My pcr test was done by a poo sample which had to be sent off to a lab with a weeks wait for results.

As you cannot get a sample from the pup tht has sadly died, i think if i were you i would have a pcr done on the remaining litter and if that comes back negative and pups are still well,bearing in mind that will take you 2 weeks from exposure to sick puppy then i think you will be safe to assume it was a false positive.

The original vets that gave me a positive result never offered me the pcr or even mentioned it, i went for a second opinion from a different vet so you may have to ring round to find a cooperative vet.

Well, it would be best if you can do a different test on the dead pup but you can have your pups tested and if they are clear it was not Parvo and in that case you need to know what killed the puppy so it would be best to ask their vet to hang on to the pups body until matters have been resolved it should not cause them any problem to do that and the pups owners should want to know the truth as much as you do.

I wouldn't hand over any money as the new owner sounds neglegent in what they ahve done and you can't be sure that they have not took it out.  i agree with everyone else, you have a room full of sick if not dead pups by now if it had originated with you.

i would suggest she doesn't step foot in your house incase she contaminates it with the virus. 

i would insist on the pcr test for accuracy and peace of mind.  Maybe have one of the pups done, then the rest of the litters if it proves positive.

I'd never do to a young pup what she did, no wonder she's had a tragedy and cost the pup its life.

Stay strong and you'll get through this.

Their argument is that she became ill so quickly that it must have come from here ( she had it tuesday afternoon , had runs on wednesday , vomiting by thursday night ) ... I don't know that I have it in me anymore to argue with her :-(

Yes and if pup was was poisoned by flea treatments coupled with diet change,stress and medications that were possibly dangerous for a young pup she would have became ill pretty quickly too. I'm sorry you are having to go through this,it must be an absolute nightmare for you but until you have hard evidence that the pup died due to infection that could only have been contracted while in your care I would not be handing over full purchase price plus all vet fees.

Kind Regards

> (As an aside surely a pup born to a bitch who has at sometime in their life had a vaccination would be carrying antibodies whilst this young, would be interested in any informed opinion on this)

that was my thought.

My ex-husband came back positive for Hepatitis when he had a medical for working in a hospital.  his mother in Poland had contracted hepatitis in hospital  following a miscarriage before he was born.

He had further more accurate tests which showed he had antigens not antibodies so was not a carrier of this blood borne disease, they checked my daughters blood after birth just to be sure.

I go with others advice.  Have your own pups pcr tested.  At least, when they prove to be negative, I feel that you can let go of your guilt feelings.  I do so feel for you, you sound so, so tired of it all. 

Although I totally understand that it isn't about the money, I honestly feel that you shouldn't be responsible for their vet fees if you prove that your own pups don't have parvo.

If, as a goodwill gesture, you decide to refund the price of the pup, that is entirely your decision.  But if their pup died due to their incompetencies, how can that be your responsibility?

I agree with Jean - as a goodwill gesture you might feel you should refund the puppy price - but no way should you refund vet fees when you can't be sure it came from you. It sounds like it would be well worthwhile having the remaining pups pcr tested so you can be sure they are going to be ok, though it seems likely they would have symptoms by now if it had come from you. Much more likely she either took the pup out early, or it was all the food changing and flea treating caused some problem.

It must be over a week now since the puppy left you... I find it hard to believe that if it was infected with Parvo beforehand, that none of your other pups have become unwell yet. What is the usual incubation period for Parvo, from exposure to symptoms? If it is like most viruses, then it would be anything up to 10-14 days. If so, the pup must have caught the virus at least a week before it left you... yet the others remain unaffected....

Unless the others did come into contact with the virus, but were/are still protected by maternal antibodies.... And the stress & chemical treatments the sold pup endured was enough to weaken its immune system enough to succumb to a virus it was happily in control of at the time and likely to overcome...?

instead trying to treat it with the pro Kaolin and some antibiotics she had in the house already

Just wondering here, but HOW and WHY? did the woman have pro-kaolin and suitable antibiotics already in the house?   Had she already lost a dog/pup from sickness recently?
Some diseases require that the house is dog free for a number of months before acquiring another dog ;)

apparently this lady puppy sat a neighbours pup too the day after she collected hers from me , who also seems to be fine

That's the day the pup she had from you started with runny poos?      If this is true then the pup most likely to catch whatever the pup had is that one?    If it was parvo, then that pup would surely have it by now?

