When it seems the champ dog always seems get the win (or green star or whatever)...we have only a slim chance it seems so one wonders is it really worth it.
I've been told by a few my boy is really nice but even in a class of his own he got a first but was only graded very good when there were others whom (even with my inexperience) were too small or even just not as nice etc...and the got excellent.. I am not complaining as such as I know what the game is....but I do enjoy going to shows but it is a bit deflating when lesser dogs are seeming to do better and I can't seem to get a reason why my guy is being overlooked.

He has one Green star but he was the only dog there and so got it by default sort of so while it is good the judge liked him enough to not withhold it....it wasn't properly earned, if you know what I mean....

I am sure his time will come but he has been in three shows and really only done so so.....

So what do you do...??
I would really like to know if he can improve or if he just doesn't have what it takes.... whether it be no ring presence or desire or some fault ....

Don't want it to seem like sour grapes just could really use some ideas..
And please don't say ask the ring craft....cuz they are all in love with him and think he is super..:-)

Cheers

How long have you been showing for?  It may just be that through inexperience you are not showing him at his best but you will get there.

Well I certainly wouldn't be basing my view on three shows, three years of shows maybe.

Think it depends on your attitude, most of us go to enjoy a day's activity with our dogs and a win is icing on the cake.

If I read your post correctly you have only done three shows so I think one green star is very good going, most people would not be thinking of winning at this stage but be pleased if they managed to show without too many problems.

It could be that your dog is just not good enough or that when you have not won others are better.

See you say that (in your experience) do you mean you have judged these dogs and found faults in them that your exhibit does not have?

My daughter and I have been showing our boy for a year (since he was 6 months old), we had never shown before and are very very new at it!

My view was and still is very much, we are at the bottom in the way of experience. I go to each and every show, not saying I will win this class, but to try to show my dog to the best of my abillity, at every show show I am up against stunning dogs wether it's an open or champ show. I am over the moon with my lad when he behaves well and does everything I ask of him, so wether he comes first or last it does'nt matter to me.

At each show I like to pick up little tips on how we can improve the next time we go out, and advice from a judge or another competitor has helped me anormesley, I will ask for feed back from other competitors on what went right or how I can improve next time.

My daughter who is 12 yrs has found it hard, not being placed on our outtings, but I say to her we are at the bottom, and you are competing with handlers which are the best! the last two outtings she has come first, which is fab and shows her she can enter a ring and be the best on the day.

I show first and fore most because I enjoy it, and more importantly my dog enjoys it,I love meeting new people, and I think it is great socialization for my lad.Being competitive would spoil it for me.

We have been very lucky winning at more and more shows, but that has come with the more experience we have had, when a judge places us first I am genuinly surprised each and every time, it does add to the day, but not make it, if you know what I mean.

I think it takes time. Time for you to become experienced in how to show him to his best, time for him to settle into showing (needs more than 3 shows usually), and sadly time for you to become noticed. In some breeds judges tend to go for the well known faces regardless of the dog, unfortunalty it happens and as the breeder of my dogs has always said "you can't keep a good dog down, eventually quality will win through"
We've only been showing for a couple of years and have very quickly learnt that even though you always "go to win" having a good day out regardless is paramount!
Good Luck.
Paula

> though you always "go to win"

not really otherwise why continue to show the veterans who are unlikely to win over the adults in their prime, or show puppies other than for experience.

One hopes one might win, but enjoyment of being with other like minded folk and lots of lovely dogs is the point.

Somehow taking part even with a dog you know can't win is better than spectating only. 

There's a lot of pleasure in seeing the best of what the breed has. 

The less good exhibits will show you what to avoid producing and what faults to try to avoid or what you could produce if your not careful or are unlucky.

If yours aren't as good then you aspire to breed better, if yours are beating the others then you look to where you can go to maintain and improve in the next generation so you can continue to be competitive.

