Hi all
Our lovely puppies are now 5 weeks old and they all have new homes ready and waiting for them when they leave here in a few weeks. However, one of the girls is due to stay here and one is due to go to another show home, and I wondered if you could give me some advice. Both girls are very promising and look showable, but one of them is, I think, slightly better generally but has poorer pigment (her nose is slightly mottled black-dark brown, rather than all black which is rare but highly prized in the breed). However, the other one is also very good generally, has better pigment, but also has 'show attitude' (she is also a very sweet-natured girl) and when she stands she catches the eye more. Do I go with my instinct, which is to take the 'show-girl' as pick, or go with the slightly better girl and pray?

wow can you tell at such a young age? ive never been able to tell till around 12weeks ,but if it was me id got with my gut feeling :)

I am having the same problem with my pups! now 6 weeks old and the other 5 have homes but they are all waiting on my decision first. I think its hard to chose at this age but i keep returning my eye to one in particular. Am going to get another breeder to cast eye over them for me.

I would go with the girl that draws your eye and gut feeling, unless you have someone else for a second opinion - but remember we all see different things so what might be your best girl might not be someone elses.

Yes I too would go with your gut instinct. When my bitch had a litter 1 of the pups stood out cos she was a bossy pushy little one and I really wanted 1 with attitude to show as Mum was very laid back. However several people thought 1 of the other pups was better, but she didnt have enough oomph. Dont know if that makes any sense.
Anyway I went with my instinct and 2 years down the line the 1 that I kept has done a lot of winning and i am happy with my choice, after all I have to live with her.!
Ps The other puppy wins each time but owing to geographical reasons is shown sparingly.

Had simialr problems in the past .. two lovely pups with different attributes. Its a nice position to be in even if you don't think so now .. in the end I went with the one that it would "break my heart " to let go. Never once regretted my choice.
K

I would ask the advice of someone experienced in the lines behind the dog and bitch that you've used.  Different lines develop in different ways.  Some give indication at 6 weeks of what they will look like as an adult.  Other go though all sorts of changes until they mature. 

At five weeks I would know which were in with a shout as regards having that extra quality, but could not make a final choice until around 7 weeks.  Older breeders always liked to choose at 6 weeks, but I find that often a slower puppy you might discard at that age comes on in that extra week.

For me after 9 weeks every puppy starts to do it's won thing growth/development wise and after 10 weeks I wouldn't' like to choose a pup I hadn't watched from the start.

In the USA in my breed a lot of breeders don't choose until 10 or 12 weeks, and I don't know how they do it as the proportions are so different to the finished adult in my view.

I've got some breeder friends who will help out with a second opinion, just wondered what everyone else does, as I'm sure it must have happened to most breeders! Can't tell at this stage exactly what they'll turn out like, but I have a gut instinct that one girl will be marginally better than the other, but that the one I like is the one who will turn out to do better in the ring.

Just other breeders wouldn't be good enough for me. :(  Before i knew my line I would ask the stud dog owner.  Until I knew what I was looking for, I would always use a stud dog belonging to an experienced breeder who would not only know their line, but what was behind my bitches too.
I learned over a number of years to know which ones stood the best chance as adults, but it takes time and experience - very different to judging adults! :)

> I really wanted 1 with attitude to show as Mum was very laid back.

I know what you mean. Luckily, the mother is a brilliant show girl but really laid back in the house and I was really hoping for a daughter of hers with the same attitude. The one I like is mainly very chilled, a bit of a thinker, while the other is a little bit naughty but not as confident, but does have a head to die for! Still, I'm learning a lot of patience!

I find that temperament often changes once the rest of the litter have gone.  A very confident puppy can keep some of the others down so that they appear to be not as confident.  Once Bully Boy goes to his new home, quieter ones can bloom and change completely. :)
When I'm choosing, both for myself and their new homes, I try to look each puppt seperately for quite a long period of time, and you can see their temperaments changing when they are on their own. :)

> Just other breeders wouldn't be good enough for me. :-(  Before i knew my line I would ask the stud dog owner.  Until I knew what I was looking for, I would always use a stud dog belonging to an experienced breeder who would not only know their line, but what was behind my bitches too.
> I learned over a number of years to know which ones stood the best chance as adults, but it takes time and experience - very different to judging adults! :-)

'Other breeders' wasn't possibly as precise as I could have been, but didn't realise I'd have to list who they are. Firstly, please don't assume that I've just asked my friends next door. I have a fairly rare breed and there aren't that many breeders in the country, we all know each other and I value their opinions, but there are two distinct types so it wouldn't make sense to ask a breeder who breeds a different type to me, would it? And I know exactly what is behind the stud dog and the bitch as I have been planning this for years, watched other litters grow up and go in the ring, and have asked as many questions as I could. What I didn't ask was how to tell which one was better, but whether to go with the one that probably isn't quite as good as the other one but has more of a show attitude. Thank you for your opinion, but you didn't actually answer my question.

