More and more on the forum I have seen people advocating homeopathic remedies for dogs. I started this thread, not to be argumentative but in the hope that I might be proved wrong in my beliefs :)

I am by no means a closed minded person. In fact, long before herbal remedies became "fashionable", I had a Grandmother who continued to treat many ailments with the use of herbs. This was something I continued and have used alongside prescription medications both for myself and for my dogs.

In recent years, studies which have concluded efficacy of homeopathy have been absolutely demolished. So much so that Sir David King (advisor to the government) declared that he believed homeopathy caused more harm than good.

I found this a rather interesting article http://www.futuremedicine.com/doi/pdf/10.2217/17584272.4.1.7 written by a complementary therapist.

So, I would be interested if anyone could provide me with an evidence base on the efficacy of homeopathy :) Not anecdotal evidence - we all have stories of how our dogs have made recoveries from using a particular "remedy".

>More and more on the forum I have seen people advocating homeopathic remedies for dogs.
>In fact, long before herbal remedies became "fashionable", I had a Grandmother who continued to treat many ailments with the use of herbs.

I could well be misunderstanding your post, but it seems as though you're equating herbal medicine with homoeopathy; they're very different practices.

I feel the same as you Colliecrew, Herbal remedies are fine in some cases and providing you have knowable advice I have nothing against them being used on dogs or other animals but Homoeopathic is a different matter, to ignore those trained in medicine and go with something that has never been acknowledged to have any benefit beyond the placebo is totally irresponsible and should never be inflicted on animal or anyone who is unable to make a reasoned decision for themselves.

If a person decides to use Homoeopathic remedies on themselves that is up to them but they should never prescribe for their or anyone else's pets, to do so for other peoples pets would be illegal it the remedy was in fact anything but water.

For me personally I feel that the first rule of finding out if something works.....is simply to try it....and observe the results.

In my experience Homeopathic Vets are already fully qualified in the conventional RCVS way...have worked for many years using that training....and then discovered that something is amiss with the way they are treating the animals in their care. They then go on to do further years of studying.....and gain further qualifications to become Homeopathic Vets.

One of the rants against Homeopathy is that it is merely a placebo. Whilst one could maybe accept that as far as people are concerned...I can't see how it can be an argument in the case of animals. Animals don't know they are being treated.....you can't explain to an animal that if they take this pill or that pill it will make them feel better (or not).....if they get better under Homeopathic Treatment (sometimes after lengthy periods of conventional treatment having failed) then it is absolutely unmistakeable and undeniable that Homeopathic Treatment has worked for them. It cannot in any way be described as the "placebo effect" in relation to animals.....

One of the other problems is that you can't patent a natural substance. There is no money in Homeopathic medicine for the big drug companies so you can rest assured that Big Pharma and any companies/organisations with vested interests will seek to ridicule natural medicine.

Following is a link to one of the pages of Christopher Days website.

There is a clamour for only 'evidence-based medicine' to be acceptable. This same voice calls for homeopathy to be banned for lack of evidence. Sometimes this goes beyond the polemic into rabid rant. This seems very strange in the light of a recent BMJ report on evidence-based medicine (EBM), which states that, of 2,404 human treatments so far reviewed, only 15% were shown to be to be effective. 47% were of unknown effect. This report did not address harmful side-effects, nor did it draw attention to the fact that, in most cases, the evidence is only that a drug can suppress a symptom of the disease, rather than aid the patient to overcome a disease. One cannot expect modern conventional veterinary medicine to fare much better. If calls to ban medicine that is not evidence-based were to prevail, what would happen to 85% of conventional medicine?

http://www.alternativevet.org/prejudice.htm

Plenty of vets, mine included, will use homeopathy when there is no conventional alternative, or in the case of one of my dogs when the conventional medicine was causing more harm than good.  I agree that it is irresponsible to go down this route against the advice of medical professionals, and to avoid the more conventional proven treatments, but when conventional medicine has nothing to offer, why not?

there is no conventional alternative

Can you give me examples of a situation where there is no other alternative?

