Hi , I'm hoping someone can help me as I am so worried !
I currently 2 litters of pups , born a week apart . All has been going well until now . The first pup from the older litter went to its new home last Tuesday afternoon , and I had a phonecall yesterday telling me she had died . She had starting being sick Thursday evening , and had been taken to the vets on Friday evening , given fluid under her skin and sent home with anti biotics and some sachets to replace the salts / minerals etc in her body ( sorry , dont know the proper name ) She continued to be sick so was taken back in on saturday and kept in . She died Sunday lunchtime :-(
The remaining 7 pups that I have at home all seem fine , as does the only other one that has gone to its new home , but obviously I am so worried for them . I had a youngster who had what appears to be a very similar illness about 4 months ago , but she pulled through ( although she was hospitalised for 4 days ) and she was tested for everything including parvo and all came back negative ... told it was a nasty bug and that any new arrivals should be fine .
Just wondered if any of you have any ideas ... it seems far too quick for her to have picked something up from her new house and as such I am living in constant fear for my others !!!!

I know how worried you must be over this. Just a thought but did the new owners put any pour on pesticide on the puppy or treat it with a wormer? I warn new puppy owners not to treat their puppies with any "pour ons" and not to use two wormers which I specify as I have had  puppies become extemely ill when treated with these after they left me. I have seen the effects of one of these wormers on my own puppies and view it as very unsafe to use. I only use Drontal for my own dogs and puppies and have never had any bad effects.

All they have said is that they bathed her in flea shampoo as soon as they got her home ( I had explained that I hadnt  yet flea treated them ) then got some sort of flea treatment from Tesco but didnt say what . Apparently she was shaking a lot too to begin with , and had a bit of runny poo so they gave her some pro kaolin ( ? ) to try to help that .

In that case I believe you can feel confident that the puppy left you in a healthy state. I presume they read the label on this flea treatment properly and it was specifically sold for young puppies? Plus they did not allow the puppy to lick or swallow any of it? Young puppies should be treated with great respect with regard to potential poisons. In my opinion they should not be given preventative treatment for external parasites and  treated with great care if affected with fleas etc.

Think I would ask for the vets telephone number and then phone them to see what they has to say, he should be open with you if you explain go still have pups in the nest and do not want them to leave till you find out what happened.

sounds suspicously like they have accidently overdosed the pup with flea killers :(
they aren't all suitable for young pups and why did they bathe her in one product and then put on yet another?

Have just got off the phone from the owner . They are doing a parvo test and her vet has reccomended that I hold onto all other pups for at least a fortnight to be sure . Apparently she had been unwell from the Wednesday , and the vet has said any bug would have at least a 48 hour incubation period , meaning she must have had it before she left on Tuesday . I had only assumed that if it was a bug that they would all have come down with it fairly quickly after one another , and we are now 6 days after she left and 4/5 days after she became ill .

I am sorry to hear about the puppy vikc32.  However, in 30 years of breeding I have never had to de-flea puppies and I would be mortified if I needed to do this.  I wonder why you even mentioned that the puppies hadn't been de-flead (unless you have a flea problem???).  It's not something I even discuss with potential puppy owners. 

Just curious as to why this little pup went to its new home so long before any of the others?  Very sad and I hope you get some answers soon.

Id hold off until all tests are done and find out why the puppy has died, all I can think is about poor puppy owners :(

When we got our first pup we had a cat flea problem in the garden and pup caught them.  I treated pup with powder  flea treatment from petshop - for pups.  20 minutes later pup was shaking and gums very pale.  With daughter's help I bathed pup and removed all traces of treatment and gave a piriton tab as I suspected allergic reaction and anaphylaxis.  Vet confirmed this when I spoke to her on the phone and on checking pup agreed I'd done the right thing, told me NEVER to use Pyrethrins on my dog ever again as she was likely to die.   Pup later had runny poos for a day or two which I treated with Bio Yoghurt and rehydration salts.

I was lucky.  The pup went downhill so fast it could only have been the flea powder, I recognised what it was and acted quickly.  If the reaction had been slower or I hadn't paid attention, then I might not have recognised it for what it was and the outcome could have been a dead pup.

Flea treatments can be VERY dangerous!

Hope you get to the bottom of this, it must be awful for you.

