My poor old collie girl Rosie has apparently torn the cruciate ligament in her right hind leg, she's off to the vets tomorrow for X-rays and then straight into surgery (as long as the vets doesn't have any other emergencies he says)

She's nearly 12yrs and although really fit and healthy with good heart and lungs I'm still worried for her at her age.

She did it on Monday and at first we thought she'd just strained a muscle so rested her on Tuesday but after no change on Wednesday I took her to the vets.

She's not made one single cry of pain not even when she did it, but she is depressed because she can't walk and run with all of the other dogs.

Deep down I'm hoping that the vet got it wrong when he examined her.

Wish her luck for me.

Pinky do be aware that the recovery period for a cruciate op is VERY long and very critical if the operation is to be a success - NO jumping, walking upstairs, exercise on lead only etc.  It also puts a strain on the other cruciate.  She won't be able to walk or run with the other dogs for months.  Having nursed a couple of dogs through the op (not mine thank goodness) I would seriously consider whether to put one of mine through it. :(
I really hope that's not what the X-rays find.

> I would seriously consider whether to put one of mine through it.

You don't mean PTS do you?

I really got the impression from the vet that it was not such a big deal he never said a word about long recovery I did ask him about the prognosis and all he said was 'nothing is a certainty'.

He was a locum and very young, can this injury be felt just by examination?

When I said to the vet that my boy had damaged his when on a run in the army and he didn't need surgery the vet said that people can learn to walk with crutches and have their legs strapped up and dogs can't! :(

No, but I'd certainly try cage rest first, difficult though it is, it's no different to the recovery period after the op, and you can judge how she might cope with the convalescence.  Some dogs cope better than others - so do their owners!
I've seen many cases where the owners were lulled onto a false sense of security, weren't vigilant enough and dog had to have the operation done again. :(  And other cases where the owners were very strict but it put so much strain on the other leg that it needed the same operation 3 months later, which meant the poor dogs was severely restricted for 6 months. :(

The vet gave me the impression that there was no other way, he said if it wasn't done then there would be severe damage to the joints and then arthritis would set in.

He also said that it would depend on how bad the damage was as to whether she would just need a couple of stitches in the ligament for a small tear or complete rebuild if it is totally torn. He was talking £1000 for just the lesser of the types of surgery.

Having an older bitch that has had repairs to both her back legs previously done 12 months apart it does depend on your dogs size as to weather cage rest will be sufficient to allow the joint to stabalise enough to give her a good range of pain free movement. Having said that a repair doesn't mean that the bitch will have no problems from arthritis either and there is the risk of her rupturing the cruciate in the other leg depending how she did this one.

She's quite a small BC and weighs only just over 14kg.

She was running after a tennis ball, caught it and turned to run back to OH but was limping, she even dropped the ball at his feet ready for him to throw again.

She has always been extremely active although less now she's older but she still likes a good ball game. I know she'd totally freak if I shut her in a cage, keeping her house bound with lead walk up the garden for toilet would be easier.

I'm prepared for arthitis anyway, and prepared to allow her less activity when she's recovered but am worried about surgery.

prepared to allow her less activity
Pinky, for the operation to be successful, it's no activity that's required for some time afterwards.  Arthritis seems to be inevitable either with or without the operation.
Let's not worry about things that may not be relevant and wait for an accurate diagnosis eh? :) :)

> Let's not worry about things that may not be relevant and wait for an accurate diagnosis eh?

Good idea because I'm getting more and more worried, I'll let you know after tomorrow's vet visit.

My girl had a cruciate repair using the TPLO method and it was done by a very experienced specialist in June.
For the first 6 weeks it was strict crate rest only coming out on the lead to the toilet.
My girl is only now starting to get some normailty back in her life and has hydrotherapy weekly and is exercising for about 30-45 mins twice a day on lead or on a flexi lead in an enclosed field.  I have tried letting her off for short periods but don't let her charge about and play as she hasn't built up enough muscle to cope with that yet.

Sorry to read about you old girl, I don't have an direct experience of cruciate problems but just wanted to add my thoughts.
If you're not sure then I would have the xrays and go home and think about it for a day, don't let them rush you straight into something if she's not suffering too much.
From what I understand of cruciate problems there is a rang of severity from slightly torn to completely ruptured. I know people (in agility) who have had dogs with cruciate damage, some have been operated on and some have been given inflammatory s and rest and been allowed to heal by themselves.

I'm afraid I would be reluctant to allow an operation on a 12 year old dog that was likely to have a long and possibly difficult recovery period. If she can be made comfortable without it, even if it shortens the time she has left, I would personally think that was preferable.
Dog's live in the now and we can't make them understand that they are suffering now to gain later. they have no concept of tomorrow. 

Just my opinion and I'm sure there are other's who would disagree with age being a factor.

The main point I wanted to make was think about it first, it sounded a bit like they were planning to dive straight in after the xray and I don't like to think of people being rushed into anything they're not happy with
Have they given you a ball park cost yet? I had heard that cruciate ops run into 4 figures so not a minor thing.
.
If you do find a non invasive treatment is an option I have heard that hydrotherapy is supposed to be good for rehabilitation. Is she insured? Some companies will pay for complimentary therapy's if your vets recommend it.