>One of the rants against Homeopathy is that it is merely a placebo. Whilst one could maybe accept that as far as people are concerned...I can't see how it can be an argument in the case of animals. Animals don't know they are being treated.....you can't explain to an animal that if they take this pill or that pill it will make them feel better (or not).....

It's been shown that if the owner believes that the treatment will make a difference, they'll have programmed themselves to see a positive result, that might not actually be there. Such an owner also often subconsciously alters their own behaviour towards the animal, and this altered attitude is what the animal then reacts to.

Equally, an owner who mistrusts conventional medicine will give out 'negative vibes' (for want of a better phrase) when using them, which the animal will mirror, being as highly sensitive to mood as they are.

This is how the placebo effect also applies to animals.

it seems as though you're equating herbal medicine with homoeopathy

Oh gosh no! Sorry if I wasn't clear. I was trying to say that I am not averse to using medication outwith "conventional". I have long used herbal remedies. Homeopathy is another kettle of fish altogether!

One of the rants against Homeopathy is that it is merely a placebo. Whilst one could maybe accept that as far as people are concerned...I can't see how it can be an argument in the case of animals.

As someone else has pointed out, placebo can come from a secondary source and not from just the primary source. In this case, the owner "sees" a difference. In addition, you also cannot rule out the "if I had done nothing at all, what would happen". Take for example the post you made to another thread regarding homeopathic treatment for eyes. You added something to cooled boiled water and bathed the eye. In my opinion, I would have got the same effect from using just the cooled boiled water without the homeopathic element.

any companies/organisations with vested interests will seek to ridicule natural medicine.

I agree :) This is why I seek to find articles from independent sources and not from anyone with a vested interest. Indeed, the link I originally posted is from someone who you would think would want to find success in the use of homeopathy - a complementary therapist! Evidence based practice is, in my opinion, the only way we should be treating our dogs. However, the key is in finding an evidence base which is not biased (whether that be evidence for the efficacy of herbal, conventional or homeopathy). If I wanted to know the efficacy of a conventional medication, would I look at the studies from or sponsored by the manufacturing drug company? Not on your life!! The same applies to homeopathy.

Therefore, I have looked at systemic reviews from non biased sources on the use of homeopathy and, from my findings, it has been found to be no more effective than placebo.

but when conventional medicine has nothing to offer, why not?

I fear that there is a heightened risk for people's vulnerabilities to be played on. I have no idea how much a homeopathic consultation costs but I would assume it isn't what I would class as cheap. In addition, and as I highlighted in my OP, there is a concern that a treatment with no evidence base can do more harm than good.

Someone suggested treating my dog in renal failure with homeopathy. Perhaps a useful opportunity to see first hand for myself if it worked. After all, this is something I could measure through monitoring blood work. However, I will not "experiment" with the health of my dog using unproven remedies. I researched night after night after night for myself and, after discussion with my trusted vet, we agreed a treatment plan using proven remedies. I am pleased to say he is still here over two years later and continues to have improved blood work from initial testing.

I just cannot understand why people can "treat" the animals they care deeply for using a "treatment" which they have no proven results for.

In recent years, studies which have concluded efficacy of homeopathy have been absolutely demolished. So much so that Sir David King (advisor to the government) declared that he believed homeopathy caused more harm than good.


I have very little belief or trust in homeopathy and wouldn't dream of using it on my animals, or at least that's what I thought until desperate measures were needed with my GSD and I tried a Bioflow collar with wonderful results ( I imagine this counts as homeopathy ) so I guess I should eat my words. However this is the only thing I have tried and still am not a true believer in homeopathy over conventional medicine whatever I have seen with my own eyes.

One of my dogs has a retained testicle... there's nothing they can 'give' him for that, they could obviously remove it.  It's actually appeared since he was given a remedy, obviously I understand that this doesn't prove anything at all though!  But it is certainly an example of a situation where conventional veterinary medicine can't help him.

The vet I go to are in the process of putting together a scientific study on the treatment of advanced cancers homeopathically, in situations where no more can be done for them.  It doesn't hurt to try does it, so long as the dog's quality of life is not deteriorating?

