Earlier on in the year i sold one of my puppies, a contract was involved, of which i dont think the purchased signed.  Over the past 3days i have learned that the owner has a drink problem and has been drunk, carers have been feeding and watering the dog, even though he is in good health if anything he is overweight so the few days of not being fed wouldnt have harmed him too much, and he isnt getting walked, meanoing he is bouncing off the walls.  The back yard is covered in faeces.  I occasionally walk the dog, and after walking him today refused to take him back home and bought him back to my house.  This is obviously a case of neglect.  The owner mediated through a friend of mine, and i was told that if i didnt return the dog they would go to the police, of which i did.  Who is in the right, and do i have the right to having the dog back, could i go through the rspca.  This is breaking my heart to know that i cant do anything at the moment. 

To be honest I think legally you have no claim on the dog. In actual fact puppy contracts are actually quite useless. The law of contract says if they purchased him its theres to do with what they like plus the fact thay they never even signed the contract meant they entered into no contract. I think you could be charged with theft. You could call the RSPCA although they hardly ever remove dogs kept in poor conditions (know this from previous dealings with them).

Maybe if you try and offer them a full refund they may accept?

I know you are understandably worried about your puppy - grown up now, I would think - but I wonder about the owner. At some point s/he was ideal enough for you to trust a pup to.

Peoples' lives can change dramatically overnight - divorce, bereavement, and so on. I know that there have been times in my life when I have struggled with my own animals for various reasons.... I have been lucky in having friends who could help out. And now I have learned from that and have emergency protocols worked out if anything similar should happen again. It's tough when you live on your own.

Obviously I don't know the situation fully but a plump dog & messy back yard is nothing in the grand scheme of things, it seems like some support is already being given. I would find out more about what's going on, if this person's dog was taken away and they are already emotionally fragile it might tip them over the edge.

Offer to foster the dog if you can... and please try to talk to the owner... someone who is having a crisis does lose the plot a bit for a short time, but losing their best friend forever is a very tough thing to deal with on top of all else.

> I would find out more about what's going on, if this person's dog was taken away and they are already emotionally fragile it might tip them over the edge.
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> someone who is having a crisis does lose the plot a bit for a short time, but losing their best friend forever is a very tough thing to deal with on top of all else.

Worth thinking about, you do need to know the bigger picture.

I've been in the situation where I was worried about losing my dogs.  About 5 or so years ago, I had hand surgery that went wrong.  I couldn't even change the bed sheets, let alone see to a gang of dogs.  I was laid up for 8 months with nerve damage, and in excruciating pain, in bed with my hand attached to a pulley.  I don't have any family.

I had to lie about living alone, as they wouldn't allow me out of hospital unless someone could look after me.  My dog sitter slept on a Z bed in my living room.  While he only sometimes remembered that I was still upstairs, I didn't ask him to stay because he was a people person!  I just wanted to know that my dogs were looked after.

At the end of it all, my house was a mess, and he hadn't done things like get boosters done.  But I only persevered with very painful physio because I had my dogs waiting for me.  If anyone had taken them, because I couldn't care for them, I would have been so depressed that I would never have worked like I did to get back on form.

Hi,

If you registered the litter this pup came from online check on your KC account to see if this owner has transfered ownership of this dog into their name. Bearing in mind they have a drink problem etc..perhaps they forgot to? If they havent then technically you still own the dog in that its still in your name, I have found with some of our puppy people they dont always transfer ownership.

It must be so upsetting for you though, in cases like this breeders do not have the law on their side

>If they havent then technically you still own the dog in that its still in your name, I have found with some of our puppy people they dont always transfer ownership.

Legally, registration does nothing to prove ownership. As soon as money changed hands then the buyer became the legal owner and all the breeder's rights disappeared.

Is possession not 9/10ths of the law??  If the pup has never been transfered with the KC and you have possession of the dog, who's to say it was ever his dog anyway??  I'm sorry but I would take my pup out of that situation regardless of what consequences it had on the owner.  Someone compared this man alcohol problem with recovery from surgery but that's not the same.  This guy had a choice to start drinking or not.  Nerve damage during surgery/recovery is not optional!

Just wondered if you've actually sat down and spoken with the owner of the dog? You say you've learnt he has a drink problem, but have you seen this for yourself if you've been walking the dog?