Good luck, let us know what the news is with the xray, fingers crossed for you. 

>for the operation to be successful, it's no activity that's required for some time afterwards.

This is not strictly true.  It depends on the type of surgery required.  My large crossbreed had his first cruciate repair 4 years ago (aged 2 and a half), and the second one 10 months later.  Both times, he was on kennel rest at the vets for approx. 5 days afterwards. Once home, our vet (an orthopaedic specialist of over 40 years experience - sadly retired now) was adamant that he should have regular exercise, starting with very short lead walks of no more than a few minutes twice a day, gradually building up frequency and duration as the leg healed. 

I would seriously consider whether to put one of mine through it

My lurcher has just had TPLO surgery (to repair a joint with a partially ruptured cruciate). His recovery is luckily going really well, but it does take many weeks/months and rehabilitation has to be done very carefully! My lurcher was able to walk on the surgery leg from day 2, and now at 10 weeks post surgery he isn't lame anymore when walking and only very little when trotting.

The rehabilitation needs to be done very carefully and in a structured manner. It includes lead walks only (toilet walks only for first two weeks, then 5 minutes three times daily, then increase by 5 minutes every week etc), physio (ROM exercises, sit/stand squats, massage, hydrotherapy, hill walking etc) and careful management of the living area to prevent jumping, running etc.

First of all, what type of repair surgery is planned? There are several types, recovery times vary. Secondly, is your 12-year old a young or an old 12-year old? I would also make a decision taking this into consideration. My lurcher is 9, but he is a very young 9-year old, and I had absolutely no hesitation to put him through the surgery. Now, if that had been my 11-year old pyrenees, it would have been a whole different story...!

There is an excellent website about the different types of surgery and rehab programs, might be worth looking at it: http://www.cruciatesurgery.com/ 

I absolutely agree with Shaynlola about this.   My friends Rottie aged 3 had the op.   5 days rest at the vets, then slow lead walk few minutes twice every day for toileting slowly increasing the time.   She walked him on the lead whilst her Retriever did his own thing whilst they were out.   Hard work for her and it took about six months to recover fully but hes as right as rain now.
Yes, £1000 sounds like a lot of money and Triggers operation cost closer to £4000 BUT she adores the dog and there is no way shed have had him put to sleep when the leg was repairable.   Ever her Retriever seemed to understand!
A year down the road now and hes having the time of his life! 

My girl had a cruciate repair using the TPLO method and it was done by a very experienced specialist in June.
For the first 6 weeks it was strict crate rest only coming out on the lead to the toilet.
My girl is only now starting to get some normailty back in her life and has hydrotherapy weekly and is exercising for about 30-45 mins twice a day on lead or on a flexi lead in an enclosed field.  I have tried letting her off for short periods but don't let her charge about and play as she hasn't built up enough muscle to cope with that yet.

Wow, my lurcher has also had TPLO, but in August, so is now only just 10 weeks post surgery. However, he had toilet break walks up to 2 weeks post surgery, then increasingly long walks from then. By six weeks (when he had x-rays), he was on 3 x 20 minute walks, he is now on 2 walks, one about 40 minutes (including 10 minutes stair walking) and one 30 minutes (including a minute or two jogging). I also do other physio exercises (e.g. sit/stand, curb walking, walking circles, putting front legs on chair to move weight to back legs etc) and he has just started hydrotherapy. In two weeks time, I will change to 1 walk of about an hour, also adding some hill walking.
The hydrotherapist measured his muscle mass and his operated leg is alread the same size again as the healthy leg. He is not lame anymore and you can only see a very slight limp when jogging (trotting).

I am a little surprised that after 4 months, your dog is still lacking so much muscle... Perhaps it would be worth downloading the following TPLO guide to add some physio exercises to help build her muscle and improve use of the leg: http://www.tploguide.com/

Sorry, I hope this doesn't come across patronising, I am just genuinely surprised about the fact that your dog seems less far progressed with recovery eventhough the surgery was twice as long ago. I expect Dylan to be pretty much back to normal by 4 months post surgery (he would be now if I let him), though I will be careful with him until 6 months post op as the cruciate in his other leg is also partially ruptured.

Vera

> She's quite a small BC and weighs only just over 14kg.
>

i would definately op for strict rest and not the op, but thats just my own opinion from my own experiences, i have had 4 cruciates yes 4! 2 with surgery and 2 without, they healed within the same amount of time and the ones that had no surgery show no signs of problems at all, that may come with age but arthritis will be there with or without surgery, as soon as the vet opens the joint for surgery they casue some degree of arthritis, so personally i see the op as not always neccessary. Since my new vet where i live now i would never rush into surgery for a cruciate again.

The dogs that healed with rest were 40kg & 45kg so alot heavier than your girl.

i hope all goes well whatever you decide

hello all

I picked Rosie up this afternoon after x-ray only, when I dropped her off this morning I saw a more senior vet who said they would definately not go straight into surgery after x-ray as it would not give me time to discuss the options. She did comment that it surprised her to see Rosie putting some weight on her leg.

