I was looking through my local paper tonight and the pet section held some total surprises.  Usually the ads reflect the rest of the UK in terms of breeds offered and prices but tonight the KC Reg pups for sale were ranging from £220-£350.  It was like being in 1982 all over again :-D

Has anyone else noticed this or is dundee the only place going back in time?

Definitely isn't the case in my breed and I have to say I've been inundated with queries recently.  Was only saying the other daythat I'm shocked by the response as I thought it would have been really quiet.

From personal experiences and also from talking to quite a few other people, this year seems to be the year of time wasters. I've never known so many people to get in touch and so few to get back to me once I've replied. I lost 11 buyers before the pups were even born, and have lost count of the number of time wasters I have had since. If everyone who enquired had actually wanted a pup I would have needed about 30! As it is I am facing having to keep possibly 5 myself. Never known anything like it.

A bit like Marianne, I have had far more time wasters this year.

Two of my pups had been reserved before they were born.  Both lots cancelled due to redundancy.  Since then, I have had time wasters, and also some totally inappropriate people that I have turned down.  I don't think I have ever had to say no to so many.

They can stay here until the right folk come along.  If that means they are still here at 17 years and have no teeth, so be it.

I don't think the well bred dogs are lower in price but there are a lot of people having a one off litters from their pets and register with the KC with no health tests etc and charge less for a kc reg dog. Does it mean they are better or that they represent as a whole on what a puppy price should be, in short no iv seen an add for a litter recently and I had a double take at the parents as I wouldn't have been even able to guess at their parentage and they were meant to be a KC reg well known breed.

Not the case in well bred litters, though we are probably looking at a record low for registrations, only 19 registrations by the end of September with 10 pups registrations pending at the time of the last BRS, there were actually 0 registrations June to September!.

That would be because the breeders of well bred litters do not breed except to fulfil a demand.

Quite the opposite for me....but then my dogs would never be advertised in the local paper!

I offered the last pups, which I had available, to specific people and they snapped them up.

> I've never known so many people to get in touch and so few to get back to me once I've replied. I lost 11 buyers before the pups were even born, and have lost count of the number of time wasters I have had since.

It makes me wonder if having waiting lists is actually worthwhile. I had a waiting list of 8 for Esme's proposed litter back in the Summer and when I contacted them to say she'd missed most had either got a pup elsewhere or no longer wanted one. Not one had the decency to let me know.

I had a lot of enquiries in the spring and summer when I mated Ellie, not one phoned back in July as I'd suggested they do to see how many puppies she'd had, just as well she only had the one! :-)

Time wasters are out there in their thousands!! Really annoying people who take it to the 11th hour and then disappear. Its as if they like the idea but when it becomes an actual reality they back off. I know well bred litters that have struggled this year as well as the pet litter people in the papers. You only have to look to see the same pups going down in price week after week. Nothing seems to be selling but with so many job cuts on the horizon in the public sector which covers so very many types of jobs, can you blame people for being wary in taking extra expense on.

Think there may be a huge gap in the findings of those breeding well known and popular breeds and those who are breeding the more rare or unusual, if the latter it would be stupid to just breed and hope that suitable homes became available and unsuitable ones would lead to loads of returns or hand ons. Bad enough when you do not know if a mating will lead to 0 pups or 10 and if you have "spares" you have to advertise and then you have the added problem with impulse purchasers and those who are oblivious to your explaining the difficulties they may encounter.

It is worrying that there are so few of my breed being bred but that is much better than loads in rescue, the sad thing is those that are in rescue are more often than not the result of puppy farmers in Eire and a certain puppy warehouse in the north west.

Agree. If you have a breed that is popular at the moment, one that the PF and BYB have got hold of, then yes, you  will find your market flooded and puppies harder to sell.
I work with the public and their dogs and most of them have got their dogs from local papers, internet free sites etc.  This is where  Joe Public look for dogs and this is exactly where the BYB advertise.The market is flooded for the current must have dog. Rarer breeds are relatively safe in the hands of their breeders at the moment.

Think there may be a huge gap in the findings of those breeding well known and popular breeds and those who are breeding the more rare or unusual, if the latter it would be stupid to just breed and hope that suitable homes became available and unsuitable ones would lead to loads of returns or hand ons.

Indeed -and my breed is rather demanding, not a pet for the average owner. Which is why I wouldn't consider doing a mating unless I had a waiting list, and only have a litter every 2 years. So when I lost 11 of 12 buyers waiting this time -well. :( Terrified is not a word to describe how I feel, because this breed demands so much as regards training and socialisation that even keeping two pups is a HUGE problem. Depending on how this turns out for me, I may never breed another litter again of this breed. My other breed I will cheerfully mate without anyone waiting as they are typical pets, have small litters, and even if I had to keep an entire litter (unlikely) it would be perfectly possible.