> See you say that (in your experience)

What I did say even with my inexperience ...I know what faults my dog has however there are some in others which are easy to see...size  or incorrect coat just as two examples. We have been to more than three shows and I do realize we are at the bottom of the learning curve...and like I say I do know what the game is. We do have fun....but I think if we are not getting placed due to lack of experience it would be nice to know. I'm not getting feedback from ring craft or judges and in Northern Ireland there is a lack of ring craft classes which are close enough to me.  My son would like to learn how to handle my boy but at the end of the day he would also need feedback and the class we go to is great but not a lot of teaching..

I guess it is a bit of frustration on my part...I am not a patient person at the best of times.....

My boy yesterday had a problem with standing properly so we have started to clicker him for stacking himself and lifting his ears...so maybe that will help...

Does anyone know if it would be frowned upon to clicker him in the ring? just so he gets to understand...clicking about the house helps but not quite the same.

Thanks
I am not as bad as my first posts sounds....:-) it really is a matter of being told how good he is at class and then getting no feed back about why he isn't doing well even when he is the only one in the class.

Cheers

Well I would find clicking in the Ring distracting and likely to cause inattention in others exhibits, same as squeakers.

not really otherwise why continue to show the veterans who are unlikely to win over the adults in their prime, or show puppies other than for experience.

Well in my breed we have had plenty veterans win CCs this year and also a puppy getting a ticket. :) I just checked and out of our 9 shows with tickets this year (so a total of 18 tickets) 9 were won by veterans! The top winner for 2010 is a veteran.

Does anyone know if it would be frowned upon to clicker him in the ring? just so he gets to understand...clicking about the house helps but not quite the same.

Teach him a clicker word instead, then you don't need the clicker but it works the exact same way.

> Well in my breed we have had plenty veterans win CCs this year and also a puppy getting a ticket. :-)

I too have done both with veterans and puppies but the most likely to win are the adults in their prime, we don't go expecting to win anthing with pups and veterans (beyond Veteran and Best Puppy).

It is common for newcomers to looks at their first show dog as the epitome of the standard so it is essential to take lots of photos of him now.

In the future ( if he doesnt set the showworld on fire) you can either look back and say your inexperience pegged him back a little or that he is not quite as good as you first thought.

I have photos of all of mine in show pose right back to the late 70's and some of my swans were actually geese!

Sorry Freewayz I did misread your post. Thing is without getting your hands on you can't really tell how well built a dog is and depending on the breed, construction would come before size and coat unless the coat is totally unsuitable for the dogs purpose. In my breed the coat has to be as near correct as possible because it has to be weatherproof but the colour is another matter and providing it is grey the the shade of grey is not as important as say misplaced elbows and certainly not as  incorrect movement.

My way of thinking would mean I would place a dog with sound construction and good movement but a poor colour above one with good colour but poor movement - however it is all a matter of personal understanding of the standard and to some extent personal taste.

Are there judges of your breed at your ring craft class, if so ask them for a honest opinion saying you wish to know where your dog is less than good so you can work on showing him or exercising to help alleviate the problem.

Well I always go for fun. I walk in the ring with the best dog and walk out the ring with the best dog, if the judge thought other wise then that's there problem not mine lol. You have to have fun. If your dog is happy and relaxed its shows. And that's what you need, a dog that shows.  Treat each show as a learning day.  Use his favourite treats to get him to do what you want. If he gets it wrong give him a hug and try again. Never get angry with him or he will start to hate showing. And he will lose his sparkle in the ring. Don't worry about the dogs that always get first. There probably older than yours. Or just good at winking at the judge lol.  Funfunfun is all I can say, nothing looks better in the ring than a happy dog. And keep at it. It will make the wins even better. :)

We, like you are very new to showing and from time to time go through the "why do we bother" stages. It is a very uneven playing field at times, not least because different judges look for different priorities against the breed standard.  my boy often does well in an AV class but not so good in the breed.  Recently though, he was well placed in a champ show breed class beating dogs I can only believe to have been better than him (due to their titles) but assume on the day he moved better than they did and that was my judges priority - ie the ability to move well and potentially do his job, rather than the pretty face (looking forward to reading the critique) but I came out feeling equally guilty for beating them and ecstatic that my boys qualities were recognised on the day!  The ringcraft club, like yours, like my dog but up against 150 others at the average champ show, he generally doesn't get a look in!