Thank you for your opinion, but you didn't actually answer my question.
Then nobody on here who doesn't know the lines and how they develop behind dam and sire will be able to answer your question either!

> Then nobody on here who doesn't know the lines and how they develop behind dam and sire will be able to answer your question either!

Quite agree, also not knowing the breed makes a huge difference. For example in borzois and silkens ring presence doesn't mean that much as you don't want a dog dancing round with it's tail up. I'd far rather have a correct dog who stood and stared into the distance dreaming of hunting bunnies. On the other hand in afghans you really want a dog with a 'look at me' attitude and this attitude can often win over more correct exhibits.

> Then nobody on here who doesn't know the lines and how they develop behind dam and sire will be able to answer your question either!

Ok, let's put it in very simple terms - would a breeder generally prefer to go with a dog that was all-round excellent with one small fault but without that 'oomph' or one that didn't have quite such excellence but has the oomph? Since 'oomph' or 'show attitude' as I put it can't actually be defined, it doesn't matter a damn whether you know the dam and sire's lines or pedigrees.

Sorry, but I'm not quite stupid enough to ask you which of my puppies you would keep, given that you're not breed specialists and only have my word that it's not next door's crossbreed who got in and had his way with my girl and again only my word that they don't all have epilepsy or hip dysplasia from not researching breed lines carefully. I simply wanted to know, out of interest, how much the 'oomph' sways people?
Thanks to those of you who have answered with your experiences and thank you to everyone who felt like picking an argument and didn't read (understand?) the question I was asking.

>one that didn't have quite such excellence but has the oomph?

I've only ever shown very lightly (and never bred any of my dogs) so am not particularly experienced but that is the one I would go for. You could have a perfect specimen but if it looks like a sack of spuds having a miserable time in the ring then you probably aren't going to get very far. A dog having "spirit" counts for a lot in my observation.

I tend to think that a dog on it's toes that has oomph has the edge over
perhaps the dog that is slightly ahead in breed correctness but doesn't have
the oomph or look at me attitude..

That said you have to know how to harness the oomph...as I had a girl
that had oodles of oomph got down to the final 4 for a CC, but we did
throw away lots of placings as she could be such a handful at times,
that said she never had an off day in the ring and often people said
that they wished they could have even a drop of my girls oomph...

As I said in my previous posts, a lot depends on the breed. For example in a lot of sighthounds 'oomph' isn't important or even wanted. In other breeds it's very important.

> thank you to everyone who felt like picking an argument

I think you're being overly sensitive. I've read through the entire post and can't see anyone picking an argument, apart from you :-)

>'Other breeders' wasn't possibly as precise as I could have been
>I have a fairly rare breed and there aren't that many breeders in the country, we all know each other and I value their opinions

Parrot1974, so you meant people with the same breed as you and with knowledge of the lines used?  I think that was the point that WestCoast actually meant :)

I don't breed but I can see how important it is to seek advice and opinion from a number of sources when choosing a puppy.  Not just for conformation or 'type' but also to act as a sounding board for your own thoughts and opinions.  Many critical decisions are made with assistance.  I was recently in the position of being allowed pick boy from a litter and whilst I trust my breeder completely it was still helpful (and reassuring) to be able to discuss the decisions with others, if only to check my own thinking.  It's hard to choose a puppy after only a few visits so the breeders knowledge of living with these pups is vital too.  When choosing a puppy to keep I can imagine that sometimes a pup just 'speaks' to you and it's important to listen!  :)

I've not bred dogs, but have bred & shown other animals for many years and have sometimes found myself in similar positions.

Firstly, what were the considerations for choosing the stud dog you did, what were you looking to improve upon with this litter? Have you achieved it in either or both of these girls? Many breeders are thinking ahead to the generations to come when choosing a particular mating not just this one, so if you were thinking that way and one of the pups fulfills your original ideals, then choose that one.

You say a show home is lined up for the other anyway and both may be showable, If you think one is more showable than the other, then if the other home can get her to more shows than you, why not let her go? Can you take the dog all the way to the top if it looks it could go that way? Would that show dog be able to offer the same to future generations for breeding, and vice versa? What if the one you kept turned out later to be not suitable for showing in some way? Showing is the icing on the cake really; what matters more are the dogs that have done, and go on to, produce the winners...who may not be ideal show specimens themselves.

I had a litter back in April and at 8 weeks of age was still struggling with which puppy to keep. One of the pups was a very look at me pup and the 2nd pick was quiet but very much more my type and so like her mum. However the first pup just had something I didnt know what but everytime I looked down the garden or in the pen it was the first pup who caught my eye. She is shorter in the body than I usually go for and much lighter yellow than I wanted but she was quite the diva.
Whichever I kept, the other was going to a show home anyway but I found it so hard to make my decision and was still stuggling on the day the other breeder came to collect.
In the end I went for the one who was a little different to what I wanted.....she is very similar to her grandmother on the sires side. I decided to go for this puppy even though the sister was very much my type and even though I couldn't put my finger on why she seemed so special.

