I can't get my head around how a certain breed will do something it was bred to do moons a go. For instance my GSD's have all been rather good at herding, (well they tell me where they want me to go anyway), and previous ones have been very good at guarding (if you were brave enough to come through the gate at home you would have been lucky to go out in 1 piece ), yet I never trained them this and their parents weren't trained to do this. Instinct how?

Think DD that in the long distant past the different breeds were developed because their breeders were good at using the animals that had the traits and conformation to do the job their owners were wanting, good breeder of today do the same thing they pick the pairing to mate with the finished result wanted in mind, not coupling any two animals of the breed, the fact that it is the same breed produces a pure breed but not necessary one of type.

So if you wanted a dog to guard you chose to mate the two dogs that are best in the guarding traits, if you want it to hunt you do the same and them you refine what you have achieved. The best of today's breeders are still doing the same thing breeding for the best in conformation, health and temperament.

Now today we have dogs like the terriers and all of them have terrier traits so even if you do not breed with the idea of getting a good ratter you are still likely to get one, there are these days dogs that do not have strong breed traits and that is because of the number of breeders breeding for that trait has diminished most now looking more to conformation, health and temperament than they are to function.

Thank you Nova.

OK I'll look into that in more detail but I'm just off to work :). But quick thought, I would expect to pay more from a reputable breeder because they have tried perhaps to breed out a certain bad strain from the breed for instance - My 2 previous GSD's were kind of rescue, but they were supposed to have been from good breeders originally, yet they were nasy buggers with other peeps except for close relatives. However, my last rehome was from no reputable breeder, just a house which accidently a litter occured between 2 gsd's of no particular strong line, if you see what I mean (they were cheap), but he is as gentle as anything.  You probably don't understand what I'm asking there, but it doesn't matter. :)

> supposed to have been from good breeders originally

Depends what they were breeding for, whether it be guarding working or show.
Also if these dogs have gone into rescue how have they been treated prior to you getting them. What socialisation have they had as youngsters. So many questions and so many unknowns that it would be difficult to quantify as to why some GSD's show certain traits and others don't.

My 2 boys have both come from reputable breeders and they are very different, one has a strong guarding instinct and the other not at all, one loves to chase and the other not, one likes to herd the other not. The one who likes to has all these strong traits but the other not.
But best of all they Both love me :-)

So even though these certain breeds were bred originally years ago, the natural instinct still remains in them.

So bear this in mind when looking to buy a dog then.

You should expect a GSD to have guarding traits.
A lab ideal for family domestic situation.
JRT for rabbiting.

And even if you don't train a Greyhound, you would expect it from a pup to chase small furry friends.

There is a lady at the park that wouldn't dare let her beagle off a lead it would chase any scent I suppose??

It is very complicated, not only will different breeders bred for different things but they will be breeding in most cases for a set of criteria and that may not include temperament or any of the traits that may be expected of a breed. For instance if you take the GSD they were one of the breeds that have been trying to improve the HD score within the breed they have also been trying to breed out epilepsy, now any one breeder may be concentrating on making sure that their line has a low hip score and in doing so has allowed an unstable nervousness to creep into their lines.

When you consider that the average bitch will have 3 litters over a period of 5 years it is no easy task to change an unwanted feature or to fix one that is considered good. You will have to wait till the pups reach adulthood to assess how the mating went and by then the bitch may be beyond breeding age and you have to use a daughter who may or may not be carrying the good or bad trait.

Talking about hips, when I dry the Dukesters back legs on the insides he goes to like crouch or sit down, do you think this could be a hip problem in the future.

Talking about hips, when I dry the Dukesters back legs on the insides he goes to like crouch or sit down, do you think this could be a hip problem in the future.


On balance I would say not but a reaction to your towelling, he may develop hip problems but I don't think this is a sign.

Thank You Nova.

>So even though these certain breeds were bred originally years ago, the natural instinct still remains in them.
>A lab ideal for family domestic situation.

You say that as if labradors were designed simply to be pets! No, they were bred to be active dogs, retrieving from both water and on land, and as such they still excel, to the great disappointment of people who thought they were getting a pretty couch potato!

They're ideal for an active, outdoorsy family, not a TV-watching flat-dwelling family.

I was just going to say the same, JG. The only breeds bred to be pets ONLY are some of the toy  breeds but not even all of them were.

really interesting topic,my newfie who is ten months now seems to want to drag me into any water he can find,from lakes to the sea to small puddles,i know this is part of their history,my pugs just likes to bark,sleep and eat,what were pugs bred for years ago?that is something i never knew,any ideas my lovelies
jo x

> really interesting topic,my newfie who is ten months now seems to want to drag me into any water he can find,from lakes to the sea to small puddles,i know this is part of their history

This is what I mean they still do what they were bred to do many moons ago. It's like if you had a pup greyhound would you expect it to chase rabbits straight away like, without any training?

I know about the labs but you seem to see more retreivers and spaniels fetching back shot prey than labs these days.