Who in their right mind would puppy-sit another pup after bringing home a new young puppy?  Even without the other things that have gone on, that's asking for trouble!

Hope you get to the bottom of this, something doesn't add up to me

> Hope you get to the bottom of this, something doesn't add up to me <IMG alt=confused src="/images/confused.gif">

Dill... you have picked up on what's been niggling at me too.
Someone who had Pro-Kolin on hand and knew how & when to use it, would seem an experienced dog owner to me. BUT... having that level of knowledge, why treat with pet shop flea stuff? Experienced people know full well they are at best useless, and at worst dangerous.

And I don't think however experienced I was, I would ever put a new puppy on AB's I had "hanging around" without the express permission and prescription from a vet. Using unprescribed ABs is illegal, and I don't think the new owner would have a leg to stand on in respect to that.

And puppy-sitting another pup from unknown background when you have a new pup in the house, is just ignorance in the extreme. It reminds me of someone who once had a pedigree kitten from me, who wanted a full refund after a few weeks saying it had been ill ever since she brought it home. She had neglected to tell me one of her cats had ongoing Campylobacter at the time she first viewed, then took home, the kitten. What kind of person goes 'shopping' for new kittens with sick cats at home?

Does the puppy buyers vet know about her using the antibiotics and flea treatments?

Snap to Dill and MsTemeraire...

Something just doesn't feel right and now after self medicating the pup with A/b's & pro-kaolin,
changing it's food directly it left you, treating it with supermarket flea stuff...sounds like the new owner was cutting corners and trying to save themselves on vet's bills & using the proper medications for treating fleas etc...
Then letting another puppy into the home prior to the puppy you bred getting all it's innoculations madness...

I wouldn't be giving back to money just yet I'd be insisting on a PM and the other test.
As others have pointed out get your other pups tested as surely by now they'd be developing symptoms
by now...if your pups at home all test clear then it can't have come from your home and could have possibly
come from the pup that visited pup in it's new home. Or if this woman had all this stuff in her home already....
I'd also be wanting to know if she has lost a dog/pup recently to Parvo or the like as her home environment may not have been disinfected correctly and the virus could still be in her home environment...and after hitting the puppy's immune system with flea treatments, pro kaolin, antibiotics BEFORE taking puppy to a vet...doesn't feel right at all.
The fact that she left puppy 24 hours BEFORE taking the pup to a vet too...when anyone that knows dogs etc knows that in young pups if they have an ippy tummy dehydration is a serious risk and you get down your vet pdq with puppy.

Be strong as this person might be 'wanting their cake and eat it' by getting you to refund puppy purchase price and vets bills...especially if it was their negligence that caused all pups problems and not yours...

> And I don't think however experienced I was, I would ever put a new puppy on AB's I had "hanging around" without the express permission and prescription from a vet. Using unprescribed ABs is illegal, and I don't think the new owner would have a leg to stand on in respect to that.

I agree, I have used hanging around medications before for older dogs when it is a minor problem and its something they've had before - what's suitable for one of my dogs might not for another. A new puppy would be straight to the vets!

Surely it's unlikely a very young puppy (even if it really did need antibiotics) would need the same dose as an adult dog. My vet always weighs my pets before prescribing medication, even though they're always within a kg or two of last time.

I think Boxacrazy has said exactly what I am thinking! I appreciate this must be very stressful for you and as you said it's not about the money but if you start refunding or paying vets fees you could be seen to be admitting liabiity. This is a terrible thing to have happened but something doesn't add up here. I am sure that if you stick to your guns and everyone has their fingers and paws crossed for your pups and they do not become ill, the answer must lie somewhere else other than at your door.

Thinking of you.