We have a visiting cat that I suspect has fleas as I had found a flea on one of the pups ( all my adults dogs are routinely flea treated because of this ) . I had arranged to pick up some frontline spray from the vets for pups but this lady wanted to pick up her puppy before I had chance to go and get it , which was why I explained to her that they hadn't been done . I went through her with a flea comb before she went and couldnt find any live fleas on her but there was a bit of flea dirt ... so I guess , yes , I have had a flea problem that I hold my hands up to and am trying to get under control . This pup went before the others as she is from the slightly older litter ( I have 2 litters born a week apart ) , one other went to her new home on Thursday and seems fine , and the other 3 are being collected next weekend as it is half term and they are going to families who would like them then . I too feel very sorry for the lady involved , and of course will try and solve this as amicably as possible . Her vet is still saying whatever bug it is has to have come from me and she was poorly too quickly after leaving ( she had runny poo next day , but her food had been changed so not sure if that was the start and the sickness started round about 2 days after she had gone ) I am putting everyone else off from collecting their pups until I can be as sure as possible that they are safe .. and I have everything crossed for my pups

Most flea shampoos state they are not to be used on Young puppies, and if they then used some other flea treatment on top they could well have poisoned the pup.

I would never treat young pups unelss there was an issue and then only on veterinary advice with anything other than Frontline Spray (not spot on).

i too feel sorry for the owners but! they should of gone to vets to treat for fleas, they shouldnt of changed pups food ,its bad enough the change of water inless you sent them with your water (i always do) to help pup settle with getting the runs, if you told them not to change food and you did tell them about fleaing pup ,what im trying to say is wait to see what vets say and if its not a bug that was caught from yours you can stop worrying about the rest of the litter(s) i hope i dont sould heartless im truley not ,poor baby xx

I have spoken to her again, and she assures me the shampoo was safe and that she used a Bob Martin Spot On suitable from 2 weeks ( not sure if there is a minimum weight on it ) She is known to the vets and from what I can make out has had a problem there before ( from the reaction I got ) so maybe that is why she didn't go for advise straight away , instead trying to treat it with the pro Kaolin and some antibiotics she had in the house already . I guess we won't know unless the parvo test comes back as positive for sure what it was , whatever it is I feel responsible as I should have stuck to my guns and kept the puppy here longer until I was happy I had sorted the flea issue . The only other puzzler is that I have a 10 week old pup that is also fine , showing no symptons ... but apparently this lady puppy sat a neighbours pup too the day after she collected hers from me , who also seems to be fine ... I may have to leave our vets to chat , hers is saying is must have come from me , mine is saying that if it had they would all have come down with it in fairly quick succession ... who knows ?

She may have misread the label, it says from TWELVE WEEKS here: http://www.bobmartin.co.uk/Dogs/Product_Info.html?product_id=1042
"Bob Martin Flea Shampoo for Dogs and Puppies

Kills fleas on dogs and puppies and helps to maintain a glossy, healthy coat.

For use on dogs and puppies from 12 weeks of age.

Not suitable for use on nursing bitches.

Remove fleas from young puppies and nursing bitches with careful use of a flea comb."

The spot on here: http://www.bobmartin.co.uk/Dogs/Product_Info.html?product_id=1035 says from two weeks

I would go and look at the products she used so that I knew exactly what the labelling said.

I'm not sure if it was a Bob Martin shampoo she used or just the spot on ... may have been a different brand of shampoo , but I'm also not sure yet if it is the flea products that have caused a problem . I am sitting here , typing away , looking at my pups , almost waiting for one to be sick or have nasty poo ... :-(

How very sad.  Whatever else may or may not have happened when I read your first post my immediate thought was Parvo.  A friend of mine in the States had puppies who picked up a very rare strain of it (brought in, she thinks, from a rescued imported dog who moved in next door).  She went through much of what you described in your first post and it took them a while to figure it out.  Three pups survived, but spent months recovering.

It could definitely be a toxic reaction to the flea stuff, but I'm glad they're doing a Parvo test to rule that out.

Hope that a PM is being done on puppy that has died so that you know for certain why it died.

From the information you have gleaned so far it does sound that this person may have contributed to puppy's woes
Most knowledgeable dog peole know that you don't take puppy from breeder and immediately change it's food it's asking for puppy to have a poorly tummy - would suggest that you advise all other puppy people to keep puppies on the same food for at least two weeks possibly til after they've completed their puppy innoculations.

If puppy was poorly why on earth wait 24 hours before taking it to a vet.
Sure her vet wouldn't be happy to learn she self treated with antibiotics prior to taking to vet.
This is illegal practise by the way. Makes you wonder what else the new owner has done to save money.

