http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/mediacentre/newsreleases/pr10leedsfosterpuppiesappeal.aspx

Hope it is ok to put this link on here, dogtrust are happy for people to cross post as they are desperately looking for help with this abandoned litter in the Leeds area.

I have to say, as they look like another litter of Staffie crosses, they would be best off putting them to sleep and not even try to rear them -there are thousands upon thousands of already adult dogs of this type needing homes, why create more? The puppies won't suffer, it will just be their poor mother and she has already lost them. :(

I agree Marianne

I couldn't agree with you more Marianne. :(

has heart breaking has it is i agree too :(

I'm another in agreement - sadly :(

Having spent at my local rescue, I'm afraid that I feel the same is appropriate for the long term rescue dogs too. 
A kennel with well meaning staff who have little time to spend with each dog is no good for any dog long term.  Most of the dogs that I've come in contact with have had problems, mainly due to lack of training.  But these have just escalated the longer that they are in kennels, meaning that they are really only suitable for very experienced homes, not your average pet owner with 2 children, who comes along thinking that they'd like to rescue an unwanted dog! :(
The few well balanced and trained dogs that come in are quickly and easily homed with no problem but that's a very small percentage. :)
There are times when the staff are so desperate that they let dogs go to unsuitables homes and the dogs are back within a few weeks with a worse attitude than they had before because they are further confused. :(
We cannot continue with this 'we must keep all healthy dogs alive' attitude because the situation is getting worse every year and dogs are suffering. :(

But very few vets will put puppys down. A friend of mine rescued a bitch who turned out to be pregnant and gave birth to 7 crossbreed puppies. My friend wanted to reduce the numbers to 1 or 2 but none of the local vets would put the puppies down even though the mum had an uncertain temperament. She did eventually find a vet quite a long way from home who would do it but even then was put under a lot of pressure to let the vets find someone to handrear the puppies which she refused.

how can people say that it wasnt the puppies fault they neva asked to be born. i no its sad and there are many dogs in centers but i cant say that you sud put them to sleep

I find also the idea of puting them to sleep heart breaking, but with so many dogs in rescue I have to agree that sometimes it is the better option. A visit to the local rescue is awful, the few times I have visited 99% are Staffie X's with large powerful breeds all looking for homes with experienced owners with no children or other dogs. So why add to their numbers.

I DO not agree with putting these puppies to sleep, most certainly not.  I have been involved with rescue for many many years, having fostered, home checked and volunteer walking these poor creatures who find themselves abandoned:(  Yes many ,many rescues are full to the brim  I understand that, but they are living breathing creatures who deserve a chance to grow..... they are in the best place, and hopefully fosters can be found for these babies, where they will thrive under the foster careres who I may add to a wonderful job in not only raising these babies but who are the best people to assist the rescues in finding new homes, their input is second to none!

Debsx

how can people say that it wasnt the puppies fault they neva asked to be born

Eh? Who said anything at all about anyone's FAULT? The fault lies with the person who bred them of course. We're being practical here.What's best, being put to sleep painlessly at birth, or ending up either spending years in kennels or being rehomed to unsuitable homes and being put to sleep a couple of years down the line?  There ARE fates worse than death, sadly. Especially for Staffies and Staffie crosses.

but they are living breathing creatures who deserve a chance to grow.....

Why? Wild rats are living, breathing creatures as well, should they also all be saved? I don't see the logic I'm afraid -it's just human emotion and not practical.  Being abandoned at birth there isn't even any way of knowing the temperaments of the parents of these pups -these could turn out to be the next dogs in the news when another child is killed because an irresponsible person has got hold of one of the dogs. They could even grow up to be Pit Bull types and end up being seized under the DDA just because of the way they look -there is no way of knowing. Obviously Dogs Trust do home checks unlike council stray kennels (although I lost ALL respect for them as a charity after the way they dealt with Crufts, and will never, ever support them again) but there are no guarantees. Better to concentrate efforts and money on finding homes for the dogs that already are adult or pups old enough to manage without bottle feeding.

