I'd like to query the vet saying you can't do the PCR test on old samples?  I don't have any knowledge of this specific test, but I have spent the last 6 years of my life doing 'PCR' on all kinds of samples.... including a truly ancient urine sample.  Bearing in mind that this is the same method that is used in forensics to identify suspects from a crime scene (which can be performed many years later), I find it hard to believe this can't be carried out at a later date.  I may be wrong, and there may be very specific criteria for for this test, but DNA-wise, I would think it'd be possible.  It may be worth contacting the labs that actually carry out this test for clarification. 

I'm sorry about all the problems you're having over this :-(

The pups owner came to see her again on the Saturday before she took her home on Tuesday .

Well seems to me that that is the day the pup was infected with parvo. ((hug))

Fight!! It's the last piece that you needed.

The other pups are not infected and you can pin point a more than probable cause now.

Very best of luck.

I'm sorry, I've just looked into it further, and it seems that because the test is semi-quantitative they actually extract RNA (the intermediate between DNA and protein) from the samples, which is unfortunately far less stable.  However, if the samples have been stored in refrigeration, it could still be possible so perhaps worth exploring?

oh dear what a mess, i wouldnt give a refund :(

personally from now on i would keep all correspondents in writing, so sorry for you.

i missed the the part that said she had pups in the house almost a week apart in age, it wasn't sinking in.  If a pup has died, are you sure its yours and not one of hers.  is she claiming back the price of a lost pup.

Why would she buy in a pup even before her litter has gone and insisting its to go early.

As was said befor curioser and curioser (bad spelling i know lol).

Sorry , I think I may have confused people . I have 2 litters , born a week apart , she had a litter of GSD's that were 7 weeks old at the time that she had my puppy .
My pups are just attacking supper , well one is attacking the curtains too and another trying to hide under the vetbed .... I hope I dont ever have to eat my words but not the actions of pups harbouring parvo !!!! They are beautiful , lively , spirited babies and as we make it through another day I just wish that little one was still here with us :-(

vikc32

The more I read, the more I feel that you should not refund the price of this pup (or pay her vet bills!)

You can't make it look as if you're accepting responsibility, when your own pups are so healthy.

Did you know that she actually had a litter in the house when you agreed to sell this pup?

Well I for one am not confused!
She brought a new pup home and mixed it with others soon after;
Bombarded it with non-veterinary parasite treatment;
When it had the runs attempted to medicate it with prescription-only medication not prescribed;
And only then sought proper veterinary advice.
Now claiming of course that it is all your fault... which as you still have some very healthy and fit puppies at home, seems more & more unlikely by the minute.... and counting.... :)

I did not know that she had other pups when I agreed to let her have my pup , and if I had known I would not have agreed !

I am so sorry this has happened to you, i can't even begin to imagine how it must feel.  You should be enjoying your time with your new pups, not fretting and worrying that something will happen to them.  I can't offer any advice cause i've never experienced this and you seem to have so much advice from knowledgable people any way.   I just wanted to say how sorry i was and hope that it all gets sorted out for the best. Sending (((HUGS))) your way. xx

> I did not know that she had other pups when I agreed to let her have my pup , and if I had known I would not have agreed !

Totally with you on this, it's just not good practice...
So the lady's been dishonest from even before she had your pup, by not disclosing certain information. Just like the woman who had a kitten from me when she had sick cats at home! (And had conveniently 'forgotten' to tell me).

They are beautiful , lively , spirited babies and as we make it through another day I just wish that little one was still here with us

I know it is a horrible thing to say hun, but thank goodness that the pup isn't, if the new owner did infect 'her' pup on the Saturday visit, once the symptoms of parvo had began (Tuesday, Weds) it would have spred through your litter like wildfire and the dam too, if the pup hadn't been collected Tuesday you may have nothing left at all now and you would never have known how or why.

So from this horrible situation there is a large blessing that the pup went early. Although nothing makes up for what has happened to the poor wee thing.

Great news that your pups are still well.When i had my positive parvo result i had several pups go down but even then my vet said they were not poorly enough to have parvo and the whole litter was not affected,which made them suspect a false positive.
The fact that not one of the rest of your litter has gone down after 12 days of contact with poorly pup makes it even more obvious that the you do not have parvo in your litter.
Are you able to get an independant post mortem done on puppy and tell the woman that you need to know the exact cause for your own peace of mind and only then will you discuss refunding her.