I've had to resort to advertising absolutely everywhere this time, including in all the places I'd never normally touch with a bargepole. I haven't had any choice, figured I will just have to vet potential buyers extra carefully. But as it happens, I've not really had many enquiries from those places anyway.

It's really interesting to read people's opinions of, let's say, certain websites, where puppies are advertised.

I really believe that reputable breeders should use these sites if they have one or two puppies that are available. My dog sired a lovely litter recently and I helped with homing the puppies. The owner of the bitch had the same situation as you, Marianne and we had a bigger litter than we had anticipated as well, so we had super puppies that needed homes. We put a listing on the Kennel Club's puppy list - only got one enquiry and that was someone who just wanted to know the price (he then advertised his own litter there!). I put an ad up on an internet site, but I worded it very carefully, giving details of health test results, Kennel Club Good Citizen passes, show results and club membership, length of time of experience with the breed etc. The people who got in touch were lovely and they had noticed the difference between my ad and other ads of the sort "lovely puppies, we own both parents, give us the money!!"

A lot of people will use the internet to look for a puppy, and if they can see the difference in the ads of decent breeders and, let's say, puppy producers, then hopefully, they will go in the right direction.

Thoughts??

A lot of people will use the internet to look for a puppy, and if they can see the difference in the ads of decent breeders and, let's say, puppy producers, then hopefully, they will go in the right direction.

That's what I was thinking and my ads do tell a lot including hip scores and eye tests etc, details of what parents, previous pups from same mum, grandparents etc have done both at shows and in a working capacity (and this has added up to quite a lot), I say pups are reared indoors, get used to cats etc -but sometimes I get the impression it all has the opposite effect. You know "Oh it must be one of those awful show people, no wonder the dogs have had their hips and eyes checked, we all know show people have sick dogs -I'll go for the ad where the parents are family pets, not shown and very healthy".

I wish you the best of luck, Marianne. As I said, we had some lovely people and they've been great at keeping in touch and sending pics so we can see how my boy's first babies are doing :)

> It makes me wonder if having waiting lists is actually worthwhile.

This is why at each stage I write to people on my list. 

For example when bitch comes in season I write for people to confirm their continued interest in staying on my waiting list, those who reply stay on.

Then when bitch mated same thing,

Then when pregnancy confirmed,

Then when litter born, those still left will be contacted in the order they booked, to tell them if there is a pup for them, (if not will ring round and find out if anyone else has a pup left or get them onto someone elses's waiting list) and if they are still on board a £50 deposit is required, which will only be refunded if for some reason I cannot let them have a puppy (a pup could die etc).

This works well for me, give the people an easy get out without actually having to tell me through embarrassment etc.

> I really believe that reputable breeders should use these sites if they have one or two puppies that are available..........> Thoughts??

I'm with you, the general public need to have the opportunity to more easily find decent breeders and litters, and we need to advertise (though often we don't need to) where they are likely to look. 

The BYB and Puppy Farmers wouldn't' use this medium if it didn't get results (sales).

I also do this Barbara - you can certainly tell the ones who are more keen than others. 

Marianne - I think part of the problem is the amount of 'working' line Malinois currently being bred and advertised there seems to have been a huge increase in this variety and I don't think demand ( or the number of suitable homes ) has kept pace - good luck -it seems a real shame to have a well bred litter remaining unsold when thee are so many poorly bred ones around .

It's different in Groenendael - I'm thinking about mating my French bitch again early next year and have had quite a bit of interest already  and I know that other Groen breeders have sold their pups with little problem ..but then we only have show bred Groens available in this country !

yvonne

Its funny re the wording of adverts. When I had to resort to those sites, my initial advert went in as I would normally advertise, parents very successful show dogs, hip scores noted, eye tests compete, fully vacinated, already microchipped, totally socialised etc. Not a whisper. So I dumbed the whole thing down,  put in minumum info,left out what to me is the important stuff (health checks etc) and lo and behold, the contacts came in at a steady pace.
You do have weed through people with extra vigilance because a lot of the replys are from utter fools but there are some very nice people looking through these sites, people who would very probably go on your list in the first place.
The only thing I have noticed is that a lot of people on there are looking for cheaper dogs, some will resort to bartering. Which poses another question, if you had a few large breed pups that you couldn't sell, would you sell them cheaper than their siblings who have left you.

the point is you only want the good enquiries so if the good info puts off the idiots good.