Sounds like the puppy was overdosed with flea treatment if it was both shampooed and treated with spot on.
Products such as Frontline you are advised not to bath for x number of hours after being treated. Sure this will be the same for this particular spot on (can you check the instructions in the packet?) I think there has been a case
of a dog dying after it's owners did this - sure it was reported in the dog press. Think this was a pets passport problem
as the dog was shown and bathed plus needed the flea treatments etc. This dog was treated with Frontline thou.
Know that the product they used (BM) is toxic to cats and they've had cases of cats dying.

Personally I'd be asking your vet to contact theirs and see if they will discuss the case between the two vets.
Patient confidentiality may prevent this so you may have to get the puppy owners permission for the two vets to talk to each other. It may mean that they think the sensible option is to run tests on all the pups you have at home to see if any are carrying 'bugs' or they may opt to wait for PM results to come back = not sure how quickly this can be done.

I'd also be getting all puppies you still have vet checked prior to leaving you - not sure how long it takes pups to incubate parvo or gastro problems. Your vet should be able to help advise you when it's safe to let other puppies leave to go to their new homes.

The other thing is that some breeds shouldn't have certain products as they have sensitivity to such products and it can cause death in some cases i.e. Collie's with ivermectin etc.

I have just had the worst news ever.... she had returned a positive result for parvo !

was this from the vet themselves or the new owners? I would ask to see it in writing.

I have spoken to their vets ( who are surprised at the result , but never the less it is a positive )
I am absolutely distraught .... I don't know what to do !! :-(

Oh my, you poor thing.

I'm sure if it came from you the other pups would have it by now.  Did you get this news from the vets or the woman?  I know when i had a dog with it when was young, there was no mistaking what it was due to the colour of the sick that was coming up, it was almost neon green.  Thankgod i only ever experienced this once and my baby pulled through fairly quickly.  Maybe due to having the dog there in hours.

Are you sure she didn't take the dog out walking prior to injections or had someone bring it to her house.  don't be too upset yet as its not your fault and you don't know the truth as to what really happened.

We are at day 7 from her leaving and day 5 from her starting to vomit ( she had diarrhea(?) the day after she went but i thought that was stress plus change of food , so day 7 from her leaving , day 6 from her poo being funny and day 5 from the vomiting . She only had her a couple of days so it must have come from me .

I would get the other pups tested before they leave for there new homes that way you can be sure that they have a clean bill of health and you will also have the proof then... I am very sorry for your dilemma, i hope you get this resolved

Hi Vickc32,

Please be aware of false positive in these parvo tests.I had a positive come back on a litter i had recently.To make absolutely sure i went for a second opinion and had a pcr test done which is far more reliable then the parvo tests the vets do by stool samples initially.Thank god the result came back negative and the first result had been a false positive but i webt through a week of hell til these second results came back. Apparantly false positives are quite common and can crop up mwhen pups are suffering many different viruses not just parvo,so please take heart from this and maybe you could ask your own vet to do a pcr test on your remaining pups.

I really do know what you are going through having been there myself (although i didn't lose a pup) and i strongly recommend a second more reliable test. Also the fact that the rest of the litter are fine 7 days later does not seem to be acting like parvo,i think you would have a far sicker litter by now xx

Yes, do get all the other pups and adults checked and if they are clear then it did not come from you and if they are not you will be ready and eagle eyed to catch any change in their health, and if clear able to send them to their new homes with confidence.

I'd still be very suspicious of the flea treatment -especially as it was all over the counter stuff. I tell all buyers to never EVER use anything not bought from a vet or vet pharmacy, as pet shop stuff can and do kill -that goes for both flea treatment and wormers. Also remember a few years ago when a lot of animals died from out of date spot on flea treatments? Keeping my fingers crossed it isn't parvo.

I have phoned my vets to ask about the possibility of a false positive on the parvo test and to enquire about the pcr test ( I've never heard of one unfortunately ) . The parvo test done was an ELIZA test . Typically there is no one there I can speak to so I have another night of no sleep and plenty of worry ... and no eating but being sick ! ( might even lose some weight ! )

ELISA tests (enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay antigen test)  identify antibodies to the virus which can result in false positives, PCR (Polymerase Chain Reaction) amplifies the DNA of the virus itself, so will be more accurate and is therefore unlikely to cause a false positive. Hope you get sorted and all your babies pull through OK x

Hi Vikc32,

How is your litter this morning? You must be out of your mind with worry but remember these tests do throw up false positives quite often.I hope that is what has happenened in your case.

Ali x

Hi Ali ,
All pups up and seem well , are eating , playing and pooing as normal ... I know we are no where near out of the woods with them yet though . It is so worrying , I just don't understand ....

When i had my positive parvo result (after completely freaking out!!) i rang everybody i could think of for opinions while i was waiting for the back up test result to come back (which took just under a week).

