Hi, do any of you stud owners prefer the "controlled mating".  I ask as we took my girl who was a maiden to a very experienced stud boy and owner last night.  I was asked to sit on a footstall with my legs under my girls tummy, hubby was asked to sit infront of her to hold her (she was also muzzled) stud boy eners the room when stud sniffs my girl and mounts, owner guides him in, we had a 15 min tie, although my girl was grumbly throughout.

After tie, he is taken out of the room to which stud owner asks hubby to sit on the floor, she flips my girl over on her back between hubbys legs, and he has to hold her back legs up in the air for about 10/15 mins then when she is allowed up and we leave a towel is placed under her like a nappy until we get into the car, was also instructed not to let her toilet until the morning.  We have to go back tomorrow as Val Brown says her window is 3/4 days.

What are your experiences on matings.

Debsx

We took our bitch to an experienced stud on her last season, no muzzle was used as she wasn't aggressive but was there if needed, she was held during the tie to stop her pulling away and another supported her under her tummy to stop her sitting during the tie but there were no flipping on the back or towel nappy thing malarkey s,he was allowed to go to the toilet about an hour after mating, 11 puppies were produced from this mating.

To be honest the methods used sounds a little old fashioned and I wouldn't allow any bitch to be flipped on her back as its stressful enough as it is, but that's my personal opinion.

wow thats all comes to mind , we let my boy sniff and play he kisses his girlfriends only had 2 but still lol....we then hold the girl he gets on himself once tied we hold both leads for my boys sake and the bitch incase she pulls away. the last girl we had here she got a litter of 12 pups , we put our boy away she played on our garden had a massive wee and a drink and she happly went home :) no legs up and no towel ,but she didnt walk tho my house lol

Think it is fairly normal to support the bitch and if needed guide the stud but it sounds as if this was very clinical but if they are successful then why change the way they do things.

I am against leaving the bitch and dog to there own devices that way lies the danger of injury to one or other or both the other way it is only the handlers that get bitten.

Ooooh sorry dont like that method at all!

I always put dog and bitch into our enclosed area with me, the owner and my husband or mum so there is 3 people, i allow the dogs to sniff and flirt to see the reactions of both parties, if he mounts and she stands i wait until he enters and starts tip toeing then me and the owner move in, i keep the bitch up, supporting the weight while owner is in front of his girl keeping her steady and calm, once my boy is done the 3rd person will help him to turn and then we all keep them calm until tie is over.

Once over my male is taken away, girl goes home. I always get the bitch to pee before the mating takes place, holding a bitch upside down is complete nonsense, the tie is the whole point of ensuring the sperm reaches the correct place so completely uneccessary and i would be horrified if that was my girl.

We repeat the process 48hrs later and that has always been successful.

I think things should be as natural as possible with humans there to keep both dogs safe....thats all, but thats my own way of doing things

I have always done matings in a similar way but  again would'nt dream of putting the bitch on her back or putting a nappy on , in giant breeds the bitch often needs supporting , afterwards we put the bitch away or she goes in the car ready to go home , and the dog to his respective area to calm down and make sure everything goes back in place

Sounds about right to me Mandy C, do remember a time when a similar post mating behaviour was advised for ladies as well, equally as silly.

As you say they do not understand the actual process involved to think that treating the bitch like that would help in any way, trouble is if that is what the stud owner wants then the bitch owner has little say in the matter if they wish to use that stud.

The lying the bitch down is not unusual, many feel that it stops anything coming out after the mating.  My girl lost quite a bit recently after being mated the floor was soaking LOL.  Didn't bother lying her down, but have known this to be done by many experienced old time breeders in many breeds and have to admit I have done it in the past.

Have to say never held the legs up for 15 minutes and definitely haven't stopped a bitch weeing, how do you do that LOL?

The stud produces thee sorts of ejaculation as far as I can remember, the first is water the second the actual sperm and then water again that is why there is a lot of fluid but it appears to be designed to wash the sperm to the end of the vagina which is very long in the bitch.

Some one correct if I have remembered this wrong I am a little hazy about it now.

a cork maybe ;) lol ive always let dogs meet and say hello before ,even when weve took our girls its always been done this way ,even with mid breed we had x

I do agree, my girl was quite stressed and panting heavily whilst laying on her back.  When I go back tomorrow I will say that I would prefer not to use this method as I feel its too stressful for my girl.

Debsx

I would say that forcing a dog to be on its back is naturally an extremely stressful position for it, after all dont some bitches lay on their back in submission?  Just rings a bit of 'CM' pin down to me :( :(

This does sound very wham bam to me...if a bitch needs to be muzzled the mating should not take place.
I do think that there should be some light control ie bitch is held gently to make sure she does not wriggle at the wrong moment or go for the dog. Both dog & bitch should be allowed to be introduced and make friends.
As long as the dog has done his job there is no need for tippping the bitch upside down plus she should be allowed to go to the toilet.