Thanyou all for being so helpful and supportive ! My remaining pups still seem ok ( I've had the usual fun of trying to clear out the nights mess whilst having pups jumping all ove me this morning ) They have all eaten and are now curled up in front of the heater , poo's in both pens fairly solid ... so we live to fight another day , and hopefully many more !

vikc32, as each day passes this seems less and less like an infection, something else happened and the vet has jumped on the Parvo as one likely reason. It is possible the pup had a congenital problem or was poisoned by it's new owner either way I think you have to find the strength to find out.

I do not think you should return the puppies cost but if you do it should be made clear it is returned as a good will gesture and in no way an acceptance of responsibility and as horrid as it may seem you should claim the pups remains so you and your vet can get to the bottom of the problem. NO remains, not refund. You must be allowed to get to the bottom of this matter because as it stands you have no idea what happened except that it is unlikely to be an infection contacted at your home. If it is congenital then you will need to know as it could effect the future breeding of the remaining pups, if it is a problem with the skills of the new owner you may need to take action on that to stop a similar thing happening to any future animals purchased by her.

Vikc32. So pleased to hear that your remaining pup are well. I don't have the experience of many that have posted but hang on in there. If it was (which seems unlikely) the dreaded parvo, yours would be showing signs by now. Very dubious, stupid and callous that she treaded her pup as she did and would not be concidering a refund (if I was to give one) until more time has passed.
If I had lost a pup so soon, would obviously be wanting to know what the cause was but if the remaining pups were still healthy I would be looking to my own actions and questioning the parvo result. As said in many OP's ,it doesn't add up and people are very quick to accuse others than look at their own behaviour. As for asking for a refund so soon when your pups are OK, something is NOT right. All the very best a horrible time for you, best wishes.

Just a thought, have you spoken directly to the vet that treated puppy or has the info come from her?

Do you have proof that the pup has gone if you've not spoken to the vet.

Your remaining pups sound in good health and happy little bunnies (sorry puppies lol).

Offering thoughts of support.  Hope you managed to get some rest.

It still sounds like the little one went into anaphylactic shock to me....from toxic overload....??

If the new owner was self-treating with over the counter flea shampoos/spot ons etc....and just happened to have antibiotics on hand....is it conceivable that (although illegal to administer) she also had access to vaccines..?? A recently administered parvo vaccine can give a positive on an eliza test.

I can only sympathise with how agonising this situation must be for you...but as each day passes and your other little ones are remaining full of beans then its unlikely that parvo is going to effect them.....(I'd also be inclined to obtain the DHLP Nosode from a Homeopathic Vet and give to all the remaining puppies until they are old enough for their first puppy shots)

With regards to any flea problem I'd recommend getting a big tub of food-grade Diatomaceous Earth from wiggly wigglers and sprinkle it/sweep it into all the carpets/laminates/linos in your home...leave it down for a couple of days before vaccuuming....and then leave a sprinkling around the edges of all the rooms. I'm really conscious of my dogs and cats absorbing any chemicals through the pads on their feet or by licking their coats.... but at least if its a completely natural product....then although it may not look that attractive to have a white powder round your home for a few days....at least you can be certain that its not causing them any harm....

A light dusting of the powder in their coats will kill off any little unwelcome visitors (and a teaspoon in their food every day for 30 days will deal with any worms and its also really good at de-odourising urine smells)

Being the Guardian of an Ivermectin sensitive breed myself I'm well aware of toxicity problems that can be caused by unsuitable flea/worm control and always caution new guardians about the dangers. For that reason I always send my own little ones off with a small tub of food grade DE in their puppy pack....so a new gaurdian immediately has the Natural Product that the puppy has been used to.