6 months on I am not disappointed and definately would still stick with my choice. Her sister is already Crufts qualified and Diva has yet to go in the ring but I have high hopes for her. I went with my gut feeling and will never regret it whether she gets placed or not.

We have just made a similar decision between two bitches in our recent litter. For us, the smallest girl who caught my eye the minute she was born, continued to wow the whole family with her lovely disposition, gorgeous looks and good proportions. However, there was another bitch pup who was an eyecatcher too, beautifully put together, moved like a dream, excellent bone and coat, but was a very strong character & whenever the play got a little too rough, she was always in the middle of the action!

I agonised over which to choose, as it had always been between these two, different "experts" would choose a different pup, so in the end my husband was cross with me because those waiting for their pick (4 bitches in all) were having to wait and he didn't understand why I couldn't choose!

My head was saying the strong bitch, but my heart was saying the sweetheart!

So we chose the sweetheart! She never once put a foot wrong when with the litter, always in the thick of it, but not leading the charge, never making a fuss, but had ants in her pants whenever I tried to stack her...! I look at her every day (now 11 weeks old) and can't imagine choosing the other pup over her, I think she was meant to stay with us, she has fitted in so very well, and I feel she will have the right amount of personality for the show ring. We love her to bits, and the lady who has the other bitch desperately wanted her too, so she was so pleased!

So I would go with your gut instinct, choose the one you think will fit in best in your household, it sounds like both bitches are of excellent quality, albeit different from each other. Can you see in either pup what you are trying to achieve with the mating?

Such a difficult decision!!

Good luck

I had a litter of 3 pups last year, and really fell for the type of the "quiet" bitch in the litter.

Her head was everything I wanted, but she always stayed at the back, and I was concerned about her confidence.  However, the type won, and I kept her.

Once her two siblings went, she came on like a dream, and her personality developed.  I'm glad I went with my first opinion.

My view would be opposite, as I would expect all puppies to be of correct breed temperament, the most correct puppy with the best breed points has to be your keeper. 

But then I would expect a judge to recognise quality over flash in the breed ring, and for me that is where any winning counts, the groups etc are just a bit of fun or icing on the cake, and great 'show dogs' (by which I mean showmanship and breed type in equal measure) are rare.

Also as a breeder you need to consider which point you need to improve in your own dn the breeds gene pool, and which of the pups is the best in these areas that are weak.

> Firstly, what were the considerations for choosing the stud dog you did, what were you looking to improve upon with this litter? Have you achieved it in either or both of these girls? Many breeders are thinking ahead to the generations to come when choosing a particular mating not just this one, so if you were thinking that way and one of the pups fulfills your original ideals, then choose that one.
>
>

Very important and prime point.

Thank you very much for all your help. Probably was a little over-sensitive last night so sorry WestCoast, but it's probably because I have planned this for so long. It's one of those things that seems very easy, theoretically, but much more difficult to choose in real life.
I was aiming to introduce a better head into the lines and it seems to have worked, but am going to be doing a lot of analysis of movement and temperament over the next couple of weeks.

Have you read and also watched Tricks of The Trade by Pat Hastings. This book is brilliant in helping evaluate puppies. I've been lending mine to friends with litters at the moment, the actual evaluation needs to be done by someone not close to the litter or anyone who is due to have a pup.

I've never had a litter but adding my thoughts on choosing a pup from a litter. I'd personally want a pup which was most correct in construction and also meeting the breed standard, there is no point having something which is introducing a fault or less correctness to a line. Also having a pup which is too full on or too timid, for me are not what i'd want, I like middle of the road personalities, easier to live with.
From watching DogWorld TV the judges said they would rather have a total correct dog with less oomph for BOB than a dog which is either exaggerated or less correct but has real showmanship. They said showmanship should only really come into it at the group stages.
From what a top handler in this country said to me is that you can improve your dog by the right handling techniques, so if you feel that there is a little lack lustre there are tricks and tips to give your dog more of a sparkle!! :-)
Have you taken the girl with less oomph away from her litter mates for a few hours to see how she is? You may find she finds her own feet if the other one is what I call a bossy bitch. Also thinking about your others dogs, how the temperaments compliment each other.

I had this dilema earlier this year too and learned a valuable lesson (for me- may not be the same for you)
The lesson for me was don't pick quickly- Is the other show home willing to wait? If so run the best two on for as long as you can and watch the changes. As puppy can't go in the ring till 6 months anyway are they willing to wait?
I know it's not a precise answer but in my case I made the wrong choice so spent  a long time planning, a sire now abroad, the work of the litter and no suitable puppy at the end of it. A hard lesson but learned now- good luck with your decision

There are several points here:

6 weeks is very early to make decisions on and although I can decide at that age which are definately going I would never decide which to keep.

Gut instinct only works if you are good at picking puppies.

The 'one small point' might mean the world in some breeds and very little in others so..... yet again... breed specific information....so that is where to look for any advice I would have thought.

Showmanship can carry, an otherwise mediocre dog, to many wins but it will pass on not just it's ring presence but it's mediocrity!