I disagree. I think that any "treatment" that misleads to be unethical. I have seen homeopaths who claim to be able to manage a vast array of medical problems. On what basis can these claims be made?

I feel that many conventional "treatments" are misleading and unethical....that many drugs are doing far more harm than good....but they have the advantage of being backed by huge corporations with billions of pounds worth of funding to conduct trials....millions of animals will suffer to prove what....?? That a drug can surpress a symptom...?? The trouble is that next they realise that "well....yes actually there are some horrible side-effects....but rather than admit that they have got it wrong they produce yet another drug to manage the side-effects of the first drug... Its all BIG buisness to them...

Vets take an oath to first do no harm. For some the fact that they realise that "yes...actually the drugs I am prescribing do cause harm...doesn't sit well with the oath they have taken and they search for another way to help the animals in their care... Having taken an oath to do no harm...then experiments on animals also becomes an uncomfortable way to try and prove something.

Maybe the only way for any of us to have "concrete evidence" of a product working is to have tried it and witnessed it first hand for ourselves...??

I really feel that "vaccination theory" as it is currently understood....and probably a lot of the surpressive and toxic drugs used today will become the next "dark age of medicine" in another 20-50 years or so. Unless of course the big corporations continue to convince the public that the only god any of us actually need is their own "god of science and profit"......and that Mother Nature had got it wrong all this time.....

they are homeopathic remedies (called nosodes) made out of the organisms that cause the disease

quite similar to vaccinations then, these work by adding organisms of the disease only with added chemicals.

My homeopathic vet practices both conventional and homeopathic, I am happy to go along with their way of thinking that nosodes help protect against the diseases that vaccines do.  However, I firmly believe that these are not necessary yearly (and neither are boosters) as I was advised by an eminent professor (recently retired) that once a dog has immunity that immunity will be there for quite a long time and I think I am correct in 7 years to life.  So yes, titre tests are the best way forward I believe.  However, if your dog has to be placed into a kennels then for insurance purposes the dogs need to be vaccinated, and some kennels will accept nosodes and that is the reason I go for those.  As my boys titre tets came back with high immunity to distemper but low to parvo, and nowhere could I get the vaccine for parvo only - apparently it is available only the majority of vets don't stock it.

It is really interesting that our vets now say that distemper has almost been eradicated but for some reason the distemper vaccine is still given as a matter of cause along with parvo :(

I find it very interesting that a letter I received from Virbac (after my last dog died from an adverse reaction to a booster)   states that 'in an ideal world all dogs would have a blood test each year to establish whether a booster was necessary'. Straight out of the horse's mouth (so to speak)!

And for those who have the time, you might find this interesting reading:
http://www.alternativevet.org/Nosode%20Protection%20WS023-07.pdf

I feel that many conventional "treatments" are misleading and unethical....that many drugs are doing far more harm than good

I agree in some ways that side effects of many drugs are simply awful. However, I am not misled nor is it unethical because I am aware of what such side effects might be. There is also a system for reporting adverse reactions with conventional medication which is not available to "alternative" markets. My sister was a long time user of KavaKava - a herbal remedy. However, this has now been withdrawn from UK market after concerns of people dying from liver failure. Anyway, my point is...I make an informed choice over whether the side effects outweigh the benefits. In the case of my dog with epilepsy, he has been on pheno for 8 years (he is now 12) and the only noticeable side effect is rear end ataxia and increased thirst. A documented side effect which I was aware of. Although reported to increase the likelihood of liver failure, I feel the benefit outweighed the risk. We have a well controlled epileptic dog who has now reached the age of 12 with no apparent liver disease.

Whilst I am a user of herbal remedies, I don't feel we are as well informed of the side effects and the market fails to be regulated.

Maybe the only way for any of us to have "concrete evidence" of a product working is to have tried it and witnessed it first hand for ourselves...??

I would say the only way is to have trials. I don't booster vaccinate my dogs nor do I give nosodes. I am convinced enough by research that we overvaccinate. However, had I given nosodes and my dogs had remained disease free, is that evidence the nosodes have worked? Clearly not!

Anyway, we will have to agree to disagree for now :) I did hope that people who really embraced homeopathy would unearth findings for me that I had not found but, unfortunately, not.

I would say the only way is to have trials. I don't booster vaccinate my dogs nor do I give nosodes. I am convinced enough by research that we overvaccinate. However, had I given nosodes and my dogs had remained disease free, is that evidence the nosodes have worked? Clearly not!

I agree with you about not boostering each year, it is not necessary, however, occasionally for some we have to use kennels and I feel the lesser of the two evils is nosodes.  Although I am interested in your theory that if nosodes have been used and your dog remained disease free you would not take that as evidence that they worked, would you feel the same about vaccination?

Anyway, we will have to agree to disagree for now  I did hope that people who really embraced homeopathy would unearth findings for me that I had not found but, unfortunately, not.  