One other thing that may give you peace of mind.I had a stool sample checked for everything,worms,camplyobactor,salmonella,parvo,giardia which all came back negative but i was able to send puppies off to new homes with a copy of this result for my and the new owners peace of mind.

Please do take heart that your pups are all well,i really don't think you are going to have the problem you feared,it would have happened by now.

Hugs Ali x

I have asked my vet if they will come out to me to check them all over as this has terrified me so much I am scared to take them to the vets ( silly probably but if there is a parvo outbreak in my area the one place that may have it in the environment may be the vets ... yes losing the plot I know ! ) Hope he can take samples etc then .
As for a PM on the pup , when I finally got her vets to talk to me yesterday , after ignoring me for a couple of days , I have found out that they have already ' incinerated ' her :-(
I would like to again thank everyone for being so helpful here , you have really helped me get through what has probably been one of the hardest weeks of my life .. but I feel like I am starting to see light at the end now :-)

You will want to get a certificate that all the remaining pups are well so they can go to their new homes. 

This will also leave you with evidence to show the rest of your pups are will should the dead pups owner want to take things further, which would make a nonsense of her case against you.

You can then write to her and keep a copy outlining that the pup was well, all remaining pups have remained well, (and had their homing's delayed), and that the pups death was not caused by anything contracted from your premises or done by you.

Far from you owing her anything (she had delayed seeking veterinary treatment and admitted self medicating), she in fact has put you to much cost and worry with your remaining pups and you owe here nothing.

Was your pup and her own pups the same breed?  As someone suggested can you be sure that the dead pup was yours?  Were your pups chipped or tattooed?

> Was your pup and her own pups the same breed?  As someone suggested can you be sure that the dead pup was yours?

Her pups were GSD's and mine are Lhasa's so I guess it must have been mine :-(

Her pups were GSD's and mine are Lhasa's

Yes, but did YOU tell HER vet that the pup in question,  was a Lhasa. After all, if this "Lady" breeds GSD's, and she took a poorly GSD pup to the vets, that is the breed the vet would be expecting her to bring in, and could possibly take it for granted, that it was a GSD that you were talking about. That l know is being a bit far fetched, but, one never can tell with devious folk such as this. How one can possibly administer antibiotics to such a young pup without a medical examination is beyond me, and then, after paying a quite substantial sum l imagine for the pup, buy over the counter products........words fail me.
I don't think that l would be giving this person ANY money back. 

You are absolutely right in asking the vet to come to you,that is not unreasonable at all.I would ask vet to dip feet and hands before coming into contact as well(sorry to worry you,but vets do handle alot of sick dogs and should be only to pleased to take precautions).All my tests were done by poo samples so maybe you could collect some for the vet to take away with them.

I am so sorry you are going through this,having had a similair experience i know how terrifying it is but if i've learnt anything it's never to have anything other than a pcr test done to check for parvo.These unreliable,quicker tests they do cause to much heartache.

As they have incinerated the pup i guess all you can do is to prove that your pups are free of parvo.If they are so sure it was parvo it had to come from somewhere and it cannot have been you when you have a healthy litter

Ali x

> Does anyone else like me think that Frontline is not working???
>
>

I live on the IOW and, although I used Frontline spray on the puppies yesterday (cat likes to live in the spare room under the bed), since we moved here 8 years ago we have been told by our vets not to use the spray as the fleas here have built up an immunity to it and it won't control them. Even Combi is not having the same effect. Not a great surprise then to hear that it's happening in other areas.
BTW, if you google the active ingredient in Frontline spot-on, it is shocking what it can do. I swapped to Bob Martin's new double-action spot-on this time with my dogs and haven't had the bald spot that my boy normally gets with Frontline, so here's hoping it does the trick.

>I swapped to Bob Martin's new double-action spot-on this time with my dogs and haven't had the bald spot that my boy normally gets with Frontline,

If that's an over-the-counter preparation then it's unlikely to be effective - which could be why your dog hasn't had a localised reaction to it!

No, it's a prescription only one, but not sure if it's Bob Martin's or Johnson's as I've put the box in a safe place. My boy only gets the reaction with the spot-on, not with Combi or spray or any of the other spot-ons we've had from the vet, so haven't used Frontline for years. But he's also the one who had a reaction to his booster, so he's obviously a bit sensitive...