Like others have said, something may of happened in his life which has led him to be going through a rough patch with drink. Have you tried to speak to him about maybe you walking this dog daily, or fostering it? If he is depressed and having a rough time he maybe thankful for some extra help, but to take away a dog which is with him as a companion may just send him over the edge.

I honestly think you need to speak to him and get more information, as at this time when I first read it, I thought oh god, then JeanSW made mention of another side, you just don't know. If he has carers in then that alerts to me that something is not right with his health, especially if they come daily.

Is possession not 9/10ths of the law??  If the pup has never been transfered with the KC and you have possession of the dog, who's to say it was ever his dog anyway??

The law does -all the owner needs is the dog to be registered with a vet in their name, photos of the dog in their home, anyone who can testify the dogs lives with them and similar.

if you are able to walk the dog at least you know the dogs fine...i hope you can get somthing sorted soon xx

>Is possession not 9/10ths of the law?? If the pup has never been transfered with the KC and you have possession of the dog, who's to say it was ever his dog anyway??

So if someone takes your bicycle it becomes theirs? I don't think so! If they've paid money for the pup, and can prove it (bank statements etc) then it's their property. No question. Removing it from them becomes theft.

>This is breaking my heart to know that i cant do anything at the moment. 

If you were prepared to have the dog back full-time, couldn't you offer to walk the dog daily (if poss) and pop in several times a week to help out with it's care - this way the dog gets to stay with it's owner, the owner (who seems to be going through a tough time) gets to keep his dog and you get to make sure the dog is well looked after. An all-round winning situation :)

Yes, just to re-iterate what others have said KC registration and transfers mean absolutely nothing, proof of purchase is all that is needed as to who owns the dog and has full rights to it.

Taking the dog without permission is theft and keeping the dog will lead to courts and prosecution, you have no rights here at all I'm afraid.

I just wanted to say, please be very careful, if you get on the wrong side of your pups owner this person can just discard you from their life with no contact of your dog at all, which is the last thing that you want. Reporting to the RSPCA can go either way, they will either seize the dog and that doesn't mean you will get him, they will vet and decide where the dog goes, not necessarily back to breeder you need to bare that in mind, or they will decide yes the dogs owner is a drunk and not caring for the dog, but the owners carers are now feeding him and you walk him occasionally, he has food, water and shelter and they will leave it at that, they are not always the knights in shinning armour we believe them to be, plenty of dogs to me have a terrible life but the RSPCA deem it to be adequate. :-(

I am with you 100% in your worries and I would be so upset and horrified, probably feel like kidnapping the dog myself and wouldn't  be able to sleep for worry, I think most of us can understand how terrible this is,  but you have to play things very carefully, you have no rights, keep on side of the owner as a friend who will help, you have no other choice and keep saying nicely that you will always take the dog back if the owner is struggling.

Otherwise, play it devious................

Drunks have up and down days, wait for a down day when the person is feeling sorry for themselves and has a moment of clarity and admits they are struggling and not keeping the dog well enough, I would then whip out a pre-written receipt for £50+ for sale of the dog, give them the money (that is your evidence of purchase) get a signature then get them to sign the transfer papers over (though not important as proof as purchase) and leave with the dog.

Obviously if things get so bad and nothing you do works you'll have to call the RSPCA and hope for the best, but if they don't take the dog, she'll probably guess you called them and you could lose contact.

It's a hard one, I know, but wishing you all the best, you never know a miracle could happen the owner may turn around............

> Drunks have up and down days, wait for a down day when the person is feeling sorry for themselves and has a moment of clarity and admits they are struggling and not keeping the dog well enough, I would then whip out a pre-written receipt for £50+ for sale of the dog, give them the money (that is your evidence of purchase) get a signature then get them to sign the transfer papers over (though not important as proof as purchase) and leave with the dog.

If the person can prove that they were not of sound mind at the time, somthing like that may back fire. If the man is seeing the Dr. for mental health probems, or even for drinking problems, it would not be too hard for him to prove he had been taken advantage of whilst low and unable to make a sound judgement at the time.

True, in many cases that would stand up in court, but in this case I don't think so, I would personally take that risk if it arose and argue if the owner ever tried to use 'under the influence or at a low eb' to win the dog back that there is absolutely no law that says you can not buy things or even be given things from those who are under the influence, just whether they were taken advantage of or not for personal gain, in this case a breeder acting on being offered back a dog which she had bred and could see was being mistreated (with witnesses from the carers etc) acted on the offer of purchase purely for the dogs welfare not for any personal gain. Very doubtful she would lose.

