Hi,

I mated my small breed bitch she's 4 years old now and has been bred 3 times now all ended up in no pregnancy but they were unproven studs this time around I put her to a proven stud dog of 5 litters she was mated on 11 th day showed slight interest but wouldn't let dog fully mount her just kept snapping at him so then I decided to try her on her 13 th day this time she was mega keen tail flagging like crazy and she kept backing up to the stud dog he humped her serveral times (hope this doesn't sount too rude but it's the only way I can explain this properly) he started with just the slow thrusts and then you could see him thrusting quicker my bitch stayed still for that point until when you'd expect the tie after the very fast thrusting movements thats when she would turn and growl at him and walk away then this repeated serveral times same thing happening all the time so basically I'm going to ask is this called slip matings or not even counted as a mating at all hope some experts here can help thanks

did the male do what we call climbing the ladder? he kind of paces from one back foot to the other? This is when I know that he has ejaculated and if not already tied I would have held him in position whilst you kept your bitch calm talking to her etc I'm surprised the stud owner didn't hold him in position?

I personally think 4 is too old for a first litter, a slip mating is when the dog enters the bitch but doesn't tie, it just sounds like he's thrusting but not actually reaching the target so to speak.

> personally think 4 is too old for a first litter

It does depend on the breed, my breed are in general easy whelpers & I have had first litters from bitches aged 6 and my last litter was from a bitch of 6.5. I would personally say 4 is not too old(depending on breed).

Hi,

in reply to emz I think I did see the climbimg thing from the stud dog sort of briefly but to be honest he never stayed on her on enough we tried her again today same thing just him mounting her but I did see him enter her briefly a few times she was much more in his face this time could it be that she can't be capable of a tie I've agreed to try 1 last time tommorrow and see if we get anywhere as they've been together a few times is day 15 too late thanks to all the people who've replied so far

Hi I forgot to mention in reply to  those that've asked the stud dog owner and I have tried to hold them but the bitch gets irritated of this and growls at us so we are assisting as to speak but not too much for nature to take its course thanks

it sounds to me that this either isn't the right time or she is totally unsure of whats happening. Is she a maiden? if so she will need lot's of reassurance, but to be honest i wouldn't expect her to snapping at you, what is her temperament like usually?
Also who knows whether day 15 is to late for her or even too early each bitch is different and so is each season come to that, some bitches can be ready on day 8 others not till day 18 or later? Have you done any ovulation testing methods on her either yourself or at the vets? As this will give an indication of when the right time is likely to be for mating.

> It does depend on the breed, my breed are in general easy whelpers & I have had first litters from bitches aged 6 and my last litter was from a bitch of 6.5. I would personally say 4 is not too old(depending on breed).

It does say small breed I may be wrong but thought small breeds had to have first litters earlier?

I don't think I would mate at 6 or 6.5 years old, much of that is to do with the fact that our breed rarely live past 10. I feel 4 is a little too old for a first litter unless I was desperate for the litter I.e. the bitch was held back as she was shown and gained many titles which sometimes happens.

Some bitches never tie so Id hold the dogs together.

one of my girls (maiden) was not having any of it when tried with the male from day 12, everyday the same reaction, on day 17 after the same reaction again, i was taking my girl away when the stud bashed the gate open, they ran under the conifer trees and were tied within seconds, she was as calm as anything throughout the tie and that was her only mating. 8 puppies and a superb mum. Obviously she knew when she was ready and knew where she wanted to do it too :)

I definately wouldnt stop trying at day 15 if the stud is still keen, she may just need another day or two.

Also my latest mating which was completely successful too was on day 20!

Good luck

> It does say small breed I may be wrong but thought small breeds had to have first litters earlier?

Spot on Sharon.  And if any of mine had not had a litter by 3 years old, they would be spayed. 

Every time I've heard of people that don't want to take their bitch out of the show ring, so have a first litter at 3 years, it has always ended in heartache.

My breed is sexually mature very young, but I wait until they are grown up in the head too!  For some that will be at the second season, and if they do miss, it isn't so bad to try at the 3rd.  But, to be honest, the couple I have here that were mated on the 3rd season, had more difficult whelpings.

My breeding girls that whelp easily, are spayed at 4 years old anyway.

> Hi I forgot to mention in reply to  those that've asked the stud dog owner and I have tried to hold them but the bitch gets irritated of this and growls at us so we are assisting as to speak but not too much for nature to take its course thanks

I had a visiting bitch back in the summer that wouldn't tie initially.  I got the owner to hold her girl gently at the front, while I waited for the ladder climbing to start.  I held my boy in firm for several minutes.  When I let go they were most definitely tied. 

When I take my girls to other stud dog owners, I expect to reassure them at the front once things have progressed.  I won't however, allow any growling.

As the bitch seems to be warming to things I don't think she has gone over either,b ut it isn't uncommon with toy breeds for them not to tie so he will need to be held in place(you need at least a minute).

Again I would not expect a bitch of good temperament to growl while I held her, but have had bitches very irked by the tie and want to wriggle or roll, and could have hurt the dog or themselves so always hold the bitch steady during a tie, so she has to allow that.

I agree unless this is an easy whelping breed that the age is a bit old for a first litter.