Hi Sue :)

Bioflow collars are not classed as homeopathy. Homeopathy involves giving miniscule doses of substances called remedies that, according to homeopathy, would produce the same or similar symptoms of illness in healthy people if they were given in larger doses.

>I fear that there is a heightened risk for people's vulnerabilities to be played on. I have no idea how much a homeopathic consultation costs but I would assume it isn't what I would class as cheap. In addition, and as I highlighted in my OP, there is a concern that a treatment with no evidence base can do more harm than good.

I totally agree that there are 'quacks' out there, who will no doubt exploit people when they are most vulnerable, but I think it's unfair to apply this to the whole profession.  The vets that I go to are extremely well equipped with state of the art scientific equipment, are very clued up on the science, etc, but will resort to homeopathy.  They are, if anything, cheaper than the other vets I have been to, and the remedies that are given are a couple of pounds at most. 

I would be very unsure about treating a seriously ill dog homeopathically, and there is no way that I would do it if there was a conventional, proven alternative... I agree in those cases it can do more harm than good.

Please tell me there isn't a homeopathic remedy which claims to resolve undescended testicles!!!!!!

in situations where no more can be done for them. It doesn't hurt to try does it

You see CVL, this is my worry. People will readily part with vast sums of money to find something which will help our pets or people we love. I become very anxious about anything which claims to offer a remedy based on nothing more than someone, somewhere at some time in history saying it will work. We grasp at anything but, let's not forget, people are making money out of such desperation based on absolutely no scientific evidence. Even worse, there are some people who will look to such remedies as a first option!! Fine if you are toying with your own health but to do so with our animals, in my opinion, borders on negligence. I am sorry if this offends, it is absolutely not intended to in any way. I am still hoping to be proved wrong and I will find that there is an evidence base for homeopathy. I don't resist change - I embrace it but only if it is of benefit :)

I do see what you're saying, and you may find this ridiculous after what I've said, but I'm not totally 'sold' on homeopathy myself!  It makes absolutely no sense, there is little evidence, and I'm a research scientist for a living... so it definitely goes against the grain somewhat.  I just wanted to post on this thread because I fully trust the vets that I go to, they are not exploiting me... nor am I being a negligent dog owner... I just think that there are situations in which there is nothing to lose, except for £3 at most. 

you may find this ridiculous after what I've said, but I'm not totally 'sold' on homeopathy myself!

LOL! I love your honesty :)

It's not that I don't see your point. IF I was completely out of ALL options and everything had been exhausted and someone came along and said "listen, these tiny little pills of exceptionally diluted remedies will work and so will washing the dogs paws in morning dew"...yep, I would be buying those pills by the bucketload and up every morning at dawn to collect the morning dew!! But, that's about my vulnerability and my desperation. How could I sell that to anyone else?

However, there is a suggestion from some of using homeopathic remedies as a substitute for proven treatments. I cannot agree with that.

I would love for it to work! I have one dog on long term medication which has horrible side effects. I would be mad if I didn't want an alternative treatment which had no side effects! However, whilst homeopathy will claim to be able to treat it, I will never risk his life on something unproven.

I will never risk his life on something unproven
I'm not happy that drugs are scientifically proven!  Having worked for a drug company, I know that they can 'prove' whatever they want to prove. :(

Having worked for a drug company, I know that they can 'prove' whatever they want to prove.

Absolutely and we would be naive to think otherwise. However, it goes back to my earlier point of researching evidence from independent sources and not from those with a vested interest :)

Why would anyone without a vested interest spend time and money to prove anything?  As far as I'm aware, the drug companies are the only ones with the money to carry out research.  Universities doing research are sponsered by them, hospitals, GPs and Vets are supported by them.
But there are a growing number of conventionally qualified Vets (as that's what we're talking about) who are qualifying as Homeopathic Vets. 

The 'alternative' company that I deal with has 2 Royal Warrants, meaning that they have supplied goods to the Queen and the Prince of Wales for more than 5 years.  As far as I'm concerned, if they are OK for them, then they're OK for me! :) :) 

Bioflow collars are not classed as homeopathy.