> is absolutely no law that says you can not buy things or even be given things from those who are under the influence, just whether they were taken advantage of or not for personal gain, in this case a breeder acting on being offered back a dog which she had bred and could see was being mistreated

I didn't mean the fact he was drunk could go against the OP, but if he is drinking due to mental health problems (depression etc.) then that may deem him to be not fit to make a judgement, add to that the fact the OP has 'stolen' the dog allready can make it look as if the person has been taken advantage of for the OPs personal gain. It can be looked upon that if the OP is concerned over the welfare of the dog then the best thing to do is to get help for the dog from an external body, taking the dog herself may not be deemed to be soley in the interests of the dogs welfare.

My OHs nan had a nervous breakdown, her brother was legally in charge of her financial affairs at the time. He made sure her will was in order and got her to sign it. Once she was back to full health she realised her brother had made the will out so that everything she owned went to him. Her brother had actually bought OHs nan house for her, on the promise it when back to him in her will HOWEVER, the fact that OHs nan was not of sound mind (due to her mental health problems) at the time of signing the will, made the will void. Her will is now back to as she wanted it and the house is not being left to the brother, he hasn't a leg to stand on regarding ownership of the house (if you try to con somebody who is not of sound mind, you don't stand much chance of looking like you were trying to do anything good or fair!)

OMG!  Get a grip, people.  The owner is an alcoholic.  They are never going to take the case so far as a prosecution.  I would tell him the dog ran off and keep it.  I imagine you have more than 1 of the same breed?  How can the police tell if it's his dog or not even if he does report it, which I very much doubt.

> OMG!  Get a grip, people.  The owner is an alcoholic.  They are never going to take the case so far as a prosecution.  I would tell him the dog ran off and keep it.  I imagine you have more than 1 of the same breed?  How can the police tell if it's his dog or not even if he does report it, which I very much doubt.

The OP has allready stated that a friend of the owner had mediated and relayed the point that the poilce would be contacted if the dog was not returned. So the current dogs owner allready has a witness to verify the dog belongs to him and that the dog had been 'stolen' before.

Just because a person appears to have a drink problem, (the OP states 'he has been drunk') does not give anybody the right to steal thier dog. I got drunk at the weekend, my house was a tip the following morning and I never picked up the dog poop from the garden - does that give my dogs breeder the right to steal him from me? NO! Does it make me a bad owner - NO!

The OP also states that 'carers have been watering & feeding the dog' - whos carers? Does the man have people coming in to care for the dog? If so, he is hardly neglecting it. OR does the man have people coming in to care for HIM - in which case the 'OMG' comment should be directed towards those that would steal or con a dog off a person that needs help.

I am very suprised at the lack of compassion towards a fellow human being on this thread and the underhand things people will do for thier own ends - if the DOGS welfare is the single most important thing here, the OP can help the dog by lending a hand with caring for it - to steal it is against the law and to obtain it in any underhand way - regardless of the motivation - is not somthing I could morally do myself.

These boards truly are eye-openeing!!

By being underhand or unlawfull the OP risks being completey cut out of the dogs life and will then have NO input over it's well being. So if it's the dog LONG TERM welfare that really is the most important thing, the OP needs to be reasonable and that means taking the owners feelings, wishes and personal circumstances into consideration.

Cracar, Do you know any alcoholics? I work with them. There are plenty of doctors, solicitors and other professionals who hold down full time jobs who are still alcoholics. Without knowing the individual involved you need to get a grip!

There are plenty of doctors, solicitors and other professionals who hold down full time jobs who are still alcoholics.

The problem is there are different types of alcoholics there are those who can function almost normally and then there are those who don't even know what time of day it is who are incapable of looking after themselves let alone another living, breathing creature.

Personally I would not wish my dog to be left in the care of the latter, for someone to forget to feed their dog for two days, not to clean up or walk the dog I would absolutely be on red alert, I think we can all have a certain degree of sympathy for people going through mental problems, solvent and alcoholic abuse, but I'd be darned to stand by anyone endangering my children or animals, that is where my sympathy would stop, by all means get the help needed but to be fair that is not the OP's problem or where her 'maternal' instincts lie they are with the dog she bred, she doesn't need to have sympathy for the owner, not when it is for a problem like alcoholism, that is a choice, I understand it is an addiction and hard to cope with but our OP does not have to feel sympathy for something like that.