I found in the past that when I didn't put the price and the health results etc I got mostly unsuitable enquiries, people wanting a bargain and to 'haggle' (shudder) but once I put the stuff that is important to me, and I want to be important to new owners, I got a better calibre of enquiry. 

Not as good as the more knowledgeable coming through research,b but better than the numpties.

It's not the number of enquiries but quality of potential owners that is important.

>some will resort to bartering. Which poses another question, if you had a few large breed pups that you couldn't sell, would you sell them cheaper than their siblings who have left you.

No the price is the price that I have thought fair for the quality and work put into raising the puppies. 

We used these sites to advertise as well as the kc and here, put show wins, health tests etc and a nice photo, what's weird is that many thought that the photo wasn't real, Weird or what?

We did get some daft people but the right people found us in the end with many pulling out of other litters as they realized that health tests and temperaments were important. Though I did find lots of people contacting me just for info.

To be honest I think of the 11 only 1 was through the other sites as we turned lots of people away.

> It's really interesting to read people's opinions of, let's say, certain websites, where puppies are advertised

I think if my little bitches, on the sofa with me now, could talk...they would be mighty unhappy to have their puppies standing side by side with all the thousands of poor little bitches in the 'puppy manufacturing business'.

I had yet another call this morning from someone who described the conditions her pup was reared in, the state of health it was in and the callous nature of the 'breeder'. I stopped her and asked if was aquired from a website called *diddly squatpupz* or the like..... and she "Oh how did you know?
I had to save it and nearly took her sister too"..............

" Didnt you consider that you were condeming their poor mother to their own personal life long treadmill?" I asked..........

As a spokes person for my bitches (and me) ..WE would NOT want to be associated with or support the main outlet of Manufactured puppies.

Yvonne -yes, this is a huge problem. Doesn't help that so few "real" working people (I mean professionals like the police etc) will consider show lines -despite the fact that many DO work and do just fine. Two from my last litter are working as security dogs with one about to increase his sniffer training to become a cadaver dog -from two show parents which I think says a lot. Although I do acknowledge there are MORE working bred dogs with the right ability and of course this is where the problem lies with the professionals -but for those that don't need the dog to earn a living, it shouldn't need to matter. Sometimes I feel like giving up as yes, the market is flooded -but then again, if the few of us who have the show lines, the original UK lines, (or should that be, those of us that have the dogs that BOTH have the right looks and the brains!) stopped breeding then there would only be working lines left and the breed would change its entire look for ever.

> I had yet another call this morning from someone who described the conditions her pup was reared in, the state of health it was in and the callous nature of the 'breeder'. I stopped her and asked if was aquired from a website called *diddly squatpupz* or the like..... and she "Oh how did you know?
> I had to save it and nearly took her sister too"..............
>
> " Didnt you consider that you were condeming their poor mother to their own personal life long treadmill?" I asked.......... <IMG alt=mad src="/images/mad.gif">
>
>

Sadly many people who don't have alot of knowledge of puppy farms feel like they are "saving" these puppies from the puppy farms rather than the truth which is condemming all the other dogs by lining their pockets :-(

(Reply to Toolz)

But playing Devil's Advocate, Toolz, perhaps if the lady had seen a carefully worded ad from a caring and responsible breeder, maybe she wouldn't have gone to that "breeder" in the first place and then wouldn't have fallen in the "I want to save this puppy" trap?

i think this next statement is an awful thing to say

it seems a real shame to have a well bred litter remaining unsold when thee are so many poorly bred ones around

just because some pups are bred to work not show it doesnt mean that they are bred poorly.

i also dont like the following

if the few of us who have the show lines, the original UK lines, (or should that be, those of us that have the dogs that BOTH have the right looks and the brains!) stopped breeding then there would only be working lines left and the breed would change its entire look for ever.

the belgian malinois was bred to work, the show people have given the show strain that you talk of that look, as show people breed for looks and working people breed for work they dont care how the dog looks as long as it can do the job intended, so making out that the show look is the right look is silly because they werent created as a show breed

rant over

i think this next statement is an awful thing to say

it seems a real shame to have a well bred litter remaining unsold when thee are so many poorly bred ones around

just because some pups are bred to work not show it doesnt mean that they are bred poorly.

Hayley are you suggesting that working dogs are badly bred, surely not. Was the original poster I don't know but doubt it.

> i think this next statement is an awful thing to say
>
> it seems a real shame to have a well bred litter remaining unsold when thee are so many poorly bred ones around

Hayley hang on!!  A well bred litter for what ever its purpose is exactly what we are all hoping to achieve on here and other places. A poorly bred litter is one done without health tests, without conforming to what the breed standard or at least in a sense a working standard is and what about socialisation, temperament, place where the puppies are raised? Puppy Farmers are churning out poorly bred litters and this is a huge part of what Marianne is talking about as she is very active on her thoughts on these people, we all wish to stop them.
What is wrong with striving to get the best you can and do your best? Nothing as any dog deserves to have a great life and without the right start is going to struggle on many aspects.