Just had a message to say that now her 2 pups , plus next doors pup and older dog have apparently now got parvo , all my fault as it was my puppy shedding in her house that has caused it ... one of the dogs didn't meet the pup but the owners did . The first one started coming down with it 7 days ago and the others have followed ... :-(

Oh no! :(
Please consider getting yours PCR tested now. You seem to have healthy pups, they do not - it's going to cause a lot of trouble if they think it's all come from you.... time to start working to clear yourself I think...

i agree here you MUST get them tested and then you can say its not come from you!!! and without the test you carnt and the blame you be with you when it sounds like its not! x

Jesus :-(

Please get all of yours tested..

> as it was my puppy shedding in her house that has caused it

Shedding what? I'm of the thought that it was transmitted by feces directly or indirectly? A dog that successfully recovers from CPV2 sheds the virus for a few days, but as you said the pup died :-(

So are they saying that they never cleaned up after the pup who was ill? They allowed it to be around their others too? Which means their cleaning regime is shocking, especially more so that she had a litter too..

Do they shed it before they show symptoms ?

Now without the test Id say 'you are up the creek without a paddle', though it may not have come from you all the blame is going your way and this could become costly both in money and in reputation, I think you need to nip this in the bud as soon as possible.

http://www.vetinfo.com/dparvo.html

Appears that it is shed about 4 days after exposure.

The vetinfo link has a Q&A area:

Here is 1 Question:
Question: I have a friend who was caring for someone's puppy and the puppy developed Parvo.  The puppy's people blamed my friend.  Is there a known incubation period for Parvo?

Thanks doc.  

Answer: S-

The incubation period for parvovirus is between 4 and 14 days. This is the amount of time from the exposure to the virus until clinical signs are obvious. Puppies have detectable virus in the blood stream prior to four days and they shed the virus in their stool for up to two weeks after they seem to be fully recovered.

This virus is very hard to avoid and it is not really fair to blame anyone for the puppy's exposure to the virus. The virus can last several months in the environment and puppies are easily infected. Vaccination is the best protection against this disease but it doesn't always work, because there is a brief period of time (about a week) during the puppy's life when the virus can overpower vaccination even when it has been properly administered.

Hope this helps your friends understand this disease a little better. If you need additional information, let me know.
Mike Richards DVM

Oh dear,

You must get all your pups pcr tested asap. This woman intends blaming you and possibly will demand a lot of money for all vet fees. You must get your vet to clear you.
The virus could have been carried by anyone and every day that passes and none of your pups or adults shows any symptoms the less likely it is that you were the source.

This must be very stressful for you but you must take action now to protect yourself.

Kind Regards

Please get at least one tested.  i can see where this is going.

Oh god,i'm so sorry for you reading this x

When i had my positive initail parvo result the vet i went to for a second opinion was extremely supportive and contacted the lab who did tests fro answers to all my worries including how infection could have occured,incubation time etc. I'm thinking this may be the way to go,if your own vet won't help maybe find a more cooperative vet.If it wasn't for the help of this second vet i would have been convinced i'd had parvo.

It just doesn't add up that your litter are fine and hers are not! When i had my scare i was told by initial vet that they had had cases in recently that were diagnosed as parvo but i now wonder if they too had the unreliable tests done and never followed them with a pcr. Maybe this is the case with this womans dogs and they have a nasty virus that is not parvo,after all she must have had a problem at some time to have the medication she had.

Maybe this is good news in a way as there are now sick dogs who allegedly have parvo that a stool sample CAN be taken from to do a pcr test,if it were me i think i would offer to pay to have this to clear this up.

Thinking of you,stay strong,you must be shattered xx

I agree with the others this woman is obviously now very angry and is out to get even...
Without concrete evidence she may be one of those that is trying it on and out to blackmail/browbeat
you into paying up and now possibly trying to extract extra monies out of you.

You definately need to prove that the parvo was not in your environment.
The only way to do this now is to test the living siblngs and other dogs that are in your environment.
If they all test clear then chances are that the parvo wasn't in your environment but hers.

Questions I'd be wanting to pose
Are any of these dogs in the woman's environment (hers and her neighbours) vaccinated by a vet??
If she knew full well that she had an ill puppy why on earth did she allow visitors in etc without the correct
disinfecting etc and advising the people before they visited that she had a poorly pup?
Plus surely her own vet would/should have advised her on infection control and risk to her other dogs and those
that are in her own environment??