Many thanks for that Colliecrew, in that case I definitely don't have belief in homeopathy

sillysue people may have knocked the good of Bioflow collars without actually ever having tried 1, you may have been sceptical yourself. Therefore unless homeopathy has been given a chance by someone to see for themselves then may be it's not to be knocked at. :)

Therefore unless homeopathy has been given a chance by someone to see for themselves then may be it's not to be knocked at

So by that reasoning, I could advocate a "treatment", have no evidence base for it's efficacy and charge people money for the privilege of my "expertise" with nobody justified in questioning it unless they have tried it?

Gosh, I've chosen the wrong line of work!! :))

Why would anyone without a vested interest spend time and money to prove anything?  As far as I'm aware, the drug companies are the only ones with the money to carry out research.  Universities doing research are sponsered by them, hospitals, GPs and Vets are supported by them.

I do concur with such concerns. However, it would be deeply unethical for a funded research project to be slanted to achieve positive results. Such instances do not stand up to peer review or meta-analysis. Likewise, Pfizer have recently come under deep criticism for failing to publish studies with negative outcomes carried out on a particular drug. In addition, we have the benefit of heavy regulation with respects to the claims drug companies can make. There is no such regulatory safety net provided for homeopathic medicine.

meaning that they have supplied goods to the Queen and the Prince of Wales for more than 5 years.  As far as I'm concerned, if they are OK for them, then they're OK for me!

I would need a little more assurance than that :)

If it was a desperate measure and my dogs life depended on it, because all else had failed, providing he wasn't suffering I would probably have a shot at a product if someone offered it to me. There are of course major health risks even with 'normal' everyday medications perscribed by the vet. My GSD was on Atopica for a certain problem and there is no doubt in my mind this caused him to have cancer and die.

If it was a desperate measure and my dogs life depended on it, because all else had failed, providing he wasn't suffering I would probably have a shot at a product if someone offered it to me

I know and this was something I said earlier too. However, the purpose of this thread was for someone to provide me with evidence that homeopathy was proven to work. Not something to be tried when I was desperate. There are people who advocate homeopathy above all other treatments.

Homeopathy claims to treat epilepsy. I have a dog on phenobarbitone for grand mal seizures. The drug is likely to kill him. Would I remove him from phenobarbitone and treat with homeopathy which would not have the same side effects? Yes I would  if someone could provide conclusive evidence that homeopathy can be used as successfully as conventional medication.

It's a tuffy. Hopefully we all find the answer to this 1, as I would prefer to use something other than certain drugs out there in the future. :)

Likewise, Pfizer have recently come under deep criticism for failing to publish studies with negative outcomes carried out on a particular drug.
Tip of the iceberg! :(

Homeopathy claims to treat epilepsy. I have a dog on phenobarbitone for grand mal seizures. The drug is likely to kill him. Would I remove him from phenobarbitone and treat with homeopathy which would not have the same side effects? Yes I would  if someone could provide conclusive evidence that homeopathy can be used as successfully as conventional medication.
That's very sad.  I'm really sorry.  But as you rightly say, this conventional medicine isn't going to cure him.  In fact it will have the opposite effect. :( :(
Have you considered consulting a Homeopathic Vet?  They are not quacks - they are all conventionally trained but their experience has led them in a different direction.  They are experienced in both types of Veterinary medicine and I'm sure would talk to you about their personal experiences of treating seizures with both methods.

I don't think that any of us are really disagreeing about the fact that we all just want the best for our pets - and ourselves too! :)  Making the best choices is not always easy.

>But as you rightly say, this conventional medicine isn't going to cure him.  In fact it will have the opposite effect.

Never say never. I had an epileptic dog, who had grand mal fits several times a week, but these were gradually reduced and then stopped totally by the use of conventional medicine. After a totally fit-free year we started to gradually reduce the dosage, and after two years it was phased out entirely. She never had another fit for the rest of her life (another 10 years).

You are absolutely right Westcoast - we all do want what is best for our dogs :)

I remember crying a river when I had to give my dog his first dose of Phenobarbitone. I knew the terrible side effects he was going to have to go through. However, after 4 grand mals in one day, I felt I had no choice.