I understand the stud owner is doing there bit to make sure your bitch has resulting pups but it does not have to be quite so clinical.

yes imo Alfieshmalfie :(

the thing is lexy if your girl isnt ready for mating she could snap at the dog or owner ,so it there as a guid for me anyway! and if shes ready then no way would i need to use 1 x

> the thing is lexy if your girl isnt ready for mating she could snap at the dog or owner ,so it there as a guid for me anyway! and if shes ready then no way would i need to use 1 x

I have bred so know how a bitch should react

Doesn't sound like that stud dog owner knows much about how puppies are conceived, does it. Just imagine how easy it would be to avoid puppies being born from accidental matings if all you had to do was NOT put the bitch upside down and NOT stop her from having a wee!

I have come across ONE stud dog owner who took the clinical approach with holding the bitch and muzzling her, and I hated it. All the others have done what I do -let the dogs meet and play and flirt and then get on with it, and you just carefully hold them still once tied to avoid injury. Much nicer for everyone involved. The last mating I had done we did just that and it took just 5 minutes before we had a tie, dog and bitch very happy, and for the following hour after mating they played together. Just the one mating, bitch allowed to wee when she wanted, no upside down, and we got 9 pups from it.

i did say it was a guid for me.

flip my bitch on her back and Ill flip you!!!! yes...controlled matings are the norm in my breed but only in that both hounds are held onto and sometimes the stallion hound is assisted with his leg for a tie position....as for the rest.....I dont think so!!! :(((

Agree with all that Mandy says - and we have quite different size dogs!  :-)

I only ever once saw a clinical mating, when I took my girl somewhere and I was asked to hold her facing me.  She didn't even see the dog that mounted her, and she was definitely not ripe for mating, she cried out.  My dogs don't enter on command.

Like Mandy I allow sniffing and flirting, and rely heavily on the dogs instinct.  I honestly believe that it gives a far higher chance of pregnancy.

The turning on the back thing went out with the ark surely?  I only ever saw it once, back in the 70's when I took a Toy Poodle for mating, and the stud owner held her on her back with her legs in the air. 

I always ask the potential stud dog owners how they like to carry out their matings and if they don't allow some form of interaction first then I don't use the dog.  I like the dog on lead to begin with and the bitch off until she feels a little more relaxed and go from there.  Whilst I have no problem steadying my girls if they are a little unsure, that is completely different to hanging onto her whilst the dog is let in to do his job whether the bitch is happy with it or not.  Don't get me wrong I don't want my girls to injure the stud dog any more than I want my girl scared out of her wits but I think with a little consideration on both sides, you have the best chance of ensuring a relaxed mating.

I know its mainly the stud dog owner who "makes the rules" so to speak but I only like to use someone's dog if they are willing to have some empathy with my bitch also.  My breed is high in numbers so I suppose I am in the lucky position to be able to consider this as part of the decision making.

To be honest, I think we would all love to have completely natural matings but I can see why stud dog owners don't allow it, but there are extremes.....

I wouldn't be happy if my girl wasn't even allowed to see the dog she was being expected to mate, surely a little mutual sniffing can do no harm.  Hopefully this would relax her and make her aware of what was about to happen.

I think that holding the bitch is sensible - you can never tell how they will react when the stud starts to do his job and no-one would want her, him or you to get hurt.  Muzzling - not happy about that, if the bitch is growling/aggressive, then she's either not ready or not the type one should be breeding from.  Once they have tied and stud back on all fours, then minimal assistance should be given - we just sit on the floor stroking them to reassure they're doing well and all is ok until she lets go of him.  I do think then the bitch should go straight to the car to relax and stud sort himself out - certainly no need to turn them upside down!

As regards to weeing - I've always been advised not to let her wee until we get home from stud - minimum 2 hour journey - to leave her overnight is down right cruel - and she could end up with bladder problems. 

Hi,

MY girl and her stud were both extremely well socialised and have excellent temprements (as I'd hope all dogs that we breed from are), they are gundogs so we didn't have the locking jaw problem.  We let them say hi to each other on the lead but this made them un-comfortable as they coldn't play prop and felt a bit trapped by us so we let them off knowing that they both had excellent re-calls were in a small confined space and we could grab them if anything kicked off.  Once the decided it was time after a bit of flirting poppy stood and we supported her head y her collar just so she couldn't shoot forward when he entered.  The stud dog guided him after a few missed thrusts - she was more than happy to stand and did not try to sit down.  After a minute or two the stud was allowed to drop down on the side he chose and his owner helped him over.  Poppy was really relaxed during her mating - we didn't want it to be any more stressful than neccessary she wsn't muzzled and she got to play first, we took her to the stud dog owners house for a play date before she came into season so she'd already had a good sniff around. 