Something isn't right here and you need to take defensive action now to protect your own reputation
and that of your own dogs. This may have a great expense to yourself but to be honest I can't see any other way
that you can prove that your dogs/environment doesn't have the virus.
As I've a feeling that this woman isn't going to accept the fact that your other pups have not shown any signs of being
poorly. You will need to provide veterinary evidence by testing the pups that they don't have the virus.
I've a feeling that she and her neighbours may try to take you to the small claims court if they can't extract the monies out of you prior to going there...in which case you need to prove that you
have done everything possible to ensure that your surviving pups/dogs/environment don't have the virus.
If all the tests on yours come back clear then chances are the Parvo was picked up in her environment.
It would also be best to get your own vet onside and get advice to see if it's at all possible that pup could have had
parvo etc before she left yours if none of your others are showing symptoms.

In order to clear your name and your dogs you will need to stand up to this woman and prove that the virus
wasn't from your dogs/in your home. If you don't she won't leave you alone....and will keep trying to extract more and more from you...
You need to clear your name and testing your own dogs is the only way to go as otherwise they will try to come after you now for 5 dogs purchase prices to cover all the dogs if they die plus all their vet fees.

Ive been logging on every day to find out what is happening here as I just feel so very sorry for you, it must be every breeders worst nightmare :(

Ive just read back through all the thread again and Im just wondering why your vets didnt suggest having a PCR test done on your pups straight away the other pup was reported to you as having it?

You HAVE to prove asap that parvo hasnt come from your house, I would have been beating down the door of the vets getting them to come out and make sure the pups I had a home were completely clear the second I knew about the other one.  Even if I couldnt afford to have all the litter done I would have scraped together enough money to have at least one done.  People have been suggesting for the last 5 days about this definitive test, I just wondered why it hadnt happened yet to clear your name/sort things out/prove to this woman that you have no parvo on the premises.

You dont want to lose the other buyers if they hear that there is a possible case of parvo.

Im just so sorry xx

my vets keep telling me there is no point in testing the other pups if they are showing no signs , I have asked on several occasions . They are coming out to me at some point today and I plan on nagging face to face . I like my vets and they are usually superb so am hoping they will help me .

Sure if you tell them you are being accused of causing problems and losses to the other animals the woman owns and also her neighbours and you need proof that your dogs are not infected they will do a test for you.

Just had a message to say that now her 2 pups , plus next doors pup and older dog have apparently now got parvo , all my fault as it was my puppy shedding in her house that has caused it ... one of the dogs didn't meet the pup but the owners did . The first one started coming down with it 7 days ago and the others have followed ... 

So sorry for whats happening to you  x

I find it a little odd that this lady has only just informed you after a period of 7 days that other dogs are coming down with parvo ............. Looks like to start with she may have been just trying to get her money back & you having sold the pup to her was an easy target for her to claim vet fee's from plus the original cost of the pup for whatever reason it died as long as she was back to square one , she could easily pick up another pup elsewhere.

But now the others are ill , i think she will be gunning for you to make as much money from you as possible..... everything this person did from the 1st time she entered your home in my eyes was wrong !!! No care for your litter was shown and who after collecting a brand new puppy who follow the same path & do the same things that this person has done .

I can only say how i feel , not everyone will agree but if it had been my puppy this person took home , then i would be doing everything within my power to prove her wrong & i would be so angry it would be quite easy to remain firm . Please don't feel pressured to admit anything untill you have had your remaining pups tested regardless of what your vet is saying , if you are willing to pay then the vet should do the test .   Good luck , stay strong x

Sorry i don't know how to put a quote in so i just copied it  :0)

I wonder if the vet will make a definitive note/letter that your pups are free of Parvo without the test.  Can't get over them refusing to do it.

If its true about the other dogs around her coming down with it, then your pups would have had it by now I'm sure.

I think i would insist on a pcr now and also get them to screen sample for everything else,Camplyobactor,samonella,e coli,giardia coccidiosis,worm eggs..... everything possible.I know you're pups are all well and extremely unlikely to have any of these but you need it on paper. If you have a full fecael check on litter come back as negative and this lady has 'apparently' got parvo then it has not come from you.