Always best to keep an open mind and why would you want your mind changed anyway.  I cannot say I embrace homeopathy anymore than I embrace conventional medicine, as I said before there is room for both and best kept that way. 

There is also a system for reporting adverse reactions with conventional medication
I agree but the yellow forms (if they still are?) are rarely used.  I had a bitch died after being given Rimadyl but my Vet wouldn't accept that it possibly could have been the drug because he used it every day.  The fact that some of his patients died.... he would put down to the 'illness/operation' rather then the drug even though his nurses had drawn different conclusions.

I am convinced enough by research that we overvaccinate
I agree but most owners are happy to pay their Vet to overvaccinate, even though it's against the manufacturers instructructions. :(
And some dogs die from the illnesses after they've been vaccinated - that doesn't prove that vaccination doesn't work.  Nothing works for everything. :)

However, had I given nosodes and my dogs had remained disease free, is that evidence the nosodes have worked? Clearly not!
I agree but it used to be just a 14% improvement that was accepted that drugs work - I'm not sure if that is still the case.  I don't consider 14% proof of anything. :(  Clinical trials can prove whatever the drug company wants to prove.

Although I am interested in your theory that if nosodes have been used and your dog remained disease free you would not take that as evidence that they worked, would you feel the same about vaccination?

But the efficacy of vaccinations was subject to trials. I think the efficacy of them also speaks for itself - we have almost eradicated distemper as a result.

why would you want your mind changed anyway

It would be ridiculous of me to not want evidence of other remedies which may be beneficial for me or my dogs. I am by far closed minded even though I think my views on homeopathy have led to people thinking I am not open or have a "herd mentality".

If we want the best for us and for our pets then we must be open to the changing world of medicine. Treatments prescribed 20, 30, 40 years ago would not be considered as a first choice now. Progression will always happen as we learn more about minds and bodies :) However, at this present time, homeopathy isn't stacking up as the progressive way forward.

had a bitch died after being given Rimadyl but my Vet wouldn't accept that it possibly could have been the drug because he used it every day.

That's awful, I am so sorry. I think I would be changing vets in this instance as that is an exceptionally ridiculous stance to take. Some years back, one of my dogs was prescribed Rimadyl. As I always do (as I am bit anal about medication!) I did my own research and called my Vet three hours later to tell them to prescribe something else as I wasn't giving me dog Rimadyl!

So, as you can see, I am just as questioning of conventional medication! One thing that hugely annoys me about vets is that they don't inform people of potential side effects when medication is prescribed. We can only make an informed choice if we know both the benefits and the risks. My vet now tells me as a matter of course but that was after a long time of me asking directly "what side effects might be experienced".

My first GSD was on Rimadyl for 2 years to aid with slight lameness at the age of 9ish, he had a stroke at 111/2, and the vet recommended to put him to sleep rather than fill him with steroids.

RIP River.

I think you need to get your facts right lucyandmeg, we have a homeopathic vet who 100% recommends nosodes and definitney NOT a waste of time, the 2 vets who practice homeopathy in this practice treat their own pets with nosodes. 
Perry i have to say i find your comment quite rude. I have my facts straight, this is something i was told by Nick Thompson and have written an essay on homeopathy that required quite a lot of research and time and time again it came up that nosodes have no proof that they work and many homeopathic vets would not reccomend them. I'm sure there are some homeopathic vets that still do use them, but there is no proof that they work. If a conventional vet were to reccommend something that has not been proved to work i'm sure many people will be accusing their vet of trying to make a quick buck! I'm not against homeopathy per se but i do not believe there is any evidence for nosodes and has been indicated above.

many homeopathic vets would not reccomend them.
I'm sure that you're right, in the same way that conventional Vets don't all agree on anything. :)
Experts in all fields will disagree with each other whether you're discussing 'proven' theories or otherwise.

I'm not very clued up on nosodes at all, but know that our vet doesn't recommend them routinely.  But I'm just wondering if you know if anyone has looked at titre levels pre and post 'immunisation' with nosodes?  I know titre testing has its limitations, but would think this would be a situation in which it was possible to show efficacy of a homeopathic remedy.

One of the many reasons that they have not been accepted in the `orthodox' medical community, is that they do not produce specific, measurable antibodies thus "titer testing" is of little value in measuring effective immunity from nosode usage.

This was taken from a homeopathic website CVL, so it looks like that wouldn't work.

Thanks for clarifying that colliecrew!

A year ago I would have said homeopathic remedies were a waste of time and money....that is until I had no choice but to put my faith in it.