We are lucky to have found a ringcraft that is very supportive. Apprenticeships have to be worked at and earn the respect of peers but most important, steer cleer of bitching (no matter how much you agree with what's being said).

My personal gripe is that I do think that sometimes my daughter is sometimes penalised handling in the breed rings due to her being a junior (a fact acknowledged by the KC and something they are trying to change) but these are things I cannot change.  (it could be fluke that the twice he has qualified for Crufts has been when I'm handling not my more competent daughter) I just need to always remember I am doing this as my hobby, because I enjoy it and I've got a long way to go before I am "one of them". 

I clicker train my pups to stand but I would never take a clicker into a ring as it would distract the dogs who are used to a clicker and some dogs don't like the noise so could put them off.  Once the dog has been trained to do a certain thing the use of a clicker should no longer be needed.

>it really is a matter of being told how good he is at class and then getting no feed back about why he isn't doing well even when he is the only one in the class.

Can your breeder help?  Mine runs ringcraft days for new show puppy owners and any of us with older dogs are welcomed back whenever we like.  She will also assess our photographs, interpret critiques, explain what works well (and what doesn't!)  AND gives direct feedback whenever asked.

Alternatively is there anyone that could video you in the ring?  It's much easier to spot what's going wrong when you aren't on the end of a lead.  You could also try getting someone else to take him at ringcraft so that you can stand back and have a good look at your own dog.  It's never easy to be objective but these options might help. :)

Brainless You only picked up one part of my sentence "go to win" missing the important part of the sentence which was "having a good day out regardless is paramount"
the go to win part was a flippent comment which in hindsight should have read "would love to win" We all think we take the best dogs home but to have a judge agree with you would be fantastic :-)
Paula

Yes I realised, but just wanted to point out that most of us go with little prospect of winning, yet we still all go :)

Yes we go to regardless to, to meet up with friends (family just don't understand why I have more than 1 dog)and to enjoy showing off our spotty babies LOL.
We are all looking forward to Mid counties this weekend as our boys sister has got her 2nd CC and is bringing the champagne and cake!!! now thats a good day out :-)

to OP, that videoing yourself tip is a good one, we did that to help when my OH first started.
Paula

> We are all looking forward to Mid counties this weekend as our boys sister has got her 2nd CC and is bringing the champagne and cake!!! now thats a good day out :-)
>

Would that be choccie cake? :)

We are also new to the showing world ;) we just go and enjoy our day out regardless of our placing, and of course we take home the best dog.
I don't expect to win "big" with him, and i would say he is mr average....but he is a great learning dog ;)

I'm new to showing too. Only being doing so for the past 2 years. As a puppy my bitch didn't do too well as my poor handling skills and inexperience shined through. Now she is an adult she doesn't do anything at Champ shows and ok at Open shows. A combination of this is facey judging, (a fact I think happens in every breed) and her only being Miss average. I'm not blind to her faults now as I was previously but I continue to show her because I love to do so and so does she as she rather likes the attention she gets from others not in my breed. We've not qualified for Crufts but as I was told the other day, it's just another Champ show and an expensive one too!

So don't give up. Use the dog you have now to gain the practise and experience of the Show Ring. Then maybe when you get another dog of better quality you'll do much better.

Freewayz you want to be in my shoes. I

I've just returned to showing this time with a diffrent breed. Firstly we struggle for classes even at champ shows, but had him out last weekend at an open show to prepare him for an upcoming champ show. After spending best part of £100, imagine how I felt when the judge asked what sort of dog he was. Some of the judging was questionable but when isn't it, as its the judges personal preference. I still came away happy because my boy stood well and coped well for his first time out, and couldn't of asked any more of him.

Tips of getting somone to video you in the ring is good, useful at ringcraft as well, to see area's in which you can improve. Be critical of your dog and remember they change all the time, and judging trends can unfortuanly change as well.

Good luck for the future.