Have you considered consulting a Homeopathic Vet?

This is the thing, I wouldn't do it. I know there is no way I would risk taking him off Phenobarbitone without concrete evidence of efficacy of an alternative. I am almost willing for someone to prove me wrong about homeopathy. If it worked, I would be the first to use something which didn't have the side effects associated with conventional (and many herbal) medicines. The whole reason I researched homeopathy was the desire to have an alternative. Sadly, for me, the evidence just wasn't to be found :(

That's fantastic JG!! You must have been nervous reducing the medication!! I know I would be! Grand mals are possibly the worst thing I have ever had to witness in my dogs.

>Grand mals are possibly the worst thing I have ever had to witness in my dogs.

They're terrifying. The only good thing about them is the realisation that they're far worse for the observer than the sufferer, if there's any similarity to humans who have grand mal seizures. Weaning her off the phenobarbitone was a slow process; dropping by a quarter of a 30mg tablet each month (she was on two tablets daily), and watching her like a hawk. But it was successful with her; however I know others who have to be on medication for life - but even they usually reach a ripe old age.

There is a world of difference between a gunky eye and a chronic state like epilepsy and renal failure.

CollieCrew my heart goes out to you...at the risk of being anecdotal....my partner's boy suffered 4 grand mal seizures...vet precribed him rectal diazepam and began tests. Diagnosed idiopathic epilepsy meaning that there is nothing wrong with your dog except he has grand mal seizures. A month later another cluster of 4 grand mal seizures. My partner gave the rectal diazepam but the fits wouldn't stop. He was rushed in at 11pm and within a 48 hour period my OH was advised twice that he may need to consider euthanasia. When we went to pick him up he couldn't stand and the vet said that he may be brain-damaged and may never walk again. He came out with a prescription for 150mg pheno per day, a lifetime of medication and blood tests looming....and serious side effects to try and manage. (£900)

I asked for immediate referral to a Homeopathic Vet..helped carry him to the car and took him home. We too cried rivers and the world stood still.

The Homeopathic consultation was like a breath of fresh air. (£169 including first prescription) Every single detail of lifestyle is noted...every single detail of the seizures were noted...every single detail of his case history from the conventional vets were looked at. Everything you say about your dog is of interest in a Homeopathic sense and may be of vital importance.

We are 4 months and 4 prescriptions into Homeopathic treatment. Homeopathy is like "peeling away the layers of an onion" and each prescribed remedy is dealing with certain aspects of his history. Chase is down from 150mg per day to 15mg in the morning and 15mg at night which our conventional vet says is now below therapeutic range and we are just about to reduce the dose further. His quality of life is back to normal and he runs and plays football like nothing ever happened (although even on 15mg it is still noticeable that the drug is effecting him) Will Chase ever fit again..?? I don't know that yet. Do I feel confident of a cure...?? Yes....I know he is in excellent and capable hands and Homeopathically we have only just scratched the surface.

We all have our own comfort levels....and the fear of side effects from the Pheno and Diazepam was for me.....much much bigger.....than the fear of seeking a Homeopathic Cure.

Either way CollieCrew.....I offer my love and support for what you are going through x

Freedom of spirit what a lovely story I hope chase goes on to live a good life. I use homeopathy particulaly as I have sil who retrained from conventional vet nursing to be homeopath. However and it is a big however I remain unconvinced and like f of s friend tend to use it along side conventional as an unless we are talking a kind of first aid. I would and have done that with serious illness and wouldnt hesitate again
eg whispa has just started a sticky eye now without homeopathy I would watch it for a day or two it isnt bothering him and its just slight. With advice form sil I am bathing with salt water (not homeopathic obviously) and giving him a remedy Now believe me if it gets worse or bothers him I will be at the vet tomorrow but I am monitoring.
I  used both conventional (radiotherapy) and homeopathy for my flat coat with cancer all I know is she recovered from two of them. The homeopathy was to support her sysetm while she had treament The cat who broke his leg like wise. Who knows the truth of the recoveries but for me it is worth a look everytime. I do however have one big advantage, the cost of treatment and for me is very little. If I had to make a descion that most do  I am afraid I would still stay conventional until I had definite proof or I had run out of alternatives and my animal wasnt suffering.
 