My 10 year old lab had gotten ill the year before and despite many types of treatment for psuedomonas and thousands of pounds later no results and the vet was telling me to accept she was going to die. This I didn't accept and so I looked for other answers. I contacted the bellamoss foundation who work with owners of dogs with MRSA and psuedomonas and offer support and help. Jill told me about homeopathic remedies that might work and she works closely with Richard Allport.
I took my dog back to an old vet in Devon for the day to try to get more answers and we ended up at Bristol and although we were told Brooke had permanent lung damage no one could say why she did not respond to treatment. This is when I contacted Richard Allport and asked for help, I was at the time more than desparate!!!

Richard gave us a collection of remedies not only for the psuedomonas but for pain from a cruciate injury (which couldn't be operated on due to the illness) and for emotional problems because despite an outstanding temperment all her life, Brooke had become grumpy with people she didn't know (not that I blamed her she was so ill).

After a few short weeks Brooke's attitude to people had changed and she was wagging her tail and making friends again. The persistant cough had changed into a normal cough a few times a day. I kept thinking this can't be the homeopathic stuff but I didn't know what else it could be. The pain in her leg was still the same.

As Brooke's condition improved she was able to go out on the mountain again for walks and she became more her normal self. Things were going so well and I had to admit to myself maybe just maybe homeopathic remedies work.

We were doing well until August when Brooke was fine one minute and then coughing madly, panting and very unwell in general. Within a very short time she was extremely ill and we rushed her to the vets....her temp was off the scale and she was hospitalised....I left the vets in tears, knowing in my heart I would probably never see her alive again. Brooke improved on a drip and antibiotics and a drug to open her airways she had had a chest infection and stomach infection and her airways had all swollen.

Our next appointment Richard gave us remedies that stop the temp spiking and the sickness that Brooke suffers due to not being able to tolerate vet meds of most sorts. Again Brooke made a good recovery until last week when the same things happened only this time I was prepared.....her temp started to go up so I gave her the remedy to stop it being able to rise...... the temp stopped going up...it didnt go down BUT it didn't go up either past the 41.7 mark. I gave the emergency injection from the vet to open her airways and this worked. Then we called the emergency vet out who declared her sick but well enough to be at home. Within hours and a lot of tubs of icecream she was back to normal.

Brooke has everyday now

Immune formula
Zinc
Selenium A/C/E
Vetri DMG Liquid
Yarrow Complex
Pseudomonas Capsule (every other day)
China
Can B

and for emergencies she has hypericum 30, apomorphine and belladonna 30

I sit here and wonder somedays what actually worked and I really do think without Richard Allport my beautiful girl would have died. So I guess I have to say it worked for us and when I look at my beautiful girl running across the mountain it really doesn't matter if other people think I am mad putting my faith in homeopathic remedies cos she is here enjoying life. I know we will have on and off days for the rest of her life BUT for now she is enjoying life and thats all that matters.

I would say the only way is to have trials. I don't booster vaccinate my dogs nor do I give nosodes. I am convinced enough by research that we overvaccinate. However, had I given nosodes and my dogs had remained disease free, is that evidence the nosodes have worked? Clearly not!

Ok...so by NOT giving booster vaccinations or Nosodes....you now have "concrete evidence" that first puppy shots are good for at least 7 years if not for life...?? (Depending on how long you haven't boostered for)

I have 2 dogs who received their first puppy shots....two of their littermates died days after receiving the same vaccination...and for the other two it was touch and go whether they would survive or not. I will never subject them to another vaccination....but neither do I give them Nosodes.
I have two year old youngsters who have only ever received Nosodes (who were weaned onto raw food (no grains) from a raw fed mother....and who have never been subjected to any chemical wormer/flea treatment or household detergents etc) "Concrete evidence" for me that this approach is keeping them in the very best of health.

My partner has a dog who received his puppy shots....and the following 2 years his annual booster......who is now suffering convulsions. Needless to say he will never receive another vaccination...has been switched to a raw diet.....and is under both a conventional vet (pheno) and a Homeopathic Vet while we seek to reduce the dosage of the pheno.

One of the many reasons that they have not been accepted in the `orthodox' medical community, is that they do not produce specific, measurable antibodies thus "titer testing" is of little value in measuring effective immunity from nosode usage.
This was taken from a homeopathic website CVL, so it looks like that wouldn't work.

I think very little is understood about the immune system and its complexities. (For instance it used to be standard practice to remove tonsills as they were regarded to be of little use. However it is now known that tonsills are a major part of the immune system and are one of the body's first lines of defence against infection)

As I understand it....

Nosodes seem to work by giving the body a "picture of the dis-ease".... activating certain cells and memory cells within the immune system...so that if the animal were to come across the virus naturally then the immune system already has a memory of it...and activates a response. If there is no threat to be fought off then the immune system is at rest....so no measurable result on a Titer Test 

Vaccinations seem to work by getting the immune system to produce antibodies....and thus a measurable response on a Titre Test. However an antibody is only usually present when the body is actually in the process of fighting a disease.... (whether its fighting the disease introduced by the vaccination...or fighting a disease proper.....I'm not too sure!)