My first thoughts when I saw these on the TV this morning was, what if they then turn out to be "of pitbull type". Does that mean they would then be put to sleep anyway?

We cannot continue with this 'we must keep all healthy dogs alive' attitude because the situation is getting worse every year and dogs are suffering. :-(

I agree and a charity that says it never puts a healthy dog down does not get my respect or donations. It's well meaning but misguided.

biffsmum -yes if they were determined to be of the type then they couldn't legally be sold or given away but would have to either be kept by Dogs Trust for ever or put to sleep.

Many of us are also involved with rescue and also know that the most important thing is a dogs welfare.

In this situation there is no knowledge of the puppies parents and so what potential health and temperament issue could they potentail have. There are so many dogs that have spent months even years in rescue centres because there are just too many dogs and not enough adopters. Is life in kennel any life for a dog ? No and so all things considered it would be kinder to let the puppies go. Lets use the money on those poor dogs that are stuck in rescue now to see if they can get homes.

It is not only dogs rescue that are suffering the Cats Protection League now have waiting lists for upto six months for taking in cats.
This is what is happening across the board and so radical decisions have to be made in this current climate.

Obviously Dogs Trust do home checks
Mmmm when it was the Canine Defense League, I knew of a male 12 month OES that they homed with a young couple that both worked fulltime.  Their house was destroyed and I followed the dog through 3 more homes before he went to Scotland! :(

I would rather that they had never been conceived in the first place - but to all of you who think that the puppies deserve life ...would you like any of them to experience these sorts of life?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1326486/Drunken-thug-hanged-dog-jailed-10-weeks.html

http://rawjustice.com/2010/06/23/man-throws-puppey-at-moving-train-could-face-3-years-in-prison/

http://celebrifi.com/gossip/Facebooks-puppy-kicker-revealed-on-live-news-3846902.html

This is what they could experience :(

i understand why we let our hearts rule us after all we are animal lovers or we wouldnt be on champdogs! alot of us breed and we see our babbies being born and we are there 24/7 for 8weeks plus, but this isnt the same ,we dont know what their perents were like!!! could of very agressive or have health problems? we dont know for sure, it is much kinder for it to be done now then to wait and see! we have so many in recue because of people breeding and taking no resonablaty for pups they aloud there dogs to have! plus has resonsable breeders we are always going to take our dogs back if things dont work out. like it has been said ,dont even know what breed they could be :(

I did think that at least two of them looked strong enough to be of Pit bull origin myself sadly!  And there was me did everything to have a wonderful litter, owners already sorted and she's not pregnant!

Emotions run high with rescue dogs and so they should.  I fail to see how puppies abandoned can be linked to rats etc living in the wild.  You are all so negative about these puppies, oh they look like pit type dogs.... Im sure the rescue concerned would be in a position to judge what their breed is likely to be.  As for not knowing their temp, that is the beauty of fostering!!!!  You should all try it sometime!!!

K9OURS ,hi i have had 2 in the past ,but having young children and 1 aurtistic im not in the postion to be able to now.

As for not knowing their temp, that is the beauty of fostering!!!!  You should all try it sometime!!!

Have done, as I'm sure most people on here will have done. I have fostered puppies from the RSPCA, had elderly dogs from breed rescue, had dogs from general rescue.

The comparison with rats was because it was said every breathing creature should have a chance to grow up. No they should not.