What you don't realise is that what Marianne breeds can also do the job too, not sure if you've looked at her website at all? Just because they are show dogs doesn't mean they aren't capable of working or anything else which the owners may put their hands to.

I feel your mind is rather closed about the show world and that the ability many of these dogs actually have beyond the show ring..

the belgian malinois was bred to work, the show people have given the show strain that you talk of that look, as show people breed for looks and working people breed for work they dont care how the dog looks as long as it can do the job intended, so making out that the show look is the right look is silly because they werent created as a show breed

Point number 1, a working dog MUST be healthy to be able to work -so why on earth do the majority of the working breeders in this breed (the majority, some do) not hip score and eye test?
Point number 2 -the working Malinois are MORE removed from the original look, you only need to look at old pictures to see that. The original dogs did not have yellow eyes, huge ears, short coats like Boxers and backs as long as Dachshunds.........and believe me, a lot of the working ones DO. They were also the size of the show dogs, not as big as today's working dog.
Point number 3 -the breed is NOT called Belgian Malinois unless you live in America.

And yes, I prefer to have a dual purpose dog. That's my aim for sure. Interestingly the first police dog Malinois in the UK was a show dog -had actually BEEN shown as well. The first police dog Malinois in Sweden was from the very same show kennel. I could go on with a lot more examples but will just give a few. For instance if you watched "Send in the dogs" on TV, the first series in 2008, there was one episode that heavily featured a Malinois called Jack. He is a show bred dog, litter brother of the first UK CC winner in the breed. The brother (now a Champion) is himself the father of 2 police dogs and the grandfather of another 8, with a further 12 just starting their police training now.

> What you don't realise is that what Marianne breeds can also do the job too, not sure if you've looked at her website at all? Just because they are show dogs doesn't mean they aren't capable of working or anything else which the owners may put their hands to.

And the other side of the coin is that working-bred Malinois are rarely 'fit for purpose' as companions. While the few show breeders breed responsibly, many working-bred ones end up in rescue (and breed rescue!) because they are far too much for many people to handle. So not only are some of the working line breeders breeding too many to place within working homes, but are not homing their puppies responsibly in the first place. A Belgian Shepherd of any kind in rescue is fairly uncommon - but the number of working-bred Malis in mainstream rescue centres is growing fast.

> A poorly bred litter is one done without health tests, without conforming to what the breed standard or at least in a sense a working standard

Suejaw. Since joining the forum I understand that members are very much pursuing this but does breed standard neccessarily mean a healthy dog? Once an active, if not fast but with the endurance to keep going,  the large majority of our breed is currently far from fit or healthy.

Hi Lacy,

Some breeds are the exception and you've pointed out your breed, which is likely to be in big trouble if some breeders carry on as they are? I didn't really want to name and shame any breed and get myself into trouble with those who maybe have them :-)
A new revised standard was put in place for most breeds, so really exaggeration really shouldn't be tolerated and this needs to start with breeders, but judges have a whole heap of explaining to do!!

Breed standard can be interpreted in many ways, hence why in some breeds there is a lot of differences between what the breeders are producing. ALL breeders need to strive for healthy dogs which is where the fit for function comes into play, which is a huge shame when some breeders are ignoring all the signs in their lines that there is a problem...:-(

> But playing Devil's Advocate, Toolz, perhaps if the lady had seen a carefully worded ad from a caring and responsible breeder, maybe she wouldn't have gone to that "breeder" in the first place and then wouldn't have fallen in the "I want to save this puppy" trap?

The lady paid £200 for this little puppy after trawling through many hundreds of ads, many repeatedly updated to always keep theirs at the top of the list.
No I dont want to buy into this mass selling machine and all it stands for.

If I ever got into the position I felt it neccessary to use such a cattle market, I'd know I was breeding too many puppies.

If I ever got into the position I felt it neccessary to use such a cattle market, I'd know I was breeding too many puppies.

Did you read my explanation of what happened to me and why I had to resort to it.........? I breed one litter every 2 years, that's all. Mine's not a breed where you can keep more than one and have the dogs still turn out normal -if I have to keep 5 they will all end up with major problems.

