I am hoping that someone can help me, a family member had decided that they were going to get a staffordshire bull terrier in the next year or so (good choice in my opinion), I had directed them to this site and advised them what to look for in a breeder etc etc. However they are now talking about being torn between a stafford and an american bulldog, now I am sure that there are many nice american bulldogs but I have a few concerns about this, 1) It would be their first dog and I don't think this is a dog for novices. 2) They aren't a "recognised" breed in this country and so therefore the amount of "reputable" breeders would be very thin on the ground. I wouldn't normally get involved but being on this site has made me want to be pro active rather than sit back and watch them make a mistake. Are their any statistics on bites etc that would help me put them off? Or any persoanl experience? I am not looking to persecute them as a breed I just want to help them see that they wouldn't be a suitable dog for them (especially as a first breed)

tell them it may grow up to look like a pitbull and as such police could seize their beloved pet and have pts.  a staffy from reputable breeder will look like a staffy and be in no danger on that score.

It's really hard to change someones mind when they are pretty set upon an idea.  I notice loads of people pop up on here to ask for advice, don't hear what they want to hear, rant a bit, then leave!!  Although that's usually on the subject of breeding...

If you think they may still be 'open' to suggestion could you get them to Discover Dogs?  13 - 14 November 2010 at Earls Court 1, London.  They may see other breeds they like better but at the very least they may get some sense of what to look for in a breed and breeder.  Worth a try perhaps

I  had a very bad experience with an American Bulldog in my salon(extreme aggression) The owner had said on the phone it was a softie but later admitted they couldn't bath him themselves.They are now one of our banned breeds(the other being Akitas).I've also heard of a case of an American Bulldog killing a yorkie.
Maybe there are some nice ones out here but the ones I have known have had a strong guarding instinct.

Just had a wee peek at Wiki and it states that they are known for dog v dog aggression, especially towards their own sex and this is not going to be any easy task for anyone to endure let alone a stubborn type like this, the weight behind it will make it that much more difficult to manage. This goes on even after doing socialisation. Can't say i'd want a dog knowing that unless I had lots of my own contained land to run them in.

"Some health problems in American bulldogs are often found within certain genetic lines, and are not common to the entire breed, while others, such as neuronal ceroid lipofuscinosis (NCL), enlarged hearts, disorders of the kidney and thyroid, skin disorders, ACL tears, hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, entropion, ectropion, and bone cancer are more common to the general population of American bulldogs."

So they would need to make sure that any breeder has completed a large number of health tests before they embark on looking at any pups.

As they are a Molosser type breed they will need to have a strong firm hand, if they don't they are going to have a whole heap of trouble at the end of their lead. This type were bred to work and be worked, to have as a general pet to sit about and maybe get walked 1-2 a day is not going to be enough for this breed. They will have a strong stubborn streak in them too

Any dog has it's good points and bad points and I think to be responsible, anyone considering getting a dog needs to be completely honest with thierselfs over the bad points and really need to consider "Am I the right owner for this type of dog".
The American Bulldog, is extremely powerfull with strong protective traits. This effects it's attitude towards people. If extensive socilistaion is not undertaken, or goes wong you then have an extremely powerfull dog than will be agresive towards people (not just 'aloof', but actively agressive due to it's fierce protectiveness). They apparently also are prone to dog on dog agression and it's rare for one to tollerate a dog of the same sex. Some can also have the instinct to chase, catch & kill small animals such as cats.
To keep the dog HAPPY, it needs to be worked - weight pulling/agility etc. consider what a bored, powerfull, active dog with strong guarding instincts could be like.

All of these worries are there with a well-bred, good example of the breed. How can you be sure to get a well-bred, good example of the breed when they are not recognised by the KC (therfore the breeders have no reputaion to protect if they turn out extremes of temperment).

As you can tell from my name, I have an English Mastiff - a molloser. He is strong willed and has needed a firm (but fair) hand, using absolute consistency to teach him the rules. He is a huge, powerfull dog and I would happliy have another in the blink of an eye. I love the look of an American Bulldog, but I would NOT have one if you paid me - I know that I could not deal with one, they are far too energetic and driven for me, it would be a recipe for disaster and completey not fair on the dog.