Im sure the rescue concerned would be in a position to judge what their breed is likely to be.
I doubt that very much.  The breeds that even the big rescues come up with are just a guess and often obviously no where near right.  These kind hearted people tend to know very little about pedigree dogs.  And most rescue dogs are 'about 4 years old' a nice round number.  Not too old and not too young, unless the dogs are obviously decrepid. 
I think that there are few things worse than taking a dog from a family home and abandoning it in kennels for months on end with little human contact.  But the few things that ARE worse make putting the dog to sleep the best option as far as I'm concerned.  And yes, I've done that too. :( :(

As for not knowing their temp, that is the beauty of fostering!!!!  You should all try it sometime!!!
Been there and got the t-shirt!  Also seen the deterioration of rescue dogs in kennels for months on end!  Not a pretty sight and the situation will get even worse as more people lose their jobs and try to make money from their pets.:(

I'd sadly agree with the pts people. And no, rescues frequently have no idea at all what breed or cross they have taken in, in adults let alone young puppies!

I've thought that rescues rearing whole litters was misguided for a long time. OK leave a pup for the bitch's sake but rearing everything isn't really a sensible option IMO. Since rescue dogs are spayed would it not be better to spay before litter are born.

Don't usually admit to this because people have such strong reaction to idea.

An extract from a woman who used to do what most of you are suggesting

I feel here I need to say a few words to explain that though a strong believer in "no kill" rescue homes, I am now a realist not an ostrich. I used to avoid any rescue that euthanised animals, instead of opening my eyes and going to them to help to change them.
     Necessity and my love of animals made me become a murderer (taking innocent lives) and I will never accept I was anything else. Worse still, when I could no longer take anymore - I left (though, of course, I waited till a replacement was found).
     Many times when walking the rows of kennels  and being greeted joyfully by my friends, I would then have to betray them and walk them to the room of death.  There I would gently take their trusting paws, shave their legs and administer the fatal injection.  All the while they lovingly gazed into my eyes and wagged their tails. Cat, dog, puppy and kitten all took with them a little of my life as I took theirs. To add insult to injury they were then put into black bin liners and put into the freezer until one of the two dog catchers came and tossed them on their truck and dumped them in the land fill!

This woman now devotes her life to SAVING yes SAVING animals.

You all have your opinions and are very entitled to them as so do I. 

Oh and as for the RSPCA I wouldnt give them the time of day, never have, never will.

it is heart breaking to read that ,and thats why i feel for the pups ,life is so cruel ,i love animals and have just had a phone call from my sister saying my poor brothers cat has been put to sleep this afternoon she had throt cancer ,my brother is house bound and the cat was his only company and best friend,hes heart broken. i have a heart and worry about all animals ,and thats why i worry about these pups ending up after a life of nothing and still having to be put to sleep when there older :( x

Oh and as for the RSPCA I wouldnt give them the time of day, never have, never will.

So because you don't like them you wouldn't help THEIR homeless puppies? What happened to every breathing creature has rights?

I have to agree with the majority here :-( having been involved in rescue I have seen first hand the sub standard life many of these dogs end up with, surely no one believes that a dog living months or even years in kennels is a good life?

if the pups are healthy then why put them to sleep. and i am sick of people going on about staffys. why do people make out that they am bad dogs well they am not.

Nobody's saying staffies are bad dogs, just that rescues are already overflowing with staffies and staffy crosses - more than 50% of the intake in many. There simply aren't enough homes for this type of dog, and knowingly to add to the problem is at best foolish and at worst downright wicked. If reared these eight puppies will be taking the homes that might have been available to eight other dogs, which will then be condemned - or don't they matter because they don't have the 'aaaah' factor any more?

> Oh and as for the RSPCA I wouldnt give them the time of day, never have, never will.
>
> So because you don't like them you wouldn't help THEIR homeless puppies? What happened to every breathing creature has rights?

How is being unable to help a puppy equal to killing it. One person can only help so many and why shouldn't they choose which rescues to help?