Thinking of you and all your little ones x

  

> Just a thought, have you spoken directly to the vet that treated puppy or has the info come from her?
>
> Do you have proof that the pup has gone if you've not spoken to the vet.
>
>

Hi , yes I have spoken to their vet so I know that pup is dead and that the 3 tests came back positive for parvo . She was a little surprised to hear that they had actually had the pup since Tuesday and about the anti biotics etc , and she had been told they had only collected her on the Friday ( the day they first took her to see the vet )
The one lot of my pups are all currently playing , after having eaten lunch and poo'd ( this is the litter that affected pup came from ) and the others are all asleep but have been up and eaten and poo'd .
I've also just remembered that one of the first questions she asked me was if my house was unusually warm as the pup was shaking , particularly when she put her outside for a wee ( my house is actually on the cooler side as I tend to leave the back door open for my older dogs )

she had been told they had only collected her on the Friday ( the day they first took her to see the vet )

So you are dealing with a liar. You really are going to grit your teeth and look far deeper into this, you do not even know if this dead pup is one of yours, has she bought in more than one pup. Someone who would stand and lie to a vet with a sick pup in their arms is someone not to be trusted.

does anyone know if the fact that the pup had only recently stopped feeding off a vaccinated mom who still trigger a positive elisa test result ? Mom was still feeding them at night until 4 or 5 days before she left ... again , just a pondering

Don't know for sure but it would seem that it is more than likely. The reason that most people do not vaccinate until the pups are 10weeks is because they are carrying maternal antibodies until then and these antibodies would destroy the injected  material if they were still present in any numbers.

Just a thought, if she was administering pro-kolin, why did she have it,  had it been used before. If so, how had it been administered. If by mouth, then it would more than likely have been contaminated  with whatever she was treating for.

does anyone know if the fact that the pup had only recently stopped feeding off a vaccinated mom who still trigger a positive elisa test

Most likely! Also a pup vaccinated illegally by someone who bought in vaccines from abroad would to! (I think maybe someone who has 'antibiotics' lying around the house could have bought them in via an illegal route). Not saying this is the case here but this person has already lied, why would they do that unless they had something to hide?

One of my recent litter had a vaccine that was cancelled out by maternal antibodies to parvo and needed a repeat vaccine

You need to ask your vet or theirs to carry out the PCR test before refunding any purchase price or costs.

> some antibiotics she had in the house already

I wonder how long they had been laying about? Chances of being out of date? Wrong dosage? What went through their heads I wonder to even think about giving a puppy this when they had no idea what was wrong.
Also I wonder if these were antibiotics for dogs rather than for human consumption.

Then they lied to the vets about when they picked the pup up from you. I wonder if they ever did mention to the vets what they used on the poor pup? It could be that they did something wrong and had they told the vet this pup potentially could of been saved?

A lot of what if's and I agree with the PCR test and also a PM too..
As for a refund I think you need to know the above first before making any decisions and i'd personally want to know the results if it were me with litters at home.. Good luck.

and she had been told they had only collected her on the Friday ( the day they first took her to see the vet ) 

That makes sense as to why their vet was so adamant that the pup became infected whilst with you the breeder. I couldn't understand why their vet could say such a thing previously.

You need to do the PCR test for the sake of your reputation, to be honest I doubt the other pups have anything wrong with them they appear to be thriving as is the dam, your litter has been held up for re-homing due to this, your doing the responsible thing but I truly believe this is down to your pups new owners.

My pups are always given a 10 point vet check before leaving my home but still in my contract all pups must be taken to a vet within 48 hours of leaving my home, for a check up and vet prescribed worm and flea treatments, I would kick up such a stink if shop bought items were given to my 8 week old pup, most don't work well enough or cover the full treatments needed and it is well documented that pups and dogs can have adverse effects to treatments.

Although I too believe the products used may well have weakened the immune system and possibly caused toxic shock there is still the problem of where the parvo has come from.

The new owners have been negligent in mixing your pup with another before inoculation is over, but did you tell them they should not do this? Did you tell them to get vet prescribed treatments? And when did you tell them to inoculate the pup? Did you tell them the pup can not go for walks on grass, pavements etc, until fully inoculated, did you tell them to socialise by carrying the pup around and not mixing with other dogs? If you have not disclosed the proper procedures to them, then their incompetence will come back as your incompetence.  In which case I would just give them a refund now as they can say you did not warn them of the dangers.