Just to add another thing in, with such a dog, as has been mentioned, one needs to have a 'firm hand', but this does NOT mean a forcefull approach, it means that you must teach the dog that when you say 'no' (or whatever) you MEAN it and it has to be followed. A harsh approach will quickly backfire, erroding trust and can force the dog to protect itself from YOU (and the American BUlldog, I imagine has a low threshold for being bullied!). Your friends would need to be 100% how they can impliment kind, reward-based training on a dog that is going to question them (especially at the 'kevin' stage)and be incredibly strong with it.

If they were going for this breed then they would have to ensure that they went to the true breeders of them and not those who class their pitbulls as one.

If you're trying to put them off the AB, I'd certainly think it worthy mentioning their strength!  Bearing in mind the considerable strength of the Stafford for it's size, I can say hand on heart that the AB is very much stronger and twice the size!  That might be enough to put them off? 
I do tend to think that a Stafford is not necessarily a breed for a novice owner either, but that's just an opinion and I guess we all started off as novice owners somewhere  :)
They should also bear in mind that Staffords can sometimes be fairly 'choosy' about their doggy companions too.
Other than that, I think they are a fantastic breed (I'm biased of course) in the right hands.
Remember to direct them toward a breeder who health tests (as well as having fantastically temperamented Staffords) for PhPV, HC, L2Hga.

Would have thought finding a breeder that has pure bred American Bulldogs in the UK very difficult and they in turn will have to have found a pure bred stud. 

American Bulldogs are not a breed recognised by the American Kennel Club, the FCI or the British Kennel Club so anyone purchasing one would be hard put to know what they were actually buying and would have to take the word of a breeder who for the most part will be breeding dogs for those who consider themselves "hard" or enjoy weight pulling.

Thank you definitely some food for thought. They both have experience with staffords but have never owned their "own" dogs before which is why they know what to expect and I thought the stafford would be perfect for them. I am hoping the "extra" work that they would have to put in with the training and exercise will be enough to put them off ;-)

Any of the Bull breeds need firm but fair handling and consistancy with training.
Boxers can be a right handful without the proper training and socialisation..
They are similar in size to an American Bulldog...and some of the Am Bull's are being
passed off as Boxer crosses :( especially as the white Boxers with colour patches can look similar
to Am Bulls.

With inexperienced dog owners I wouldn't advise getting an Am Bull especially as temperaments can
be very variable and they certainly are a handful even for very experienced dog people.
Highly territorial and very guarding of their own 'family'.
I know some Boxer breeders won't home pups to people that have not owned the breed before as
they feel that Boxers aren't for the inexperienced either.
That said they are also known for being a good family dog as Staffies are too.
So if they are prepared to put in the groundwork with socialisation and training I'd say go for a well bred staffy
from health tested parents, especially if they have breed knowledge too.
If they want a bigger bull breed....then if they have a sense of humour and aren't too house proud a
Boxer might fit the bill :) They are quite infectious....

Discover Dogs at Earls Court would probably be a good place for them to go to meet and greet the breeds
and normally you should get the warts (pro's and con's) and all run down on each breed plus some
pretty good doggy greetings :)

I love Staffs and have never met a nasty one.  I admit I only know one AB but I am very wary of it... ok, yes scared LOL. It is immensely strong, guards with a passion and doesn't like other dogs. For the very experienced I would think.

My father in law has one.

It's one of the classic type - so quite bully.    I wouldn't call it energetic - in fact to my mind it's exaggerated to the point of not being able to take a decent amount of exercise in any kind of warm weather.  The two different types do differ so much they are really different breeds.   The lighter type (think they are called Johnson) are at risk of being seized as pitbulls in my opinion.  

It's very dog aggressive - though it's socialisation was lacking.

It has cost a packet in vets bills.

It has quite a high guarding instinct.  