Hi FOS and thank you for such a warm and lovely post :)

I am keeping everything crossed for Chase and truly hope that he can remain seizure free without the need for Phenobarbitone. If there was ever a medication to motivate a person to find an alternative, Phenobarbitone would certainly be a contender.

In some ways I admire your faith in homeopathy and in other ways I simply can't understand it. I hope that doesn't sound rude or disrespectful, it really isn't intended to be. In some ways I would love to have that faith to say..."hey, let's try it". However, for me, that faith isn't there which makes the stakes too high. I need something more tangible and concrete. Not a guarantee but something more than "this remedy is better than placebo".

Perhaps one day a study will support the faith you have in homeopathy. Then you can come back here and holler at me "I bloomin' well told you so!!" And you know what, I bloomin' well hope I AM proved wrong :)

Thank you to everyone for sharing your views on this - it's great that we can sit at opposite ends of the spectrum and yet discuss it respectfully :)

Keep us updated on Chase xx

It's been shown that if the owner believes that the treatment will make a difference, they'll have programmed themselves to see a positive result, that might not actually be there. Such an owner also often subconsciously alters their own behaviour towards the animal, and this altered attitude is what the animal then reacts to.

I guess we could say the same about conventional drugs JG :)

>I guess we could say the same about conventional drugs JG

Certainly - the placebo effect works for all things. However conventional drugs have been scientifically proven to work in double-blind tests, which to my knowledge (I'd be happy to be proved wrong!) has never happened with homeopathic treatments.

I believe there is room for both....

I believe there is room for prayer too, but I don't believe it should be prescribed on the NHS or charged for!

In some ways I admire your faith in homeopathy and in other ways I simply can't understand it. I hope that doesn't sound rude or disrespectful, it really isn't intended to be. In some ways I would love to have that faith to say..."hey, let's try it".

I have to have far more than faith in something before I would say "hey lets try it" on any of my loved ones be they animals or people.... Faith implies trusting in something that you have no idea if its real or not...

Being a 60's child I grew up being an animal rights campaigner and anti-vivisectionist...and have since I can remember....tried to make ethical choices in what products I buy so that I don't unwittingly contribute to another sentient being's suffering. So maybe its easier for me to understand Homeopathic Principals far more than I understand the suffering caused (on a global scale) by conventional allopathic medicine...

Homeopathy postulates the "Vital Force" in all living things.
Dis-Ease and the symptoms of Dis-Ease are the physical body's way of attempting to eliminate the Dis-Ease.
A set of symptoms like diarreah...sickness...pus...runny noses...and in this case convulsions....are the body's expression of an attempt at elimination. (Convulsions being a Violent Attempt :()

Allopathic medicine...conventional drugs...are surpressive in nature....so we give anti-inflammatories...anti-sickness....anti diarreah...anti-allergies...anti-biotics....and given too often these surpress the symptoms..... and drive them further and deeper into the body....to eventually affect more vital organs like kidneys...liver...brain..etc (It is notable how often a skin allergy surpressed by steroids will keep recurring again and again....ie it isn't cured by the steroids...it has only been driven further in...and the body will keep attempting to drive it out again)
  
Homeopathic medicine is based on whatever symptoms a natural substance can cause in a body....it can also cure ("Like cures Like")
Homeopathic medicine is based on a strict discipline of provings (symptom pictures) in the Materia Medica
It isn't even neccessary to give a Dis-Ease a name. It is only neccessary to match the individual's set of symptoms to the "symptom picture" of one of the Remedies in the Materia Medica.
(The "little white tablets" are only a carrier for each diluted natural substance...Remedy...of which their are now approx 3000 different Remedies)

I have given myself a working knowledge (not belief...not faith) of some of the provings in the Materia Medica...and proven to myself that they do indeed assist the body to eliminate a set of symptoms. However when it comes to a chronic condition like convulsions.... then I wouldn't even begin to "try something out". He is now in the hands of a Homeopathic Vet with a vast amount of knowledge and years of experience.