If you did give out the correct advice and they ignored it, (what a shame you messed up with the KC insurance) then I would give them nothing, do the PCR test and clear your name, grieve for the poor pup which you raised and should be having a happy life right now, if not for some silly mistakes. I would be devastated, but don't be pressured into anything right now, get all the facts first.

So get all the proof you need to show that your litter is parvo free, ask your vet to check whether there are any parvo outbreaks in your area or more importantly the area that the pup went to as well. This may be useful.

Best of luck. So sorry you lost a pup, I would be so upset.

This has brought back memories for me.

Many years ago when I bred Burmese cats, one of my new owners contacted me saying the kitten she had from me had infectious enteritis and she had  "had to pay a fortune at the vets"  and she wanted the price of the kitten as recompense. I pointed out that the kitten was fully vaccinated and that I doubted that the kitten would have gone down with infectious enteritis in the 2 days she had it as it wouldn't have had an opportunity to catch it, the kitten was also covered by insurance.  She was adamant, so I asked to speak to her vet about it - Permission was given.  On contacting the vet I discovered that on the day BEFORE  she took my kitten home she had (unknown to me) bought a six week old ginger tabby kitten and this was the kitten that was ill   the vet assured me that my kitten was completely healthy -they'd both been seen by him.     As she only paid a nominal fee for the moggie kitten, she thought she could cover her vets bills with the price of mine.  Why she thought the vet wouldn't know which kitten was which escapes me, my kittens were 15 weeks old before leaving me and were all blue self coloured.  Woman had to keep the kittens separate until the poor ginger one was well again, thankfully mine stayed healthy, as did the rest of his litter.  I didn't pay her vet's bills ;)

Sometimes people's actions can be completely unexpected :(

> The new owners have been negligent in mixing your pup with another before inoculation is over, but did you tell them they should not do this? Did you tell them to get vet prescribed treatments? And when did you tell them to inoculate the pup? Did you tell them the pup can not go for walks on grass, pavements etc, until fully inoculated, did you tell them to socialise by carrying the pup around and not mixing with other dogs? If you have not disclosed the proper procedures to them, then their incompetence will come back as your incompetence.

Carrington. Prehaps many breeders go through a check list of do's & don'ts as their puppy is handed over to it's new owner, I applaud you for doing so. But the new owner, has to take responsibility for it's basic health & welfare. When we did research for our dogs some years ago, I spent hours reading and talking to people in advance of collecting them.

Sorry Lacy, but any breeder worth their salt will give out all vital information to new owners whether they have had dogs for 20 years or not.  People forget when starting afresh, I've never personally met a breeder who does not coach new owners on how to care for their new pup.

Well done on your research prior picking up your pup, but the majority of people just don't do it.

>Prehaps many breeders go through a check list of do's & don'ts as their puppy is handed over to it's new owner

Lacy, it is a requirement of the Kennel Club Accredited Breeder Scheme, as follows

Accredited Breeders are required to use ABS puppy sales wallets for every puppy that they sell.  Included in these wallets is a feedback form that the new owner is requested to return directly to the Kennel Club.  There are questions on this form that inform us about the Accredited Breeder's compliance with aspects of the Scheme that we are not able to police in any other way, for example whether the breeder provided advice on training, feeding, socialisation etc.

Whilst I agree that new owners should do some research the breeder, for their own peace of mind at the very least, must take the time to explain how their puppy should be cared for in the early weeks.  Some novice owners really have no clue about what is involved in caring for a young puppy.  I met such a one in my vets on Wednesday - taken from it's mother at 1 week old, rehomed at 4 weeks, no insurance, and was only getting vaccinations cos the vet mentioned it during their visit.  Why were they there?  Cos her friend had dropped the puppy - a blue staff crossed with a Husky.  Oh and the puppy was allowed to walk to the vets from the other side of town...