Just like any bull breed the - AB needs to be well socalised with both people and other dogs,
in the right hands they are realy good dogs, they are strong - but like any other dog training should be done,

This lad benny is an AB x, he plays with my dogs and any other dog he meets,
hes fantastic with kids and people, he can be stubborn, but so can a lot of other breeds.

http://picasaweb.google.com/111192008996311547239/Benny#5512058099126711138

we also had a rescue AB X DDB, in for rehomeing, couple of years ago,
same again he played with all sorts of different types of dogs, was fantastic with kids and other people
although he was high energy, brought up right theres nothing wrong with the AB.

Couple of the best people i can direct you to - to find out more are jackie
http://www.canecorsoukmolosserrescue.com/

and Ali who runs the DDA blog site and also owns rescue AB's herself
http://dangerousdogsact.blogspot.com/

Alot of time Ali is on this site.
http://www.petfriendlyworld.com/chatforum/index.php

A friend of mine has both an Am Bull and a Staff. Both bitches. I can honestly say that they are the funniest, lovliest natured dogs i have ever met. Like a lot of dogs they want to be part of the family and cant understand being excluded, so be prepared to let them be part of everything you do! I have to say though the Am is far bigger than twice the size of the staff, i'd say more like 4x!

He has of course been very dilligent with his training and socilisation and is a big strong lad who can handle the two of them. They are so people orientated that they dont display any guarding instinct. But i'm sure like any dog, they can sense when there is a real threat and would act accordingly.

They have a young son who they are both fabulous with.

He has had one litter from both girls and they nannied each others pups :). He did extensive reseach for a suitable match for both bitches and it took nearly 5 years to find the right match for his Am.

Like any dog in the right hands and with the right training they can be great companions but doing the ground work and finding a good breeder is essential.

They have been firmly put off the American Bulldog :-)

i have owned an american bulldog, she was an absolute lollypop loved everyone and was great with kids she didnt have an ounce of aggression in her whole body

It must be difficult recommending a certain breed of dog to friends, such a long term commitment, if it goes pear shaped. You can only advise I suppose, and leave the decision to them.

> It must be difficult recommending a certain breed of dog to friends, such a long term commitment, if it goes pear shaped. You can only advise I suppose, and leave the decision to them.

I wouldn't recommend a breed to anyone as I wouldn't consider myself knowledgeable enough about different breeds however there are certain breeds that are obviously not for first time owners (or the faint hearted) and I couldn't forgive myself to sit back and say nothing.

It would be a good question to ask this, which breeds would you say to friends or family would/should be a good/safe family pet and which would you advise against?

I love German Shepherds but I wouldn't necessarily recommend them to everyone, each situation is different I suppose.

I think choosing any breed is a personal thing, each situation is different. What I think is a "nice" breed might not be "nice" for someone else :-)

I know what you mean. :)

As being owned by a dog is a life long commitment I would advise as much research as possible to find one that is suitable for your situation. Had a call enquiring about pups and she said she didn't want a bouncy breed, I told her then she didn't want my breed!!

I would tell the person to write down what they wanted in a dog, ie size, what exercise, life expectancy etc and then look (maybe on the KC site) and try and find a dog that would match their needs. Once they had narrowed it down they should then contact breed clubs to try and see if they could add pros/cons and maybe they could visit an owner. We are always very honest about the good and bad points in our breed as the last thing you want is for a puppy to have to be rehomed.

As you say what suits one person, doesn't suit another! Having camped next to hounds at Midland Counties those particular ones started being " busy" far too early for me :(

Having shared a hotel with Samoyeds at Midland, that was enough to put me off, lovely as they are, yap they do, blinkin eck. No thanks lol

Funny my breed get a rep for being mouthy, and I suppose with the hounds only the dachsies are yappy, the basenjis have he eerie caterwauling dn finkies to bark a lot, but the rest are pretty quit.

It is rare for us to be with working or Pastoral, but it was so noisy yesterday, ours seemed like mutes.  There were Sammies, Laphunds, Buhunds and several other quite vocal pastorals.