Both Labs and Newfoundlands are attractive to water but apart from the historic use they are both bred with water work in mind.

Not just Greyhounds most dogs will chase a rabbit unless they are trained not to, rabbit is obtainable food so it would be silly not to catch it if you can.

Labs are still used in the field a good deal it must just be that in the areas you frequent they are not used.

There is a lady I walk with at a quarry and she has 2 lurchers that she calls sight hounds, and she can only take them for a walk where it is safe off lead, because as soon as they see people or dogs they run straight off, some distance. I suppose she could have trained them to heal better if she wanted though.

You can't overcome hundreds of year of selective breeding for a particular task very easily!

>It's like if you had a pup greyhound would you expect it to chase rabbits straight away like, without any training?

You'd expect that from any dog unless it's been trained not to. They are predators, specifically designed by nature to hunt other animals.

I don't know what pugs were bred to do joanne 1000, sorry pal.

I always love boxers but I am sure that's not what they were bred for :) but I would love to know what they were bred to do because my next dog would be a boxer. :)

That's where Google is your friend! Boxer breed history.

Pugs were basically just pets as far as I know, as most toydogs were -often pets for the wealthy as well as only the wealthy (royalty and noblemen etc) could afford to keep a dog that did nothing to earn its keep.

> That's where Google is your friend! [url=http://www.ukboxerdogs.co.uk/history.html" rel=nofollow]Boxer breed history[/url].

I prefer to ask you my lovely. :)

Not really :) I will google later, thanks for the link.

> You can't overcome hundreds of year of selective breeding for a particular task very easily!

JG Do you think that this can be suppresed to a certain degree (if that's the right word) by lack of early socialisation or experiences. Our elder hound came to us at 9/10 months, had been kenneled outside alone and found out later that he probably only went out one every three weeks. Great on lead but soon realised that his wordly experiences were probably minimal. Disliked the dark, rain, the beach, open spaces, different surfaces could frighten him, could go on, but he has no interest in following anything that moves. The rabbits in the field have got so used to him that they don't even bother to move - he can go right up to them if they are in his way, and has even been kicked in the face as they move away! Our 2nd BH came to us as a pup, was socialised well with many more experiences and will scent and chase anything that moves. 

> You say that as if Labradors were designed simply to be pets!

That is what I wanted to pick on Labradors are bred to retrieve and co-operate closely with the handler.  Also work well around other canines etc

They tend to adore water.

These traits are compatible with being a good pet (trainability soft mouth etc), as are many in other breeds.

Some requirements in some breeds are more of a challenge, as you day sight hounds chase, terriers are sharp and will shake and kill things they catch, and hounds will follow scents.  None of these traits are necessarily incompatible with being pet, but do require different handling and training..

> So even though these certain breeds were bred originally years ago, the natural instinct still remains in them.
>

> So bear this in mind when looking to buy a dog then.

Yep, thats the whole point of pure-bred dogs :)

>JG Do you think that this can be suppresed to a certain degree (if that's the right word) by lack of early socialisation or experiences.

Sometimes the traits aren't very strong (and for working dogs it meant they wouldn't have a long life, and certainly wouldn't get to pass on their genes), so your older hound is lucky to have been born when he did, and not 100 years ago, or even earlier when he wouldn't have survived if he couldn't catch his own dinner!

I have seen a web site were 2 boxer dogs are standing on their back legs and play punching each other like real boxers, funny. Duke would love a round with 1 of them.

When the 101 Dalmatians film came out, my mam said (although if me mam said it, it probably isn't true)that this breed was bred to trot alongside the Queens carriage. Just a bit of useless info there if anyone is interested apart from me.

They were originally bred to guard coaches and carriages, and then became purely decorative carriage-accompaniments. As such they still need plenty of exercise, and can trot at a steady pace for many miles.

So your mother was nearly right!

wahay I'll take a nearly right, that would be a change. She normally talks blinkin rubbish. :)

> he wouldn't have survived if he couldn't catch his own dinner!

I doubt with their exagerated shape and lack of speed they would be able to catch enough food to keep them going if they had to look after themselves. It's OK to be able to run on and on for hours, but not if it's for a meal!

> I doubt with their exagerated shape and lack of speed they would be able to catch enough food to keep them going if they had to look after themselves.

Hey if they were hungry enough you'd be suprised. :)

LOL joanne 1000, my grandmother dug a 2m square pool so her newfie could lie down in a tailor made puddle of his own :)

> When the 101 Dalmatians film came out, my mam said (although if me mam said it, it probably isn't true)that this breed was bred to trot alongside the Queens carriage. Just a bit of useless info there if anyone is interested apart from me.

My Dalmatian trots along.... He always has to get there... you can not stop and ponder because we have to keep going and going and going!!! He seems to really like horses too.... We come across lots out in our woods, he seems to "salute" them ! Definatly showing his breeding.

Natural instinct again there then. I think it's brilliant me. Evolution.