I had a print out from the lab which i photocopied to give to new owners for peace of mind that i had done everything possible to ensure pups were not incubating anything.

The majority of these tests come back in a day or two but unfortunatley the pcr takes a bit longer.I would collect some samples before the vet comes and insist on a test.I t will such a huge relief for you when it comes back negative as i'm sure it will.
Having been through it i know it's the not knowing that does you in,it was the worst week of my life,but getting that negative result back on paper was a massive relief,you need to for your own sanity.

Hugs Ali xx

I actually spoke to her on Thursday and Friday and she mentioned nothing ( this would have been 2 or 3 days after she says first one came down with it ) She was asking again for a refund on the pup , but no mention of vets bills this time . She has actually now said that she wishes she had acted differently and not had pup quite so early , and had taken her to the vets quicker ... as I said , hindsight is a wonderful thing and there are many things I would have done different too !
I will tackle my vet when I get my visit and try to get somewhere with them .

If she has calmed down and is now being civil i would be inclined to try and be as civil as possible back (not implying that you are not at all) in the hope that she will agree to work with you to get to the bottom of this.

First step i would take is to ask her to take a sample to her vet and do a pcr test on it to confirm once and for all her other dogs have actually got parvo,not just a positive result that is possibly false.After all if her and her neighbours dogs have the smae virus as the pup and the same test is used it most likely will come back positive.

Unfortunately this all depends on how cooperative she will be but it does sound like she may have come round a bit xx

Hi vikc32

Before you see your vet today can I suggest that you write down as much as you can recall about who said what to whom and when.  Use the dates on this thread, check your own diary and try to create an accurate timeline.

The better preparared you are, and the more facts you have at your fingertips, the less likely you are to be bullied or confused into agreeing to anything by mistake.   This will also help you deal with your vets and help to impress upon them the need to take action to protect yourself - even if they think the tests may be unnecessary.

Your clear account and well organised thinking will highlight the chaotic household that this puppy was taken into and should go some way to putting your mind at ease AND demonstrating your commitment to the health and wellbeing of ALL puppies in your care.  Good luck :)

im not saying that it will but if it goes to court you will need proof that your pups do not/did not have parvo

Also i'd get any adults in the house done too, whether they have been near the pups or not.

> The first one started coming down with it 7 days ago and the others have followed ...

Surely this is not possible as your pup only went last tuesday,thats not a week till tomorrow.

Kind Regards

No , it was the Tuesday before , so thats 2 weeks tomorrow :-(

I have just read through this thread in it's entirety simply to refresh all that has been said,and vikc32 posted on 24th(sunday) that she had just received a message stating....

> Just had a message to say that now her 2 pups , plus next doors pup and older dog have apparently now got parvo , all my fault as it was my puppy shedding in her house that has caused it ... one of the dogs didn't meet the pup but the owners did . The first one started coming down with it 7 days ago and the others have followed ...

Now by my reckoning  that first pup became ill sunday/monday and your (vikc32) puppy did not leave you until tuesday.
There is a lot that does not add up here.
This woman has already admitted to giving vikc's pup AB's but has also said that all her dogs were healthy.
She has lied to her vet on the friday when she took the pup to the vets stating she had only bought her home that day.
She did not mention to vikc at all that she had other dogs including puppies at home.
She insisted on taking vikc's puppy home early.
None of vikc's puppies or adults have shown any signs of illness,parvo or otherwise.

I think this woman knew or at least suspected that her dogs may have parvo and sought to use vikc32 as the scapegoat.

I may be wrong but it sort of makes sense.

Kind Regards

Hi , I think I may have confused myself here ( easily done at the moment ! )
The puppy left mine 13 days ago ... the other dogs started to become unwell 7 or 8 days ago , so 5 or 6 days later .

So your pup died on sunday 18th and this woman is claiming that her pups started showing signs of illness on that sunday as well.
Ah I'm beginning to understand now.

Now it stands to reason that if the virus originated with you that the pups you still have would have been seriously ill by now. What has your vet said re the puppies health today?
I still think this woman is looking to you as a scapegoat. It's quite possible she knew she had been exposed to the virus before she collected her pup from you.

Kind Regards

Mine are still ok ... vet told me to crack on with worming though as they were due on Saturday and I was too terrified to do it in case they got squishy poo and I wouldnt know if it was the wormer or they were poorly , yes , stupid I know !!!!