It definately is her cruciate although how bad I'm not sure yet, the vet did say that they looked at it from several angles to be sure so that sort of makes me think it may not be a total rupture.

I am to take her back on Thursday to see a surgeon who will go through the options with me which are all linked to her age, lifestyle and my finances.

She is provisionally booked in for next Wednesday.

I shall look at the links that some of you have given.
She's still a bit sorry for herself but has had a very small tea and in resting in her favourite spot.

I'll keep you posted

Advice seems to vary greatly on rehabilitating a dog after TPLO. I was also told no walks at all for 6 weeks, just out to the toilet. After this it was 2 weeks of 3 x 10 minute lead walks a day, then 2 weeks of 3 x 15 minute lead walks a day and so on. He started hydrotherapy at 3 months post-op and at around 4 months post op I started trotting him in the garden on lead for a minute or two at a time. He wasn't let off the lead until almost 6 months post-op. I was advised not to do any physio as you can often do more harm than good (my surgeon's opinion). I never saw any hint of a limp after 2 weeks post op and would be concerned that if your lurcher is limping when trotting then he is doing too much too soon..? Advice given probably also depends on the breed/size of the dog - mine is a 43kg Dobermann and Bev's is a Rottie/GSD cross (I think) so alot of bulk to carry around.

Interesting Zarah. When I saw Dylan's referral vet, he said he was only slighly lame due to the muscle not built up fully yet (that was at six weeks post op), the bone was healed. It is also normal for people to do physio after surgery, so surely it can't be much different for dogs?
Dylan is in fact not limping anymore at all now (it wasn't actually a limp, just a very slight favouring of the other side) after hydrotherapy last week-end, so it looks like the slight limping was more down to a habit of moving wrongly with that leg than anything else. Dylan is a 21kg lurcher by the way.

Interestingly the referral vet was very pleased at how Dylan was walking at 6-weeks post op and the hydrotherapist was amazed how well Dylan was walking/weightbearing at 10 weeks post op, so I doubt I am doing too much. Apart from the online guide I posted, I also followed my referral vet's recommendation to the letter.

There have been studies that found that dogs that had physiotherapy did better after TPLO than those that didn't have any (other than walking).

There is also the theory that the 50% occurance of rupturing the cruciate on the other leg is only this high due to lack of adequate rehabilitation after surgery.

But I guess like with everything, it depends on the individual dog. TPLO is also a relatively new procedure and only recently becoming more popular, so I guess there will still be many different opinions about the rehabilitation until more experience is gained with the different ways of doing things. And only the long-term outcome will tell me whether what I have done was any good or not. But so far, I am more than happy with Dylan's progress as are all the professionals that are dealing with him. :-)

One important thing to remember is that apart from good rehabilitation, it is also very important to put the dog on a good joint (glucosamine etc) supplement to help prevent or slow down the almost inevitable onset of arthritis in that joint.

I am pleased to say my girl has not has a limp since a week or two post surgery and the european specialist that done my girls op said take it slowly and do the complete rest for the first 6 weeks and you won't have a problem.
Because my girl weighs 44 kg and is totally neurotic, bouncy and like a mad thing they did put an extra pin in to give her more stability and they did sedate her for those first crucial 6 weeks.
At the six week check and x-ray i was told it was healing beautifully and to start the 10 min walks twice a day and slowly build up from there, having complete rest between. 
I also started hydrotherapy at this point.  9 weeks post op my girl had a big swelling appear  and she had to go back and have the pin out which put her back a couple of weeks on the muscle building front.
However this week I have been told her muscle is coming back nicely so yesterday she went off lead and enjoyed a run and the same today.  She is 100% sound on the leg, so although you may think its been slow, I do now have a totally sound dog with no trace of a limp and with lovely straight movement, so for us its paid off.
I was told by the specialist if you done too much too soon your dog had a high chance of  ending up with a limp or other complications and I am just glad we took it very slowly, i would rather wait an extra few weeks and have this result. 
I have seen some dogs who have ended up with the leg at a funny angle, when sitting, or standing or moving around, those i asked with dogs like this all started activity much quicker or did not completely confine thier dogs in those first 6 weeks.
I am not saying its wrong to exercise earlier everyone has thier own opinions and in lighter dogs it may be fine, but I would not change doing what i done if i could turn back time as seeing her move nobody would know she has ever had a problem.

Just to bounce this back up to let all know how my girl is doing.

I plumped for surgery in the end, Rosie had 'extracapsular repair' done on Wednesday just passed. My vet suggested that because of her age any other type of op would be too much and her bones may not heal as well, but he felt that because she is still active some surgery would benefit her.

She's been very good since being home and is happy to be bed bound with only a lead walk for toilet breaks.

We had our first post op check this eveing and she did need some Fuciderm for her inner thigh and under belly, she's licking like mad and making it red and sore, it's where the fur is growing back and it itches her.

We have another post op in 3 days and that's when my vet talks me through the rehab, my vets' work in conjunction with a local hydrotherapy pool so I reckon in a month or so Rosie will be in her seventh heaven ie water.

So far I'm generally pleased although I must admit it is upsetting to see a Collie being held back by a wonky leg.