Ok...so by NOT giving booster vaccinations or Nosodes....you now have "concrete evidence" that first puppy shots are good for at least 7 years if not for life...?? (Depending on how long you haven't boostered for)

No, I don't have "concrete evidence" at all. That's not what I said whatsoever.

My partner has a dog who received his puppy shots....and the following 2 years his annual booster......who is now suffering convulsions. Needless to say he will never receive another vaccination

See, I think that's a rather big assumption to make that vaccinations caused seizures. My dog with seizures was vaccinated as a puppy and never boostered again. He had his first seizure aged 4. There is no link between his vaccine and his seizures. I have since discovered his father had seizures so have concluded it is more likely that, in line with epilepsy research, the link is genetic.

Nosodes seem to work by giving the body a "picture of the dis-ease".... activating certain cells and memory cells within the immune system...so that if the animal were to come across the virus naturally then the immune system already has a memory of it...and activates a response. If there is no threat to be fought off then the immune system is at rest....so no measurable result on a Titer Test

Nosodes don't work and is the opinion of many homeopathic vets.

As I said, it's an agree to disagree topic I think :)

If there's no measureable result there's no evidence that anything has happened.; it's just a matter of faith and belief.

See, I think that's a rather big assumption to make that vaccinations caused seizures. My dog with seizures was vaccinated as a puppy and never boostered again. He had his first seizure aged 4. There is no link between his vaccine and his seizures. I have since discovered his father had seizures so have concluded it is more likely that, in line with epilepsy research, the link is genetic.

You see thats what I find really disturbing and difficult to accept....that basicly what are "people dis-eases" are turning up with increasing frequency in our domestic animals. I feel that there has to be an aetiology...a process...a causitive mechanism....and I feel very strongly that there is a link between the drugs we give them...the food we feed them...their exposure to our increasingly "chemical lifestyle"

I'm not being disrespectful or argumentative in any way....I am genuinely disturbed by it.....and I feel an attempt to ban Natural and Holistic Medicine out of hand is just another step in the wrong direction for both people and animals

>that basicly what are "people dis-eases"

Once you realise that there are diseases (what's the hyphen for?) and conditions that affect all species, as well as species-specific ones (that we know can mutate to increase their range - after all, bacteria and viruses are living organisms as well) it becomes much easier to understand.

that basicly what are "people dis-eases" are turning up with increasing frequency in our domestic animals. I feel that there has to be an aetiology...a process...a causitive mechanism....and I feel very strongly that there is a link between the drugs we give them...the food we feed them...their exposure to our increasingly "chemical lifestyle"

I have not ruled out the fact that there may be a link between "chemical" ingestion and the apparent increase in certain diseases. However, your view is an overly simplistic attribution to drugs and poisons. For example, the average lifespan of a dog has increased quite remarkably. When we compare longevity in this century to longevity of even the 1970/1980's it is clear that animals are living longer. So, how does this fit with ideation that "poisons" in foods, veterinary drugs and vaccines are, in fact, causing the ill-health of our pets? Could it be that our diagnostics are much improved, vaccines and drugs are prolonging life and as a result we are seeing more diseases of "old age"?

I feel an attempt to ban Natural and Holistic Medicine out of hand is just another step in the wrong direction for both people and animals

Not at all. You could not be further from the truth. My disagreement is with homeopathy. My medicine cupboard is packed with herbal remedies. I use D Mannose to treat long term UTI problems with my dog. I am not opposed to alternatives to orthodox medicine. I disagree with something being touted which, at best, is unproven and, at worst, has been completely disproven!

Could it be that our diagnostics are much improved, vaccines and drugs are prolonging life and as a result we are seeing more diseases of "old age"?

Not when the "dis-eases of old age" are occurring in relatively young dogs....

For every dog you/me/we know that has lived a good life....to a good age....there are I feel.....just as many relative youngsters suffering in silence. No doubt many that you will never hear about......many where their loving owners are trying everything medically possible (in the conventional sense) to help them....but are not making the connection between their annual boosters/prescribed medications/diet.... and the health problems of their companion.

> "people dis-eases"
> Once you realise that there are diseases (what's the hyphen for?)

Origin:
Middle English (in the sense 'lack of ease; inconvenience'): from Old French desaise 'lack of ease', from des- (expressing reversal) + aise 'ease'

The homeopathic vet I go to uses it in the same sense, 'lack of ease = unwellness'
Chris

sorry but havent time to read all the posts.

My vet is B.V.Sc. M.R.C.V.S. but will always prefer to go down the alt meds route first. I have yet to have been given anti-bios for infections for my older dogs he has once given me anti bios for a puppy . He has very different views on pharmacutical org  etc he has even given me advice on my own medical probs ...LOL