In our easy whelping medium size breed the advise from the breed club is that a bitch should have a  first litter before 5 years of age.

> Every time I've heard of people that don't want to take their bitch out of the show ring, so have a first litter at 3 years, it has always ended in heartache.
>

Sorry, Jean. I know you've got millennia more experience in this than me, but our maiden bitch has just had her litter of 5 healthy pups and she was three in May. Admittedly, her seasons are 9-12 months apart, and we did try at 2 but it was unsuccessful. But she has only matured properly (mentally) in the last year, so I wasn't unhappy. Having said all that, my breed tends to live up to around 14 yrs old, so three is nothing for them!

>I know you've got millennia more experience in this than me, but our maiden bitch has just had her litter of 5 healthy pups and she was three in May.

It very much depends on the breed. Jean has a toy breed, which are often bred from at a young age. With most breeds you wouldn't consider a first litter before 2 years (in fact it's a breed club rule in very many), and 3 years is better. 5 years of age is the latest for a first litter for the average breed.

> Sorry, Jean. I know you've got millennia more experience in this than me, but our maiden bitch has just had her litter of 5 healthy pups and she was three in May. Admittedly, her seasons are 9-12 months apart, and we did try at 2 but it was unsuccessful. But she has only matured properly (mentally) in the last year, so I wasn't unhappy. Having said all that, my breed tends to live up to around 14 yrs old, so three is nothing for them!

You have to take the breed into consideration.  My breed lives well past 14 years for the majority of cases, but I still have them spayed at 4 years.  And this breed would only rarely have a litter as large as yours.   1 - 3 pups being the norm.  They are pretty much matured mentally by a year old. 

I have heard of males siring litters at 6 months of age!  However, I prefer to wait until I see how good a male specimen I have before jumping the gun, so generally, would use a bitch earlier than I would use a dog.  We all answer questions differently, as we tend to give advice related to our own breeds!  :-)

Hi,

Ok she was mated on day 15 as said before this time around the stud dog did get to the point where he'd been thrusting faster and I'd seen the ladder climbing part so stud owner had held the stud dog for a while but what happened was the stud dog had slipped out as to say and no tie can she still be pregnant or is this unlikely

Hi sofie depends when dog sliped out? did you see him slip out? if it was at the end your girl could catch but if he came out just after stud owner was holding him then probley no :( x

Hi White lilly he slipped out after the stud owner held him I'm very dissappointed now :(

well there is every chance she is then....if he done ladder climbing whilst inside (they only need to held in position for 5 mins anyway) then he has done his piece ;-)

:( i know ,if he managed to be in long enough u never know! or was it all over your girl or the floor? x

There were small drops of fluid that fell out on to the floor I'm not convinced she's pregnant she's still flagging at me when I touch her and she'll try to hump my arms and legs is this normal behaviour if she was pregnant I can't take her to the stud dog unfortunately as they said they're busy for the next few days so I think it'll be too late I've ovulation tested her using the ovulation pads you can do at home which change colour if she's ovulating and I still got a positive result today is it worth trying once more on her next season

maybe it was to early for her mating then? and thats why you didnt get a good tie? shame she carnt go back to stud, not sure about next time tho sorry xx

Sorry but surely when the stud dog owner accepted your bitch it is up to them to ensure his availability for matings.

If he was held in place for more than a mi ute then the deposit should have reached it's target, if the timing is right.

As for her behaviour, mine are very fruity with each other long after they re receptive to the male. 

Only her behaviour toward an entire male will tell you if she has gone past her receptive stage.

I was thinking the same brainless... I would never accept a mating for my boy if I knew i wasn't available around that time. I always expect to give 2 matings 2 days apart and want them to tell me roughly when they expect the bitch to come into season and then confirm on day 1 so that way I make sure I am available for the forseeable future until the deed is done.
I would be unhappy with the fact that you can't go back Sofie... I'm not so sure i would want to be trying on the next season if she hasn't taken. fingers crossed for you that this is it

> she's still flagging at me when I touch her and she'll try to hump my arms and legs is this normal behaviour

It is certainly normal for mine.

Although I suppose they are utter trollops anyway.  :-)

> You have to take the breed into consideration.  My breed lives well past 14 years for the majority of cases, but I still have them spayed at 4 years.  And this breed would only rarely have a litter as large as yours.   1 - 3 pups being the norm.  They are pretty much matured mentally by a year old. 
>
>

Very fair comment, Jean! Ours grow up at 3 yrs old, and turn quite sensible almost overnight, which is why I didn't make as much effort to get her pregnant last season as I might have. I agree with you totally on not using males early, mainly because I'd rather know that a male has got to a decent age without having health problems. Easier to keep them out of your lines in the first place! Most people in our breed neuter when their bitch goes into Veteran Class.

> want them to tell me roughly when they expect the bitch to come into season and then confirm on day 1 so that way I make sure I am available for the forseeable future until the deed is done.
>

Agreed!  I always, always ask for notification of day one.  There is nothing worse than having booked a bitch for an approximate date, then only receive a phone call on the day she is ready.

Nice to know that asking to be advised on day one is usual for others.

> Nice to know that asking to be advised on day one is usual for others.

It's only manners surely as we can't rely on girls to be exact when provisionally booking.