Everybody i spoke to ,including people that had experienced parvo said it goes through them normally like the black death and usually the whole litter goes down if not within hours then certainly days.For the rest of your litter to be fine 8 days later does not sound at all like classic parvo. I know you always have to bear that positive result in mind and make sure nobody is incubating anything but as each day goes by from my own experience it seems very unlikely your litter has parvo.

My vet told me they have quite a few positive parvo test results but if the owner decided to have the pcr to confirm, more often than not it comes back negative and the true number of parvo cases is quite rare thankfully.

Thinking of you xx

the true number of parvo cases is quite rare thankfully
Absolutely right!  I've no idea (well maybe I can suspect! :( ) why anything other than the PCR test is done these days.

I am so sorry this has happened to your pup, it must be devastating! At the end of the day you have identified several things that the new owners have done since taking your puppy home any one of which could be the reason for this tragedy occuring. I would be pushing for the other test (you learn something every day here on Champdogs!!).

I would very much like to defend your position regarding the fleas. I'm sure I as a dog owner would be extremely happy if they never picked up a flea - we have had a nightmare here this summer with the blighters - my dogs are always picking them up whether treated or not. My house is not infested either, but we have a cat and have several who visit our garden, so the risk is never far away...

We have just had our second ever litter of pups. Mum had to be sprayed whilst pregnant with Frontline spray which was no easy task as she was in full coat and is a large double-coated gundog breed. Needless to say, I noticed pups had some fleas fairly early on, and despite my very best efforts with the comb, even bathing them, and finally spraying with Frontline, the problem has just not gone away. Does anyone else like me think that Frontline is not working???

My vet has been very helpful although putting chemicals onto puppies will never sit very easily with me... but it had to be done in the end. Do I feel bad, you bet! But I have done everything possible to prevent this and it's still happened.

I think it is a fact of life that some animals will pick up fleas, even from the garden! It is not a failing on your part (or mine) that they sometimes pick them up.

I think this new owner did practically everything wrong, from changing the food (the reason why ours go with a large bag of the stuff), bathing in flea shampoo, using a supermarket brought spot-on, using some antibiotics they conveniently had in the back of the cupboard, not taking the pup to the vet straight away... and that's what you know about!!

I guess until you know for certain what caused this (truly hope it isn't the dreaded Parvo), it does look very much like something they have caused. Scary thought!!

I hope your remaining pups stay well and it does turn out not to be Parvo.

In response to Itsadogslife re fleas:
We came back from a show infested and passed them to the other three. I am ashamed to say that we have been battling this for 2 months, carpets steam cleaned, treated, dogs had garlic upped, dogs are groomed and inspected daily ( I am beginning to feel like a monkey!) I do not like chemicals BUT on the advice of my homeopath she said that is the way she would go, she said this year is the worst they have seen- we have not have fleas in 13 years!! I have been pulling my hair out trying to get rid of them :( She said to use the spray as they appear to be becoming immune to the spot on.

Hope the OP's litter thrive, I agree with others to have them vet checked and although I am thankful to have never experience parvo I also believe it spreads like wildfire.
Good luck

I've just read through the thread again and from what i can make out the new owner shampooed pup for flres,then spot on'd pup,then gave it pro kaolin and ALSO  some antibiotics she had in the cupboard already so self medicating pup herself.

I would be very,very surprised if all this is not what saw that poor little pup off,not Parvo.

I have just had a call from their vets who have now had 3 tests done on the puppys poo samples ( all ELISA tests I guess ) and all have come back positive. Surely 3 can't be wrong ! I am now just waiting for my other babies to come down with it as surely they will . Owner is asking for refund plus vets bills and I guess now after these results I have to just give it to them ( please don't think the money is the issue , it is not at all , but do I just give it them and let this pup rest in peace ) :-(

I would still want a PCR test done before I accepted responsibility.  It seems strange that none of the others are even poorly.
Do you use Petplan insurance for your puppies?  I don't know if it's changed but pups used to be covered from the minute they left the breeder.

I have no faith in these tests after my experience and would have a pcr test on remaining pups.Unfortunatley pcr results take a few days to come back.

I know how hard it is to think straight and be positive when you have had this news but i would be so surprised if a pcr came back positive when the rest of your litter are so well.

As for the refund,i just don't know.I really think the pups death was caused by a toxic overload so not your fault but with all the stress you are under i would be tempted to refund in full and move on.

I really feel for you and hope your pups stay happy and healthy xx

Have you used a good household flea killer line Acclaim or RIP, unless the environment is done the dogs will keep re-infesting as fleas only spend a bit of their time on the dog.

