point indeed, MsTemeraire. The world is a very different place to the world in which most dog breeds were developed. So many breeds were developed by gentry with mansions and staff and dogs were just stock then.

And that is where I have the moral issue with anyone trying to create new breeds when there are more than enough for anyones tastes already, many in danger of dying out and in sore need of support.

To establish breeds with a decent gene pool means creating lost of surplus/unsuitable dogs (from the point of view of the purpose of breeding them).  These all need to be found homes.  IN years past they were simply disposed of and the breeder tried again culled and bred again over and over to get what they were aiming for, which was a dog for a specific purpose, rarely simply to be pets.

A crossbreed going by various names an described as wolf lookalike breed is an example in point, very high levels of inbreeding not seen in established breeds for decades or a century, health issues being bred in from the breeds used in the mix etc, and still not discernible reliable type (even if the various factions could agree)  same with some of the retro bulldog crosses, not the over simple thinking of health issue free old style dogs.

Anyone with the wolf lookalike breeds or anyone knows of health problems could you PM me as I'm trying to find out some info for someone.

There was a recent post and seen many on other forums related to the incredible generation after generation of close inbreeding.

THere's a certain problem that I'm interested in as the owner believes or has been led to believe that she's the only one with the problem.

From what I have seen and been told elsewhere she may have a problem with that as I don't think accurate records have been kept with regard to some cross-breeding. I may be wrong, but I gather there is a certain crossbreed where records are sketchy to say the least.