If as with JeanSW a dog can not be cared for due to health reasons, (and no I am not counting alcoholism as an illness in this inst) an accident a marital breakup most of us breeders will happily take on a dog we bred and care for it, with no thought of taking the dog back. I've done it myself when one of my owners broke her leg.

But, I'm sorry if one of my owners became an alcoholic or drug user and was not looking after 'my' dog properly, they would not get an ounce of sympathy from me, I would feel exactly like our OP. :-)

Yes, Flora, unfortuantely I do.  I know for a fact I wouldn't leave so much as a goldfish in their care for one night so the thought of one of my pups ending up in their care is horrific.
I just figure that the situation is bad enough that the OP came on here looking for advice because she felt that the dog needed more than someone dropping in once a day to help out.  I, too, enjoy a social drink but I think the owner of this dog is beyond that!  Probably touching a nerve, I suppose, that's why I don't have much sympathy other than for the people having to 'support' the 'poor owner'.

im not writing this to anyone here im just telling it how it is ,my mum has a drink problem :( she looks after her dog very very well he is dieabetic and has to be injected twice aday she only drinks at night (i carnt believe im writeing that i hate her drinking at all :( ) and i would say she is an alcoholic, and sometimes drinks till she falls to sleep :( ,she lives alone and i worry about her so much but never about her dog because i know hes very well looked after. our family have been though alot and sadly my mum took this way to cope when my dad died it dont make her a bad person just a very unhappy person that i wish i could help more!

I think it is wonderful that your mum still cares for her dog, I feel the dog keeps your mum going which is a very good thing and her dog is looked after well. But out of interest if your mum forgot to feed him, give him his injections, didn't clean up his poo or walk him what do you think you would do then? This is what our OP is faced with.

> sadly my mum took this way to cope when my dad died it dont make her a bad person just a very unhappy person that i wish i could help more!

Ahh bless you white lilly. You are doing plenty to support her just by being there for her.

I don't think that any negative comments on this thread towards alcoholics or thier problems are as generalised or uncaring as they may have sounded, I'm sure it's just that a dogs welfare is an emotive subject - as we are all dog lovers here :)

yes i know carrington :( ,i just wanted to say that not all are nasty horrible people that have drink problems ,thats the thing i could take him because in her daughter and i know she'd be very happy for me to do so because she loves him more then anything and only wants whats good for him ,i really do feel for the OP truly i do and id be the same if it was 1 of my puppies...x

i know mastifflover we ALL care about our's and other peoples dogs ...i think because i see my mum cope with her boy ,i just see that some with drink problems can cope ,i hope you understand were im coming from ? BUT i also see the the OP can see that her puppy isnt being cared for and that is the biggst worry for her ,xx

my solicitor told me that the contracts I sold on my pups were a waste of ink and paper! Once a pup is sold you have no rights what so ever! Maybe you could offer to buy him back even at a higher price? at least hed be safe then. the rspca can get involved!

i know someone with a drink issue, only in the evening.  Its bad enough that trhe dog was frightened even with just the way they were talking to it and hid behind me.  i don't think they realised how rough they was.  After that as soon as the dog saw the bottle come out it hid behind me and cowered.

The person i know has left dogs out in the freezing cold over night, one being very elderly, lost the by the sea not realising they have let them out or fotgot to close the door.  Has had to sleep with doors wide open before,once the front door, as they'd again lost the dog.

This is their third dog and no lessons learnt, a few of us were horrified when she was given one from a breeder to have.  Its not looked after properly in terms of coat care ect.  it is loved and fed well and now does exactly as it pleases, they have no control or even recall.

I can see the OP concern, lets hope its  a glitch.  At least she's in a position to keep an eye on them and offer help.

Keep up the daily walking and maybe a little support to the person.  If you need to see what's happeneing, you need to stay close and helpful (genuinly). 

Good luck xx

I am also very suprised at the lack of compassion.  Most people do not choose to become alcoholics, yes they may choose to start drinking but the decision to keep drinking is often not a concious one.  These people are still human beings regardless and I would ask how you would feel if this was one of your family/friends that was being discussed.

That being said, if this person is not looking after (or not capable of looking after) their dog then that issue needs to be addressed.  Rather than being underhand (or doing anything illegal), as other people have said, it would be better to approach the person and offer assistance.  Ask if they would like to you to take the dog back either temporarily or permanently or if need be offer to repay them for taking the dog back.

If all else fails, it may be that the RSPCA are your only option.