Now I know what I mean when I use the terms in the title but what do you mean, just what is the difference between a Puppy Farmer and a Commercial Breeder.

And of those who breed occasional litters in their own home what makes one person a Back Yard Breeder and another good breeder?

Is anyone who breeds in kennels automatically a Puppy Farmer or a Commercial Breeder?

Are those who breed cross breeds and mongrels always Puppy Farmers?

It has been suggested elsewhere on this forum that anyone breeding more than one litter a year is a Puppy Farmer, do you agree?

Personally I do not think you can draw a clear line, just as with the DDA you have to take each incident or breeding and decide on if this particular litter has been produced with the sort of care and attention you think is required.

Rather than label breeders should we not be looking at the purchasers? After all without the puppy buyer there would be no breeder so perhaps we should have some labels for the puppy purchaser.

How about a W.O.N (want one now) or J.A.P (just a pet) for puppy buyers. I was looking for W.H.A.H.P (want healthy and happy pet) with my recent litter.

I think that what they 'do' is far more important than what they are called.  As you point out, there are enough exceptions to every rule to make judging them by title alone problematic.

It's far more useful to be able to describe what a puppy buyer should be able to expect from a breeder, what to look for, what to avoid, and where they might start to look for one of these special people.  I can think of several people of my acquaintance who've had to learn by their mistakes - it's a shame that good advice isn't easier to find and that some puppy buyers are in too much of a hurry to be willing to listen.  There is definitely an  'I want it now' type of puppy buyer!

> just what is the difference between a Puppy Farmer and a Commercial Breeder.

In my eyes a Puppy Farmer churns then out by breeding a bitch on each season, no regards of quality or health - no health tests done and just from what is seen on TV many are kept in squalid conditions, but may not always be the case. Stay away, well away.

A commercial breeder may do health tests and may care for what they are breeding, but you have to question why they are breeding, more so probably to make money. They will always seem to have a litter on the go and it's like they are catering for the pet market and to line their pockets with money. They may or may not breed from a bitch on every season, but a bit more canny - you may even find then part of a breed club as they conform to the requirements, just they churn out many litters a year...

> makes one person a Back Yard Breeder and another good breeder?

To me a good breeder will be looking into a mating making sure the pedigrees match up, they will have done the health tests and be looking to improve the breed and in essence wanting a pup for themselves to improve their lines. Whether there is a pup in the litter that is of the right quality is another matter. But they are looking for a happy healthy litter and researched in to what they are doing. They care about where the pups go, and are willing to take them back at any time during the life of the dog.

BYB - they are there to make money, little regard to what they are breeding, doubtful that they have done health tests, many use endorsed pets and use the dog down the road for the mating. They feel that their bitch should have a litter and would so like 'an ickle puppy from my favourite girl'. To me on par with a puppy farmer on a small scale.

> Are those who breed cross breeds and mongrels always Puppy Farmers?

More often than not they are there to make money, how many people who cross breed health test and are also proven in their working field? We've had someone on here recently post about their cross breed gundog and said that health tests have been done and proven in the working field. Now, much as i'm not a fan of crossing they have done it in a responsible way and I can't see that we are ever going to stop crosses, but to do it in the right way and attempt to keep them healthy is all that can be done.

I think suejaw has hit the nail on the head and is pretty much what I would have said, I don't think the classification is down to weather the dog is pedigree or not but rather down to how its being done. The top breeder in our breed had their last litter 2ish years ago and is to my knowledge still top, it isn't quantity but quality that counts, weather it be in the field/ ring or other.

I would say a puppy farmer is the person who has a bitch or bitches, usually quite a few, that they breed every season and keep in squalid conditions. One of my new grooming clients seems to have quite a few different breeds that they breed either as a purebred or sometimes with crosses from what I gather, but the dogs I have had in for grooming are of superb temperament and top condition and are immaculately brushed, not easy with some of the breeds she has, so I would I suppose class her as a backyard breeder, which to me (only my own private classification) is someone that takes care of their dogs, better than some 'good' show breeders I know, but nonetheless seems to have more breeds and crosses than perhaps advisable. Tricky one....

My thoughts are.

A good breeder.  Someone who loves and knows their breed. Relevant health checks & more, does lots & lots of research, will put the health of their dogs before looks and breeds for themselves with waiting lists.

BYB.  Has an interest but not necessarily much knowledge in the breed, probably more concerned in what they can get for their puppies. Basic health checks. Not interested in more due to the costs. Dogs probably kept outside all of the time and not included as part of the family. Exercise & socialisation not high on the list. Probably advertised as, puppies have been wormed!

Commercial breeder. Probably has a number of dogs kennelled, livestock, no family if little interaction. Commercial, sums it up, it's a business.

Puppy Farmer/Battery Farmer. If a farmer kept their stock in similar conditions they would be prosecuted. No concern for the dogs or puppies,  no health checks, more like a factory in churning them out,  squallor,  basic food and water not much imput beyond that. Bitches having litters as often as possible. Pups transported in crates.

I don't have any problems with dogs being kept outside in the right conditions, as long as they are part of the family, infact I should think that many would be healthier than having to live in our over heated homes.

I also think that choosing a pup is one of the hardest decisions to make, and it is only when perhaps things go wrong that others within the breed will give you an honest answer.