In fact I have so much respect for their codes of ethics.....that if I am ever seriously ill....then I'm going straight to a Homeopathic Vet myself :) 
       

JG -So are you saying then that a fully qualified professional Vet (RCVS) who has seen something amiss with conventional medicine.....who has then undergone further years of studying....in order to gain a further Homeopathic Veterinary qualification......is not to charge for their considerable expertise and knowledge of both schools of thought...?? I can't imagine why anyone would seek to deny another individual their freedom to choose...??

(If prayer was the answer then the world would be a much nicer place than it is at the minute...)

>If prayer was the answer then the world would be a much nicer place than it is at the minute...

Remember that with prayers, sometimes the answer is "No" ...

Faith implies trusting in something that you have no idea if its real or not...

Faith, in this situation, means (to me) that there is no factual evidence to support homeopathy.

Homeopathic medicine is based on whatever symptoms a natural substance can cause in a body....it can also cure ("Like cures Like")
Homeopathic medicine is based on a strict discipline of provings (symptom pictures) in the Materia Medica
It isn't even neccessary to give a Dis-Ease a name. It is only neccessary to match the individual's set of symptoms to the "symptom picture" of one of the Remedies in the Materia Medica.
(The "little white tablets" are only a carrier for each diluted natural substance...Remedy...of which their are now approx 3000 different Remedies)

I understand what homeopathy "claims" to do - what I have asked for is actual proof that it has a beneficial effect (beyond placebo effect). That proof does not exist. In fact, proof exists to the contrary. So, to me, people who use homeopathy are operating on a faith in an unproven treatment.

It is notable how often a skin allergy surpressed by steroids will keep recurring again and again....ie it isn't cured by the steroids...it has only been driven further in...and the body will keep attempting to drive it out again)

Of course, steroids treat effects of a condition - they don't treat the condition. I would question any vet who would blindly prescribe steroids without asking "why". Whilst a "why" was being ascertained, I would (depending on discomfort of my pet) happily give steroids to control symptoms and reduce distress.

Being a 60's child I grew up being an animal rights campaigner and anti-vivisectionist...and have since I can remember....tried to make ethical choices in what products I buy so that I don't unwittingly contribute to another sentient being's suffering. So maybe its easier for me to understand Homeopathic Principals

I am not sure that the two go hand in hand to be fair. I would consider myself one who makes ethical choices and campaign for animal rights. However, as my previous posts on fox hunting show, these are formed from a wealth of reading and research. There is almost an insinuation that those who don't buy into homeopathy would not be concerned with ethics and animal rights.

I'm going straight to a Homeopathic Vet myself

Until proven otherwise, I will stick with my GP :)

in order to gain a further Homeopathic Veterinary qualification......is not to charge for their considerable expertise and knowledge

There are some that would argue that it is unethical to charge people who offer "treatment" not founded in fact

There are some that would argue that it is unethical to charge people who offer "treatment" not founded in fact

And these are precisely the very beings who become incredibly wealthy after 'proving' the drugs they are selling work - simply because they have tested them and there is proof, although to what measure/end we don't know, as we are not privy to that information.  But, as I said before, there is room for both conventional and homeopathy.
The problem  I see with drugs prescribed by some vets and gp's are the side affetcts, so if we can use something such as homeopathy or another alternative that helps, without the side affects then why not?  I have both a homepathic vet who uses both, a gp who practices acupuncture, and I do not belive them to be 'unethical'.

As for prayer, well, I think that should be discussed on a different forum, or at least a different thread.  

I have used and still use both conventional and homeopathy; both have worked in various ways for myself, my family and my dogs - I would hate to be denied either.
Unfortunately, as JG implied, homeopathy has not been proven - simply because no 'body' would benefit in monetary terms to pour millions into research, to come up with an answer they would not gain from.