To the OP I have no advice to add to that already given but I have read with interest.  I do hope your puppies continue to thrive and that you can resolve what happened in this case.  Sending best wishes x

Have just come off phone from their vets yet again, who are now being very unhelpful and have told me that they cannot discuss anything any further regarding doing a pcr test as they have to protect their client . They have told me to phone my own vet with any questions . I have phoned my vet to try to get some help and advice regarding the maternal antibodies and am waiting for them to call back , but get the feeling they are getting fed up of me too . I have said I would have thought that all the vets in the area would want to get to the bottom of a possible parvo outbreak and would try to help me , I have even said if they want me to make an actual appointment to discuss it I will ( maybe they think they've given me enough free advice ! )

The ultimate decision is yours and yours alone, you can stand your ground, with the proof that your pups and dam are all healthy and the pup left your premises a happy healthy pup. Therefore you accept no responsibility for the pup dying of parvo and will not be refunding any money. Make sure you have your veterinaries back up. Your vet can also contact their vet for the pup for a separate autopsy if you wish, but certainly can have all the medical paperwork regarding the pup.

The new owners then have the choice of backing off or threatening to take you to court with the evidence from their vet and wanting the return of the pups money plus vet fees, legal costs will also be added. Unless you have insurance to cover it can be very expensive if you were to lose.

It will be down to the courts to decide if they take it that far as to whether there is enough evidence either way to pinpoint where the pup became ill.

Were you told immediately when the pup began to go downhill or only when they took it to the vet? As hopefully your immediate response would have been to go to the vet which would have probably saved it's life rather than waiting until the Friday. That would also be a good scoring point for you.

I'm not sure what I would do, I would be incensed that I was being accused of selling a pup with parvo with a healthy litter and knowing the 'care' given to the pup by them could have gone a long way to the pups demise. I would be livid it was coming back on me and would fight to the death to protect my reputation. But I would need the vets back up for that fight.

But then another part of me would just want it all to go away.

At the end of the day, I would say it depends on how much fight you have in you. :-(

I don't see why the vet can't do the PCR test, what does he mean to protect his client?; he knows she's lied and the pup doesn't have parvo.  i would ask you vet to request the autopsy of your own, you might be able to do the test then.

Alternatively ring the woman and tell her no refund of any kind unless she agrees to this test.

Hope you don't cave into her.  The other pups being ok are proof the litter is healthy.

> he knows she's lied and the pup doesn't have parvo

They are saying that as she tested positive 3 times she definately did have parvo , won't even discuss the possibilty of maternal anti bodies playing a part or the test being wrong . As i say , I don't understand why they won't help , they are all in my area as pup had only gone to live a few miles away , and their vet is a vet I've used before , but because I have been elsewhere since they say their loyalties lie with the pups owner and they can't act for both of us apparently . I actually got on quite well with this woman before this . She has now admitted that she also has 2 gsd pups ( 9 weeks old and vacc at 6 weeks ) and their mom who are all ok , and she has phoned around the rest of her litters new owners and they are all well . I also remember her saying that she had put the pup outside for wee's because she commented that she was shaking so much out there . The other thing her boyfriend commented on is that the puppy smelt very strongly of puppy so they should have known something was wrong ....

When i had my positive parvo test result back i had another pup in the liter tested who was also poorly(while i was waiting for the pcr result to come back on firest puppy) and this in house test came back NEGATIVE. So if it was antibodies interfering with the reading of results i feel it would have read the same for both pups,i don't know.

I was told the most likely reason for the false positive was that the pups had some sort of virus and that the eliza test is not specific enough and just groups all positive virus readings under parvo.

I think i would collect poo samples from the rest of the litter,get them pcr tested if negative you will have absolutely no worries regarding the rest of the litter as by then it will over two weeks since contact with poorly pup.

It doesn't sound like the vet or new owners are going to let you autopsy the pup so i feel this may be your only way of proving you don't have parvo on your premises.Believe me when that test comes back as negative (which i am convinced it will) you will feel alot stronger to deal with this and quite honestly i think then this new owner won't have a leg to stand on.If it was a true parvo result it had to come from somewhere and you can prove it was  not from you with a pcr on your litter,

Hugs  Ali xx

You will have to deal with the owner if the vet will not help and tell her before you even think of refunding anything until further tests are done. I do now wonder if the vets to cover themselves for a possible incorrect and hasty diagnosis have disposed of the puppies remains, something they should not have done knowing there was a question over the pups death.