> Are those who breed cross breeds and mongrels always Puppy Farmers?
>

Had to reply to this one Nova!  :-)

If that is the case, then I am a puppy farmer - even though all my dogs live in the house, and most are neutered.

I have two small breeds.  I was slated on here when one of my larger girls (who is an utter tart), bent down to allow one of my boys mate her.  Only he is not the same breed.  She had just come home from the vet after I had her checked out because of an odd season.  Vet said she was perfectly healthy, and there was no problem.

I was almost hung drawn and quartered on here for letting the pregnancy go ahead.  I wasn't prepared to argue over my decision, so most folk thought that I couldn't be bothered to get the injection.  I never did reply to the criticism, I didn't feel that I had to justify myself to anyone.  But the truth was, the vet told me the injection was pointless, as she couldn't be pregnant from a mating on day 28.

Yeah right!  But I have no regrets.  She was a fit and healthy 3 year old bitch, and had a perfectly normal pregnancy.  I vetted people just as rigourously as I would for a KC purebred puppy.  And I turned down people that didn't deserve one of my well reared pups, just the same as most of us do.

I would hope that doesn't make me a puppy farmer.  Although I don't think puppy farmers keep neutered dogs that they love the same as the rest.

These are American sites so not 100 % relevant to us here, but good all the same:
http://www.shilohshepherds.com/puppyBreeders/breederMatrixv4.htm
http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/breedercomparison.htm

I was almost hung drawn and quartered on here for letting the pregnancy go ahead.  I wasn't prepared to argue over my decision, so most folk thought that I couldn't be bothered to get the injection.

My first litter was an accidental crossbreed litter. No Alizin then and I was terrified by all the stories I heard/read of injected bitches; pyometra developing, deformed puppies born etc. So my husband and I discussed what to do (including with the vet) and decided we would have the litter. I was SO scared when I had to tell my bitch's breeder, but she was utterly brilliant. She understood it was a genuine accident and she understood why I allowed the litter to be born. She said she'd do the same as when she injected a bitch of hers she did not have normal seasons again for 2 years. She was there for me all the way with help and advice, and she even helped me find buyers for the pups. The pups, being such an unusual cross (at least when they were born, since then people have started to deliberately crossbreed Malinois willy nilly :( ) became very wellknown within the breed as I often had the two I kept with me at shows and not one single person had something bad to say to me. Guess I got really lucky.

This year I had an accidental mating again when one of my bitches broke down a wooden/wire kennel door and got out when in season and mated with her own son. She was injected with Alizin and she was fine -in fact she is currently pregnant with a planned litter. And we've now got metal kennel panels for that kennel so in season bitches can safely be separated from the male dogs......(We kennel the bitches when in season, normally they live indoors.) We can all make mistakes.

Only one of my dogs has come from parents who have been hip scored. All have come from eye tested parents as they are ISDS registered.

All my dogs are "pedigree" and have ranged in price from £40 to £180

All of my dogs have come from being reared in outdoor kennels. All of my dogs parents were kept in outdoor kennels.

None of my dogs had a great deal of human contact as puppies - humans brought food and fresh water and empty milk cartons for them to play with.

They were not from puppy farms or BYB - they were from shepherds who know the dogs lines inside and out. Who have chosen a stud based on working ability.

Do I have unhealthy dogs who cannot socialise with other humans or dogs due to those limitations in early life? Well, I have one dog with epilepsy for which no test is available. Otherwise, I have healthy dogs who love people.

I am sure some here will be horrified and call such breeding as BYB or worse. However, you would be hard pushed to find a shepherd who carries out hip scoring and rears a litter indoors.

> I am sure some here will be horrified and call such breeding as BYB or worse. However, you would be hard pushed to find a shepherd who carries out hip scoring and rears a litter indoors.

As many here know I run eye testing sessions three times a year, every summer for years and years I have had a lot of shepherds bring their ISDS collies for testing. They are not wealthy folk but with the cost of the eye test and now micro-chipping costs to add to that none turned up at all this year. I asked them why and they said they simply could not afford it as the costs were too much. They have come to eye testing for as long as I have been running the testing. I suggested they do one dog at each testing so they could spread the costs of the test and getting their dogs micro-chipped, but they did not come and none are booked in for the eye testing session I have on the 21st of this month.

Polly how many dogs doe the average shepherd have? Microchipping is cheap if the right place is found. The Dogs Trust have done them at £10 a dog and most vets will do discount on high numbers. I'm looking to go on a chipping course which is £100, from there I can see how much it costs to have done and how much profit is made..
In this day and age isn't chipping a good idea? Not sure how this is really raising costs unless we are talking that they have 10 plus dogs to have done.. But even then the pro's out weigh the cons.. Hey ho.. You can but try eh?

> a Back Yard Breeder

I'm taking it back now about the lady who is doing the cross breed mating. I've been passed some links of other dog forums she has posted on and she clearly hasn't done the breed health tests, was advised not to mate from this bitch by the vet(had bad phantoms) and from posting on here apparently health tests have been done and is now a working dog...
BAH!!!

> Microchipping is cheap if the right place is found.

My vet charges £28 for chipping alone.

At vets it is expensive, unless on the chipping month, which is often £10 but that I think is around June.

Just checked the DT pages and by contacting your local branch they can do it at reduced costs..