We held them for the 50 minute tie but there was no flipping and holding her legs up and i wouldn't have allowed that, i would have had her muzzled if she needed it but i feel that generally if the bitch has a good temp and is ready it shouldn't bite?  or maybe i'm wrong.

I don't have much experience just my bitch and we had a very experienced breeder to guide us through the process.

Remember there are still teenagers out there that believe you can't get preg if your standing up and it sounds like some breeders still have these superstitions too

Susiebell - what do you mean by the "locking jaw problem"?

In 30 years, I've never had anything other than controlled matings in my breed and am happy with that.  I think it's a mistake to put human emotions onto dogs.  I've always used quality show dogs and so it's been important that they haven't been damaged - but then I have wanted to protect my bitches too!
I've had only one VERY old and experienced breeder elevate my bitch's rear end afterwards for 10 minutes or so but my bitches are easy natured and she wasn't in the least bit bothered with me talking to her.

Sounds a little ott to me, the matings I have seen are controlled in the sense that one person holds the bitch's head while the other guides the stud dog, particularly if an inexperienced stud or one liable to get overexcited and do things too quickly. But as others have said, muzzles should not be necessary, and holding them upside down to keep the sperm in is just an old wives tale, though I must admit I wish it worked! And I'm not sure how you stop a dog toileting all night if she needs to go before morning!! Nothing apart from the holding upside down to really worry about though, just a little old fashioned and unnessary, and at this stage if your girl was ok with that there isn't much point in trying to avoid that on the 2nd visit!

Personally I muzzel my own bitches as I dont want the responsiblity of my bitch scaring a Champion, all the dogs I have used have went on to win more CC's after I have used them I could not live with myself if my bitch finished their careers.

Only ever had one snarly bitch who was fine when she was actually tied just being a pain at the begining.

Second mating a bit of hit and miss, but we got there in the end with a ten min tie.  The stud boy is on his second CC and is waiting for the magic third; I guess the muzzling is more to protect him!!! My girl was still grumbly, but once a tie took place she quitened down.  Oh and she was let out to toilet 1 hour after we came home.

Well I would be horrified if any of my girls would go as far as biting a stud. 

If they aren't ready they are quite capable of telling him to buzz off, and he should understand when no means no with no-one getting hurt.

In our breed it is perfectly usual to supervise discreetly and holding is only needed to steady a bitch during the tie or stop one that jumps forward at the crucial moment to save the dog having to start all over again.

I have had both dog and bitch happily stay together (under supervision) for a week or more and able to mate at their leisure, supervised of course.

Well I would be horrified if any of my girls would go as far as biting a stud.

If they aren't ready they are quite capable of telling him to buzz off, and he should understand when no means no with no-one getting hurt.

Couldn't agree more. If they would go as far as biting, they should not be bred from!

My experience is very limited as i have only mated my bitch to one stud, however it was 5 days in the row the little minx.  They were allowed to run around and play and i watched them constantly. As soon as they were ready, i sat down in front of my bitch and talked to her calmly and she was fine.  Both of them kept trying to turn to the other one and wash each others faces, like they were really in love, it was really sweet.  They even laid next to each other and went to sleep afterwards.

If someone wanted my Megan to lay on her back for 15mins and not pee all night, i'd think they were having a laugh and trying to wind me up.

Weird.

Leanne
xxxx

I have never ever had to muzzle a dog.  Even my girl who has an eye problem (non-hereditary) and who doesn't like new dogs in her face is that much of a flirt at mating she would never ever think of nipping.  She to interestedin other matters.

IMO if a bitch is so unwilling to be mated that a muzzle is required then to proceed is tantamount to rape. A maiden bitch in particular is likely to be a little nervous when push comes to shove (as it were!) but firm but gentle control of her head to stop her pulling away at the last moment should be all that's needed. There should be no question of biting.

I've seen a bitch - not one of mine - do a very acceptable click of the teeth at a stud dog after about half an hour because she was getting fed up waiting for him to get it right!  But because of the close proximity of his muzzle as he lunged forward as she turned, she marked his face as she caught him with her lower canine.
Because I use flat, fabric slip leads, I always loosely wrap it around my bitch's muzzle as I hold her under her ears each side.  I consider that to be taking reasonable care and a responsible action to avoid a genuine accident.  If the bitch was distressed or really frightened, then of course it wouldn't be right to continue.

Yes, the time I only got slip matings and must have not been the right time as we had no puppies, Ellie did have a small snap at the dog after a good 40 minutes of trying, so I called it a day there and then rather than risk one of the 2 top dogs in our breed!!!! Next season we used the pre mate test and had no such problems.