If all else fails checking your pups and adults should clear up the matter of Parvo but if they are clear you will still not know what happened to that one pup without a PM, performed independently if possible.

She has now admitted that she also has 2 gsd pups ( 9 weeks old and vacc at 6 weeks ) and their mom who are all ok , and she has phoned around the rest of her litters new owners and they are all well

She already has a litter of GSD pups !!!
She puppy-sat another pup the day after getting yours!
She brought in a baby puppy from another litter (yours) while she still had a litter with the dam!

NONE of this was known to you prior to letting her have a pup.  Had you known, would you have even considered her for a pup?

Curiouser and curiouser

Why were her litter vaccinated at 6 weeks?   My own vet advised against this as maternal antibodies make it pointless.  

What were her litter vaccinated with? was it a killed form of parvo, or a different form?   if not a killed (dead) form then her pups could have been shedding infection - this happens with the polio vaccine for babies, it's shed in their poos and people with a compromised immune system must avoid changing their nappies and contact with faecal material.

If you didn't know about the other dogs/pups already in the home, why weren't you told?  Would you have allowed the pup to go so early had you known?

This is a terrible mess. :(

Hope you have the strength to get to the bottom of this.

if not a killed (dead) form then her pups could have been shedding infection - this happens with the polio vaccine for babies, it's shed in their poos and people with a compromised immune system must avoid changing their nappies and contact with faecal material.
That would surely explain positive test results? :(
I would give this lying woman nothing and for the sake of my puppy, just feel sorry that I'd been conned. :(

So if I'm reading this right...the woman also has 2 9 week old GSD pups vaccinated at 6 weeks plus the GSD mum...?? Could they also have received a further vaccine at 8 weeks...??

Maybe someone can correct me on this if I'm wrong....but I'm fairly certain that some....if not all....vaccines cause the parvo virus to shed in the faeces of recently vaccinated puppies...?? It could be the case that the little one was stressed by the move on Tuesday.....had her food changed....was subjected to flea shampoo/spot on treatment....reacted to that with vomiting and diarreah...was given kaolin and antibiotics....was incubating the virus picked up from the recently vaccinated GSD pups......and by Friday her developing immune system became unable to cope with it all....??

If your other babies are remaining well then I would definitely hold on....and get proof that they don't have the virus.

You can grieve for this little one later....but for now you need to focus your efforts on the well babies.....and get to the bottom of whats happened....

I have now just spoken to my vet , who was actually very understanding . He has said that the gsd's vaccination would not have caused my puppy I sold to get it , but he is also saying that she must have had the virus .He also said that the maternal anti bodies would not affect the test either. The samples taken at the time will be no good to do a pcr and he doesnt see the point of doing them on the remaining pups if they are well . He has advised that if they are still all well by Monday , to take them along for a vet check and first vaccination ( younger litter will only be 6 1/2 weeks so not sure about this ) . He also did say that sometimes it is just one of those things ... and I said I didnt think parvo could be classed as ' just one of those things '!!!!!

From Nova's post earlier "I do now wonder if the vets to cover themselves for a possible incorrect and hasty diagnosis have disposed of the puppies remains, something they should not have done knowing there was a question over the pups death."

So if I am reading the OP's early posts correctly this Vet, who is now protecting her client (and possibly herself now), knew this client had various other situations whereby vikc32's puppy might have become infected. She had the puppy under her care for three days but did not test for parvo, during that time?

Yes , their vet has admitted that she knows that this woman ( who also breeds cats ) had other dogs , she works in a kennels , and has hand reared litters for 'work' before ( which she now is not allowed to do because of this ) but had said that they had never had a problem with her other animals ( strange as she had anti biotics in house ! ) She first saw vet on friday which was when I had a call to say it was suspected parvo but was not tested til after she was dead . I am trying now to concentrate of my remaining pups , who are just polishing off lunch !!