The household flea stuff will stop them reproducing leaving only the dog to be treated as ans when.

If the house is not done thoroughly you will have a constant reservoir of new hatched fleas.

If the house is done the stuff lasts 6 or 12  months so any new fleas brought in will be dealt with by the spray on the dogs and won't be reproducing.

Never had an issue with fleas, touch wood, even though the garden attracts cats (much to my Inkas fury.

For the first time in February 2009 I was horrified to fidn a ticks on a pup.  Considering they go out into a convrete and bare earth area, I was horrified.   I appear to have ticks in my garden, how who knows, other than hedgehogs and Foxes, and birds no tic prone creature should be able to get in my suburban city garden. 

The adults have not picked them up as the dogs area has no grass, but a litter of pups I had at that time picked them up once going outside and so did my last litter when they were out in June.  I used Frontline to kill the little bleeders, but short of removing all grass from the garden don't know how to eliminate them, or why the adults are not picking them up, as I check regularly by section combing when grooming once a week, and don't routinely spray them any more.

I do use a Pyrethrum dog shampoo when the dogs are bathed which isn't very often.

> I have just had a call from their vets who have now had 3 tests done on the puppys poo samples ( all ELISA tests I guess ) and all have come back positive. Surely 3 can't be wrong !

I would think its highly possible that the same test could give a false positive more than once. I would get the other test done for your own peace of mind, after all you have other puppies to think of. At least then you and the new owners of the other puppies will know for definite if there is a parvo issue with the litters.

I have only used Bob Martin's spot on once many years ago and the dog had a severe allergic reaction to it

Owner is asking for refund plus vets bills and I guess now after these results I have to just give it to them

Was the puppy insured when you sold it?

I am so sorry to hear this,but many yrs ago I had a pup who I sold to someone I knew,he only had him for a few days and bought him back to me,swearing he had not let him near other dogs or let him outside his garden. Within 2 days pup was very poorly and in a matter of days 3 more pups came down with parvo.I had them all pts as they really were suffering. My point is IF this were parvo you would have a lot of very sick puppies by now. You really do need to demand a pcr test. Their vet can only test the sample they have so it's quite possible that they will get the same false (hopefully) result every time with elisa. I know how upset you are but you have to stand your ground on this as you need to know exactly why this pup died. Would your vet be willing to deal with the owners vet directly? It may be that another vet asking for the pcr test may do the trick and get it done.

Kind Regards

All my pups are sold with the kennel clubs insurance , but as she had asked to pick her up before originally agreed date and came as I had to go to school , we agreed that we would do it after , obviously not expecting there to be a problem , so the insurance kicked in after she is saying pup got poorly so she is not covered unfortunately

I would not be giving the new owners anything until a pcr test had been proven that it had come from you (having the rest of litters done) that way they can see that it wasn't from you as others have said you would have had a lot of very sick pups possibly even dead by now. It just seems to me that the new owners totally overloaded the poor pup and self medicating is very wrong. Have they done a PM of the puppy? I would ask them to do this also maybe by your own vet?

If, as has been said here the ELISA tests for the presents of antibodies then one would expect the results to be the same, and I do not think you can rely on this test being a 100% accurate.

I would offer no compensation until you get a different set of tests done, as you say it is not the money it is necessary for your peace of mind and future practice to know exactly what this pup died of no matter how painful the finding out is.

For the sake of the puppies you still have and your own knowledge have further tests done, you may or may not have contributed towards this painful experience but you certainly owe it to yourself and future owners of your pups to know exactly what happened to this poor little pup.

(As an aside surely a pup born to a bitch who has at sometime in their life had a vaccination would be carrying antibodies whilst this young, would be interested in any informed opinion on this)

That's a shame about the insurance. I prefer the Pet Plan one myself as it becomes active the second the new owner leaves your house. You activate it online or over the phone whilst the buyer is with you -or even before they arrive. I sold a kitten once that became ill and died and they paid up as she had her free kitten insurance.

I don't know what the answer is. :(

> (As an aside surely a pup born to a bitch who has at sometime in their life had a vaccination would be carrying antibodies whilst this young, would be interested in any informed opinion on this)

Their vet told me yesterday that the parvo vaccine is licensed for 2 years ... and yes , mom was vaccinated but as you say , I too would be interested in anyone's informed opinion . The only literature I can find on the ELISA test claims it is at least 95% accurate . Does anybody know what they would need to do a PCR test ? Just wondering as I don't know what has happened to the pup as yet .