I too like you West Coast usually slip the lead around a bitches nose. Not a muzzle but a little extra insurance against a snap. To be honest I would not worry too much about a nice gentle friendly bitch under normal circumstances getting a little grumpy during a mating...especially a maiden. It is a bit scary for them and they have no choice in the partner as we insist they accept the mate we have chosen for them. Nature would allow them to choose thier own mate, and they would spent quite some time in one anothers company before a mating took place. We expect them to walk in the door, a cursory sniff then a mating..not natural at all for dogs. As it happens I have never had a problem and most bitches seem to accept our funny ways without too much problem but to say that a bitch who has a snap at a stud dog should not be used is a little harsh I feel.
Granted a bitch that needs muzzling and forcing into a mating is wrong, No bitch should be forced into it but a little gentle control is often needed for a maiden if you are to get a mating.
Aileen

One of the doyennes of our breed, Kitty Heffer of the Friochan affix, always said that she would never condone the forced mating of bitches, and that in her long experience, bitches who were that unhappy about being mated would in any case more than likely miss - presumably because the timing/hormones were not right.

Steadying both parties during the tie is something else, or controlling the bitches head to ensure a mating, but muzzling her, trapping her and turning her upside down is ludicrous.

> Nature would allow them to choose their own mate, and they would spent quite some time in one anothers company before a mating took place.

This is exactly the scenario I prefer to try to recreate by either having both the pair stay with me or allow my bitch to stay with the stud dog owner (assuming they are experienced).

The dogs have become fast friends long before they come to the point of mating.

It is lovley to see them greet each other when they next meet at a show or social gathering.

> to say that a bitch who has a snap at a stud dog should not be used is a little harsh I feel.
>

A bitch that attacks and bites a stud is totally different to a warning snap, or maidenly reluctance, which any self respecting stud should take notice of an  cope with.

> Well I would be horrified if any of my girls would go as far as biting a stud.
>
> If they aren't ready they are quite capable of telling him to buzz off, and he should understand when no means no with no-one getting hurt.
>
> Couldn't agree more. If they would go as far as biting, they should not be bred from!

Agree 100% if a muzzle is necessary then the temperament is not correct.

My girls temprement is very good, to suggest rape I feel is very unkind. The owner has a policy that all maiden bitches wear this soft muzzle.  Yes my girl was growly, when he climbed on her, but she soon quitened down once the mating took place.  This time there was no flipping her on the back, my insistance that she lay down beside me and rolled over for her tummy to be stroked, she was very relaxed and quite enjoyed this somewhat old fashioned ritual.

I chose this stud boy for many reasons, also the owner is of the old school, but she does get things right, and is very fair and thorough. I was the novice in this mating and was guided by the stud owner and her many years (30) experience.

I feel reading all the posts that I subjected my girl to a painful frightening experience, and that most certainly was not the case.

I have not suggested rape...although I do think the dog & bitch should be allowed to greet each other. All matings which I have witnessed maiden and experienced(apart from one) the bitches have never been muzzled nor should they need to be. The bitch which was muzzled should never have been mated(due to temperament) and never produced(luckily).

I'm glad the second mating did not include the tipping up of legs..which is not necessary & quite pointless.

You gave your encounter of the first mating & asked for our experiences of matings, which folk are giving & the general consencous(sp?) is no need for tipping & have light restraint.

I did not suggest that you Lexy mentioned rape now did I, nevertheless it was mentioned!!!!  Yes you are right I did ask how other breeders/Stud dog owners how they oversee matings and many replies were very informative.

I think it's more than some people consider that if a muzzle turned out to be needed, ie if the bitch was really trying to attack rather than just grumbling because she was unsure, than that mating should not be done, not saying that your girl was raped because the SDO chose to have her wear one. :-)

> The bitch which was muzzled should never have been mated(due to temperament) and never produced(luckily).
>
>

I'd say that's awful breeding there, shameful, disgraceful. Forcing a dog. Tut tut. :(

>> The bitch which was muzzled should never have been mated(due to temperament) and never produced(luckily).
>>
>>
> I'd say that's awful breeding there, shameful, disgraceful. Forcing a dog. Tut tut. :-(

Neither the dog or bitch was mine...someone wanted help to mate her 2 dogs & had I known more then I would not have agreed to help...would deffinatley not do it again. The bitch wasnt forced, just muzzled.....I might add this was about 15 years ago

I know Lexy that it wasn't your dog kiddo. :)
I'm actually refering to the OP.

> I know Lexy that it wasn't your dog kiddo. :-)
> I'm actually refering to the OP.

But you quoted from my post, which I have explained

yeah I noticed after, I though you were refering to the op as well.
Got me wires x

Dukedog seems to me u still get your wires crossed tut tut indeed!!!!!