She had the puppy under her care for three days but did not test for parvo, during that time?

That is a point, would have thought that would have been done the moment the pup was referred with sickness and diarrhoea

Ive just read through the whole thread and good grief what a mess!!
This woman is NOT to be trusted.
She seems to have broken every basic rule in the book that surely even an inexperienced owner looking to get a new pup would know!!!!

The very first thing I would do is get the remaining pups at home tested. This is the best starting point. If your pups come back negative surely it will give you the strength to fight and your vet will no doubt be more on board to help you against this woman which consequently may be enough to make her panic that she is try to s***w you and drop the matter. Wishing you so much support.

vikc32 I've just been talking to a breeder friend of mine who came up with some very valid points also.

I use parvocide to clean all areas when I have pups especially once the pups are having visitors, I also make my new pups owners take off their shoes and wash their hands with a bacterial wash whilst viewing and touching my pups to avoid any bacteria or virus being brought through my door, along with the dams antibodies from her milk it keeps the pups protected from all viruses and bacteria at home.

If these things were not done in your home?................. is it possible that a visitor handled this particular pup and passed on the parvo virus just before the pup was sent to the new owner? (possible) It may account for why the rest of the litter is fine, but this pup was not. So you may not be out of the woods in just saying the rest of the litter is fine. (Something I hadn't thought of previously, but a valid point)

However, as the new owner has pups herself she may well have also passed on the virus from visitors at her home to your pup which she will have handled the most. Did she handle your pup before Tuesday? If so and with you not knowing about her pups she may well have infected the pup whilst at your home.

If she did not handle the pup until collection day on Tuesday then it's the incubation period that worries me 4-14 days, that lands first contact at your home not hers due to the fact that she told you the pup was allegedly shivering on Tuesday the day of collection (although this may have been a reaction to the flea treatment - but you can't prove that) For the pup to be violently ill by Thursday evening, first contact of the virus at the latest must have been Monday. If the shivering was the parvo on Tuesday latest contact would have been Saturday.

The flea treatments etc do not cause a virus, (although they may have weakened the pup or even poisoned it) it is a parvo virus that has unfortunately been found by said vet. Now that the dams antibodies have been ruled out you need to think how your pup was infected...........

I agree with all the others,I most certainly would not give this woman a refund + vet bills. That poor puppy has obviously been exposed to a virus from somewhere and common sense says as none of your puppies at home are showing any signs of illness and this woman has puppies of her own at home which she has been selling with people quite possibly coming to her house,who is to say the infection was not already there?. It is quite possible that this womans own dogs may be carrying the virus and although she states that her dogs are all ok it is possible that your puppy with all the food changes,flea treatments and antibiotics just could not cope and became fatally ill. She has lied to her own vet and seriously misled you to obtain your puppy. If it were me I would fight tooth and nail to clear my name and to hell with the cost!! By the way if she wants to sue you then she has to go to the small claims court in the first instance and legal costs are not too high as you do most of the form filling yourself. You need to find your fighting spirit!! The other option is to refund her the purchase price but by doing that you could be seen to be admitting liability.

Kind Regards

I use Mistral Odourfresh which is supposed to kill the parvo , and do make sure shoes are off , although I admit I hadn't used hand gel ( stupid in hindsight I know and certainly will if I ever bring myself to do this again ! ). When people came to view the pups they only handled the particular pups they were interested in and this woman was the second person to come and view a couple of weeks before she took her home ( the only person to touch her before chose another pup and she has her at her home and she still seems fine ) The pups owner came to see her again on the Saturday before she took her home on Tuesday .

im so sorry to read all this i can only imagen what your going though! ive also been told that if the parvo can from you (ie if i had a litter and 1 went with it) the rest would come down with it with in 48h even if it was just 1 pup at a time and you still have other pups there? so im wonering if when she got pup home the pups caught it from her end not yours ,because the virus didnt start for 2 days? pups loose poo the next day could of been because of change of food and water , get all your dogs and pups checked if you get a negative the virus is NOT from you ,thats what i would do xx