> after trawling through many hundreds of ads, many repeatedly updated to always keep theirs at the top of the list

I'd like to see breed clubs 'advertising' on these sites to direct people to good infomation about their breed, how to choose a breeder, what health tests to expect etc

I know that many people will research and find the breed clubs themselves but if you google a breed, the sales sites are sadly near the top of the page and some people may not realise quite what they are looking at.  Unfortunately until you've met some really good breeders it's harder for 'new-to-dogs' people to spot the duff ones

> Did you read my explanation of what happened to me and why I had to resort to it.........?

No sorry Marrianne I didnt, just skimmed.

I have heard of another litter of your variety not selling so people must get desperate.Even if you resorted to using the site in an emergency, it must have gone against the grain.

My comments all sprung from the deeply depressing page after page of "£200 Cavaliers, both parents can be seen, front lined, bag of food."
Thousands of puppies of just this breed with not a mention of MRI scanning or MVD, so not only are these poor little bitches getting run into the ground, statistically, many will be in pain too.

Yes I fully understand your point about cavaliers. The point with my litter was, I lost 11 of my 12 buyers. :(

But Toolz - perhaps if more responsible breeders advertised on this site, putting up information about the essential health tests for their breeds, it would serve to help to educate the general public (well, those who wish to be educated!). So many people just don't know how to go about buying a puppy. In the old days, they would have had to contact the Kennel Club to find a breed club and then they would have been given some information and have been pointed in the right general direction. Nowadays people are just so used to googling for what they want, they have no idea what they could be letting themselves in for :(

I agree we need the good breeders to be more of a presence so that people searching have a choice and can see there is something other than the badly breed litter.

That is my point.  Must say I haven't advertised actual puppies on this or similar sites, but do have a breeder listing, as do most breeders in my breed, but that works because there are few litters of our breed available (often the only listings are for Scam non existent pups or for BYB non KC litters).

The general publics impression of breeders as a whole is that we are at best a necessary evil, and at worst simply money grabbing uncaring people, but if they want a puppy they have to deal with us.

I am always so happy when someone contacts me for breed info and leads on getting a well bred puppy, and they have usually found me via breeder listings.

Marianne. I am sorry that you have had so many time wasters with your litter when you have done all & more for them. To make a general point, I believe the vast majority of people have little sence of anythings 'worth', we live in a 'buy one get one free' society and if we don't like it we bin it. This attitude applies to dog ownership &  has been discussed here before and as much as you attempt to educate people (who think they know best anyway)  as to the relevant questions, checks and health issues before buying a pup, it is too much like hard work (& sorry, but do they realy care anyway?) when they can get the same elsewhere for a third of the price. Especialy in the present economic climate were if a saving (in their mind) can be made they'll take it with little thought of the outcome.

>Especialy in the present economic climate were if a saving (in their mind) can be made they'll take it with little thought of the outcome.

It's interesting though that many people will go out of their way to source ethically farmed food and will not buy products produced in sweat shops BUT will take a puppy from anyone!

Perhaps Jamie Oliver and Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall can do for puppy farms what they did for chickens...

Perhaps Jamie Oliver and Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall can do for puppy farms what they did for chickens...

Except Jamie does not like dogs and in one episode Hugh deliberately bred a crossbred litter with no health testing done.........so not even they get it.

> interesting though that many people will go out of their way to source ethically farmed food and will not buy products produced in sweat shops BUT will take a puppy from anyone!
>

Yes I agree and although we are told food is comparitively inexpensive to years ago, it too is treated as disposable with vast amounts just thrown away each week. It has also become a 'status purchase', I'm not saying that ethically farmed food is not better (it certainly is for livestock and the environment) but many seem to have lost the sence of value in the amount and what they buy each week.

Marianne

There was someone enquirying on agilitynet for your breed.  I think that your name was mentioned but I do not know if your details were given.

I can post for you if you would like.

They were initially asking for info so may have changed their mind.

h

Thanks Helen-Jane -I do actually have an ad on agility net but obviously a lot more is explained on my website which is in my profile here.

At a local dealer the puppies are more expensive than the average puppy advertised on the kennel club site and various other places. The reason they get away with it is that you can buy with a credit card. I used to live just a few miles away and had associates that worked for them. I know the turnover was huge as while out riding the ponies we used to meet people asking for directions.

The less you're in it for money, the less likely you are to be constantly updating and getting your pseudo health ads up on top -where the impulse buyer looks.
No these sites are taylor made for those who's first priority is to make money.

Their pups are cheaper almost without exception....but Ive never seen a mating yet which conforms to the important health protocol - in my breed - surely one of the most abused and disposible.

They tell the customer what they want to hear
their dogs have no health problems.....yeah right!
they are in it for profit - so know just how to manipulate the ads and the system.

Then there's the matter of my mothers advice " be careful of the company you keep"