I believe we should keep our minds open, and if something works for the good and for whatever reason then why the hell not use it! 
I am an asthmatic, have been since being a baby, had so many drugs it is scary, and I would never come off the preventative medication I am prescribed, however, I started a juicing diet in July and found myself not using the inhalers and medication, I have now  cut down to half what I was taking.  So, not homeopathy but an alternative diet! 
From my experience it is naive to rule out things we are not 'told' to use.  But I understand this isn't for everyone and of course there will always be the herd mentality which keep huge corporations happy :) but at what cost :(

>simply because no 'body' would benefit in monetary terms to pour millions into research, to come up with an answer they would not gain from.

The homoeopathic societies and remedy manufacturers would benefit tremendously.

What i simply cannot understand is why so many people still use homeopathic nosodes when the homeopathic vets they say they have so much faith in say they do not work. Surely if even a homeopathically trained vet says they are a waste of time then why waste your money?

when the homeopathic vets they say they have so much faith in say they do not work. Surely if even a homeopathically trained vet says they are a waste of time then why waste your money?

I think you need to get your facts right lucyandmeg, we have a homeopathic vet who 100% recommends nosodes and definitney NOT a waste of time, the 2 vets who practice homeopathy in this practice treat their own pets with nosodes. 

If you think about it nosodes work in a similar way as conventional vaccination - by adding a little of the disease (treating like with like) only in homeopathy the nasty substances like mercury and lots of other dangerous chemicals are not added.  And no animal has suffered an adverse reaction from homepathy, whereas they have and still do with conventional vaccine.  In fact, quite often vaccines will actually cause the disease they are supposed to be protecting.

Also vaccine initially to protect pups is not a bad thing, but it is the year on year boosters that increase the danger.  Always worth remembering that once an animal or person for that matter has immunity to a disease, the immunity is there for quite a long time and to booster yearly is just not necessary and is dangerous.

But I understand this isn't for everyone and of course there will always be the herd mentality which keep huge corporations happy

Gosh, I'm not sure if that's meant to be insulting but it does actually read quite rudely. I don't consider myself to have "herd mentality" just because I question the efficacy of something.

homeopathy has not been proven - simply because no 'body' would benefit in monetary terms

Actually, that's not true. There have been numerous studies who have attempted to prove efficacy. However, none have succeeded in proving robust enough to stand up to external scrutiny and peer review.

if we can use something such as homeopathy or another alternative that helps, without the side affects then why not?

Well, why not indeed. I've said repeatedly that the reason I turned to homeopathy research was a desire to find evidence that it did work - not that it didn't!! Sadly, what I found is that it is not an effective "treatment".

I do not belive them to be 'unethical'.

I disagree. I think that any "treatment" that misleads to be unethical. I have seen homeopaths who claim to be able to manage a vast array of medical problems. On what basis can these claims be made?

As I have repeatedly said - if someone can provide me with information to the contrary, I am more than happy to read further :)

"The results of one well-controlled study suggest that parvovirus nosodes are completely ineffective in preventing parvoviral disease under experimental challenge conditions. Until well-designed studies are completed and thousands of pet owners make a concerted effort to help with potential retrospective studies, nosodes remain an unknown quantity and I do not recommend using them as a sole strategy for disease prevention."

This is an exert from an article by a homeopathic vet

>>when the homeopathic vets they say they have so much faith in say they do not work. Surely if even a homeopathically trained vet says they are a waste of time then why waste your money?
>I think you need to get your facts right lucyandmeg, we have a homeopathic vet who 100% recommends nosodes and definitney NOT a waste of time, the 2 vets who practice homeopathy in this practice treat their own pets with nosodes.

A homeopathic vet has recently stated in print:

"Unfortunately there are no reliable alternatives to vaccinations. Vaccinations stimulate an immune response in the body so that antibodies are produced, and the dog then has a measurable immunity. There are no alternatives that offer such guaranteed levels of protection. So-called homeopathic vaccinations are not vaccinations at all: they are homeopathic remedies (called nosodes) made out of the organisms that cause the disease. They are ot usually advocated by homeopathic vets as there is no evidence that they give any protection, and using them may create a false sense of security."

Yes, the homeopathic vet that my dogs go to has said the same thing.  She recommends titre testing and then using conventional vaccination if required (and the dog is healthy, as only healthy dogs should be vaccinated according to the manufacturers' guidelines).