It was noisy, that along with the tannoy and by bad hearing, It wasn't easy to hear people talk.
But hey it's a dog show after all. Good fun.

> yap they do, blinkin eck.

My friend has Samoyed's and hers are very quiet compared to what is said to be a noisy breed.

Hey DD try spending time around the Malamute and Husky rings, they are blooming vocal. They do make me chuckle but could never live with one.

Sorry but I have found that whenever we are on the same day as Terrier's the noise in the hall goes up a lot, they have to be the most vocal group of all, even over Pastoral.

> My friend has Samoyed's and hers are very quiet compared to what is said to be a noisy breed.
>

It's not so much constant suejaw just an awful high pitched yap.

There's me mentioning noisy dogs and then my group gets highlighted!!!! I agree there are some terriers that are vocal BUT as with these hounds at the weekend if the owner just ignores them then they are going to keep going :( I would not tolerate persistant barking/whinging.

In defence of these houndson the campsite the owners were not vigilant, on show sites you see the best of dog people ( out walking in all weathers) and the other lot!!!

> then my group gets highlighted!!!!

Sorry Sawheaties.. Can I clarify its the smaller of the terriers that are most noisy, not the larger ones. They seem to all set each other off when on benches. At MC when shopping, there was a lot of noise coming from one area, looked down and it was the Staffords.

Toy group are also noisy, can't walk past a cage/crate without a dog lunging at mine through it, and they bark a lot too.

The quietest group is the Gundogs(cause we are never with them) but no they are quiet even at all breed open shows.

It's ok Suejaw, there are noisy terriers! Thankfully ours only go mad when the postman arrives.
Staffs have a unique sound, we are often in the ring next to them. I agree gundogs seem not to have as much to say :)

>I agree gundogs seem not to have as much to say 

unless you are benched next to the weimerarners or vizslas :(

Hey DD try spending time around the Malamute and Husky rings, they are blooming vocal. They do make me chuckle but could never live with one.

Oh gosh yes. We often share a ring with them at open shows and I'm usually ready to scream  after 5 minutes. They all seem to arrive hours in advance as well! And nobody even tries to shut them up, they are just left in cages at ringside with no owner around.

At benched shows it seems to be the Border Collies making the most noise close to us. Now the Belgians can be pretty vocal too, but most exhibitors don't leave them so then the problem doesn't occur. There's the odd exhibitor of course who does and yes they drive me nuts as well. I would NEVER leave my dogs benched and unattended, for a million reasons.

> I would NEVER leave my dogs benched and unattended, for a million reasons.

Neither would I.. I'm even more spectical to ask someone to keep an eye on mine(benched) when I need the loo, as i've come back to find my dog all alone before :-(
The amount of dogs we walk past on benches where there is no one watching them. The problem then arises as they walk past them to get to your bench and they are lunging, barking and growling at your dog as you go past - un-nerves me that as you just don't know how much lead the dog has. Certain breeds are worse than others, and the other thing is the owner probably has no idea and these dogs may not display these traits when owner around.

Not dogs at shows but has anyone been to watch Husky Racing, They have quite a few metings round here (Thetford Forest)

you get a team of 6 or 8 in harness on the start line and they are SCREAMING to get started and then the next few waiting to go all starting as well.....
Got coat, got wellies Got Ear defenders :-D
Chris

> Neither would I.. I'm even more spectical to ask someone to keep an eye on mine(benched) when I need the loo, as i've come back to find my dog all alone before :-(

If I said I'd look after your dog while you went somewhere like the loo, I wouldn't leave your dogs side not for a 2nd. :)

Not dogs at shows but has anyone been to watch Husky Racing, They have quite a few metings round here (Thetford Forest)

At least there it should be like minded people and dogs, that know what to expect. :) I've been at shows where some dogs have got terrified by the noise other dogs have made. :(

Venues also play a part the acoustics in some halls are awful for making things worse.  I know what you mean about some more sound sensitive dogs hating the noise.

My country living friends two bitches hate the yapping reverberating around the smeller halls at Staford for example and they refuse to use their ears much, as you can see a pained expression on their faces.