If any one needs culling or putting to sleep i'm afraid, in my humble opinion it's us human beings! Anyone heard of Easter Island? Look it up!
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/24/042.html
The majority of the human race is greedy, selfish and financial gain by whatever means is all what matters even in a so called civilised manner.
We are leaving behind a catalogue of ruin for future generations. Our fellow companions, animals in what ever form you perceive them to be do not stand a chance alongside us.
The rat population is our fault for all the rubbish and litter left lying around for them to feast on! We are a throw away society.
As for the R.S.P.C.A i saw a documentary perhaps two years ago now where trainee inspectors had to practice euthanasia on staffy/pit bull type dogs which were due to be put to sleep. While i do not condone it i was appalled at the sheer callousness as the trainees fumbled with the dogs while trying to find a vein. It was very hit and miss and clearly caused upset with the dogs who should have died with some dignity, a whiff of gas or something beforehand would have helped immensely but of course it was deemed essential by the R.S.P.C.A. to keep costs down.
Surely our energies would be better spent on campaigning to the government to improve education & legislation with regard to dog ownership.      

i too dont see any1 spoiling for a fight! and everyone has their own opinion ,like pookin has said ive also been rereading and carnt find anything! i think you dont like our opinion K9OURS about this, but imo its what is best in the long run for these poor babies :(

> If reared these eight puppies will be taking the homes that might have been available to eight other dogs

The same could be said about every responsible breeder, each puppy they breed is taking a home that might have been given to an older rescue dog.

I think even you would agree that people should be able to choose to buy a responsibly bred pup, not be forced to take an old dog from rescue. There seems to be an attitude on this board that people who want to rescue shouldn't be allowed a puppy but only to take an older dog. Some people might find an older dog more suitable and some will find a puppy more suitable.

in the article they are looking for foster mums for 6-8wks, what breeder would want to hand a puppy of that age back to a rescue - its no place for tiny puppies :(

I am in the PTS camp.

> if the pups are healthy then why put them to sleep. and i am sick of people going on about staffys. why do people make out that they am bad dogs well they am not

If you read through previous topics on this site you will see that the majority of posters love staffies, the problem is that there are thousands of unwanted staffies and as a breed in general appear to be harder to rehome (mostly through sheer volume). Why would you add to the problem? They are beautiful dogs extremely people orientated but need an owner with a dedication to training them to the best of their ability to avoid further bad press. Unfortunately I have seen people able to re-home from rescue centres which certainly don't fit the above description :-(

I'm undecided on what is best ethically and morally.

A lot would depend on how easy it would be to find homes for the pups, normally i'd of thought puppies are a lot easier to find homes for that say an older staff cross? All depends on how they vet the homes as to whether they are suitable as to whether they end up back in rescue. Its a hard decision and i'm personally glad I don't have to make it.

Being as it is that its the DT i'm sure they'll try every effort to keep these pups going, its reached the media in huge degrees so you'll probably find many more people wanting to offer them homes.

What i'm wondering is why the jab(can't think of its name off the top of my head) isn't more readily advertised/offered by vets. Do you know I had no idea it existed until I joined this forum.

I am sorry this post has turned out so controversial, I can see and understand all the reasons given for the puppies to be pts but I also go with my gut instinct and that is to protect and nurture these puppies. I know, sadly there are millions of unwanted dogs who need loving homes, young and old alike.  There are also millions of dogs (not unwanted) but not cared for properly that also need to be protected......  

I do believe that bringing something like this to the fore is beneficial (hopefully) in the long term because we need to do something to prevent this happening, goodness knows what, but there has to be a way and it starts with puppy farms and also educating 'joe public' to put it crudely :(

Do not apologise Perry, as all ready been said by many we all have our own opinions on the matter, and Im sure I speak for many we are all pasionate when it comes to our K9 friends.  What the answer is I just do not know:/ but for me it goes against the grain to have seemingly healthy 8 week old puppies put to sleep.  Ill say no more on the matter.

>i saw a documentary perhaps two years ago now where trainee inspectors had to practice euthanasia on staffy/pit bull type dogs which were due to be put to sleep. While i do not condone it i was appalled at the sheer callousness as the trainees fumbled with the dogs while trying to find a vein.

All vets have done exactly the same when they're learning how to do it as students. They don't get it wrong on purpose. 'A whiff of gas' will reduce the blood pressure and make it even harder to find a vein.

>I think even you would agree that people should be able to choose to buy a responsibly bred pup, not be forced to take an old dog from rescue.

Yes, people should be able to choose a responsibly bred pup ... you ('even' you? But that would be rude) can't convince me that these particular pups come in that category.

It seems as though it is all coming down to 'class' here, why is one pup or litter worth less or more than another? Despite or apart from the health testing of responsible breeders i just look on these pups as needing care, they are here after all; and whether or not we like the particular breed (whatever that may be) doesn't make them any the less worthy of a chance.

>whether or not we like the particular breed (whatever that may be) doesn't make them any the less worthy of a chance.

Of course, if they turn out to be 'pitbull type' then they'll have to be put to sleep anyway. A bit of a gamble.

K9OURS you say "What the answer is I just do not know:/ but for me it goes against the grain to have seemingly healthy 8 week old puppies put to sleep" (my bold/italics)

This is where I have the problem.   The mother is dead - goodness only knows what the father was.   We have no idea of the temperaments of either parent.   They could turn out to be wonderful, gentle dogs.  On the other hand, they may come from aggressive/volatile stock that can change moods in the twinkling of an eye.   And if these dogs grow to be large dogs with uncertain temperaments - what then?

Some of the older posters on Champdogs might recall a posting of mine, way back in the middle of December 2005.   Five or six 8 week old "labrador" pups were found abandoned near where we live.   No 3 son was doing some landscape work for the local dog rescue and saw these puppies - and one in particular took a great interest in his work, following him around - and he phoned, and asked if he could bring it home - after all, it was his birthday etc etc etc (No3 son was btw 25!!!) This little labrador came home with him - she was adorable - all black but with white toes on one of her back feet - so she was called "Mistletoe" - Missie for short.

Fast forward five years.   This "labrador" has the tail & haunches of a german shepherd, ear set of a labrador but more of the head of a great dane - and is almost great dane size - so heavens only knows what went into her breeding.    Despite spending her first three years a part of our "pack" she is nervous and dog-aggressive with dogs she does not know and can be very wary of people.   Despite going to really good training classes, she isn't an easy dog to live with - but she's adored by No 3 son & his partner.   We do know that 3 of her siblings were rehomed at least twice by the rescue that took them in - Missie is the success story of the pack.   

What I'm trying to say is that these little puppies could grow as big as Missie has - and believe me, Missie can do a lot of damage if she does get in a fight.   I know - she and one of our dogs had a fight - PMT with teeth - and I got caught in the middle - and spent 2 weeks in hospital havin micro surgery on my hand after she twisted round and my hand got in the way.

Exactly the reason rescues should not be rearing puppies as they can have no idea what went into the melting pot.  Too much of a gamble.

An adult rescue can be assessed (though it's background and experiences will never be fully known).

A well bred puppy from a responsible breeder especially of a purebred has documented parents/ancestors whose health and temperament can be checked.

The same could be said about every responsible breeder, each puppy they breed is taking a home that might have been given to an older rescue dog.

Not at all -because that isn't like for like in any way at all. As has been said many a time before here, if all that was available to us was the dogs in rescue centres, and let's face it, that means mainly Staffies and Staffy crosses, then a lot of us would not get a dog at all. We can't all have the same breed or type, what suits one person does not suit all, and anyone wanting to make sure to get a healthy, well reared pup of good temperament is not going to a rescue and get a dog with unknown parentage that might be seriously ill after a few short years as the parents had HD or heart problems or PRA or Von Willebrand or Syringomyelia or anything else that the responsible breeders test for. Or indeed poor temperament.  I know I can't AFFORD a rescue dog again.

These crossbred pups however, they would be competing for the very same homes as the rest of the dogs in rescue.