http://www.puppylovecampaigns.org/index.shtml

Interesting reading for anyone thinking of buying a puppy, especially in the run up to Christmas.  So sad :(

When I get home i'm going to add the link to my FB page too, just seen you update yours..
so a BIG BUMP to the top again for this... I know we are all singing the same hymn sheet here, but maybe spread the words on fb, twitter... Hey how about someone tweet this page? I'm not a member... Email out to people..

Just read it too - Mmmmh at the list??

All done and up on FB :-)

I'm on Twitter so will tweet the link later today & add it to my FB too - anything that helps to spread the word.

I know someone who has recently bought a small 'designer' xbreed puppy - I suspect from a puppy farm (or pet shop), she decided one day she wanted a pup & came home with one a couple of days later :-( Despite my advice when she first mentioned she wanted one she just bought the poor little mite on a whim. Thankfully she is the kind of person who will care for it well, she's just one of those 'instant gratification' types.

Claire

I know the Puppy Love group. They are also very against pedigree dog breeders and the Kennel Club. I do admire their campaign against the Dogs R Us shops in Manchester and Leeds as as they are regularly protesting outside these shops. If only they would do it at Harrods we might see more notice taken of their campaigns, since a protest outside Harrods is always going to get more notice that a protest in Manchester or Leeds. Our Dogs members of staff including Vince Hogan have been on the protests out these shops too as we really do think it is time something was done about dog dealers and puppy farmers.

> They are also very against pedigree dog breeders and the Kennel Club.

This is what I can't get, the way all breeders are tarred with the same brush as puppy farmers and casual and other commercial breeders.

This is what I can't get, the way all breeders are tarred with the same brush as puppy farmers and casual and other commercial breeders.

That seems to cover all breeders perhaps what they really want is for the domestic dog to die out. Typical muddled thinking of those persuaded to jump on someone else's bandwagon.

If someone is quietly enjoying their hobby or pastime there will be a group against it, does seem there are those who have hobbies  and those who's hobby is to be against everyone else's, does not seem to matter what it is you can bet you will be offending someone.

Ban Puppy Farms have been promoting this link on Twitter, they've also been promoting a campaign to ban all advertising of puppies for sale on Twitter. Put in pups for sale and there is a horrible number coming up, all around the world, virtually all from free ads. However, just as a matter of note, included in that listing are also Champdogs advertisements. Yikes.

I have supported Ban Puppy Farm's request for a halt to advertsing pups, and other animals on Twitter. I'm amazed that Champdogs links their litters for sale on Twitter. Don't know how it works and not sure I want to know how it works.

quote from Polly I know the Puppy Love group. They are also very against pedigree dog breeders and the Kennel Club.unquote.


Hi Polly Puppylovecampaigns here, I hope you don't mind if I set the record straight. We are not against pedigree dog breeders, in fact we have some very good pedigree dog breeders supporting our campaign. These are breeders who health test and their dogs live in the home as part of family not outside in kennel block. Thats our idea of a good breeder, whats your's?

What we are against is the KC registering puppy farmers and some ABS breeders who are no better than pup farmers. Please don't tell me they have no choice because they do, they could if they wished scrap the KC reg and go with properly policed ABS breeders. And just let me say we have seen plenty of disgusting puppy farms who use KC affix for credibility just as we have seen ABS breeders do the same.

While the KC greedily take money from puppy farmers they cannot spout about puppy farming without sounding hypocritical.

Who's definition of a Puppy Farmer are the KC supposed to work to, they will register puppies that are bred from registered parents and within the age restraints they, the KC, do not say that they will be doing anything but keep a record of a puppies background it is up to the purchaser to visit the breeder and make their own mind up, it is not the KC that inspect breeding kennels it is local councils and prospective purchasers.

Did Professor Bateson say anyone who breeds more than 2 litters per year should be classified as pup farmer, or commercial breeder?

Exactly right the KC do not profess to do anymore that register progeny of any two KC reg dogs, therefore what is the point, its no better than Dog Lovers registration is it.  Yes the public should check breeders out carefully but we all know there are many underhanded ways of fooling joe public. The public are led to believe KC reg means something when in fact it does not.  

I forgot to say regarding ABS breeders, how can you accredit a person you have never met, who's dogs you have not seen and who's premises you have not inspected ?

Did Professor Bateson say anyone who breeds more than 2 litters per year should be classified as pup farmer, or commercial breeder?


He may well have done but that is the opinion of one person and most certainly would not be mine, it happens you may not breed for a while and then produce 2 or more in a year, that in its self does not equal anything at all. Are we to judge a puppy farm by the number of litters rather than the quality of the production.

The amount of weight you give to anything is relative to your ideas and research, according to your way of thinking things would be better as a free for all, I can not agree and for me any attempt at improvement and control is better than none and should be supported not criticised.

It maybe the opinion of one person but he was asked by top people to give a report which he did to the best of his ability after months of study of material not always available to the general public.

Why does anyone need to breed more than two litters per year when the dog population has hit crisis point and dogs are being killed in their thousands?  Would it be for money, if so according to Bateson  you are a pup farmer/commercial breeder.

How do you mean free for all, where did I say that?  I am saying the people who make money from registering puppy farm dogs should be doing more than they are to gain control of rogue breeders. If they cannot do that then they may as well give up,they will accredit anyone so how is that different from normal registration. How can we support the KC when they have no idea who they are giving accreditation to and have to be pushed into a corner before they deal with any complaints.      

So very sad. Some even have a kc affix??!!

Are you now saying that there is no difference between a Puppy Farm and a Commercial Breeder and someone who breeds more that two litters in one year?

Perhaps you should tell us what exactly, in your mind, a Puppy Farmer is and what you consider a responsible breeder. It is all to easy to use titles and emotive phrases but what exactly do you mean.

Perhaps you could tell us what you think the difference is, then I will tell you if our findings support your thoughts ? 

Your the one applying labels to breeders you give me the definitions you apply, that way I may understand your point of view.

>What we are against is the KC registering puppy farmers and some ABS breeders who are no better than pup farmers.

Please could you provide a link to your organisation's official definition of a puppy farmer, because I wasn't aware there was one; that it's purely subjective.

We would agree with Prof Bateson, he had so much help making his decision and put much thought into it.  We speak as we find ....can you pick out the KC reg breeders from any of these videos ? they are there but no prizes for answers as they all look the same. 

http://www.puppylovecampaigns.org/investigations.shtml  

>KC reg breeders

The KC doesn't register breeders, it registers dogs. There are Accredited Breeders, but that's not the same as being a 'registered breeder'.

My personal subjective opinion, which is just as valid as Professor Bateson's, is that the law defining when a breeder must be licenced by the council is pretty much on the nail of defining a puppy farmer.

The KC doesn't register breeders, it registers dogs

And therein lies the problem, DLR registers dogs to make money out of worthless bits of paper just like KC.

There are Accredited Breeders, but that's not the same as being a 'registered breeder

Really?

Could you let me have your definitions of Puppy Farmers, Commercial Breeders and why someone who breeds more than one litter a year is classified as one or the other? When you have time, thanks.

> DLR registers dogs to make money out of worthless bits of paper

Take care - if you say anything against the DLR on the net they threaten legal action.

Two litters of Great Danes (could be 20 pups, is rather different than 2 litters of Poms with maybe two pups a litter. 

Would that be two litters per breed (you often have couples or families or even single breeders who have two or more breeds.

I don't think any average good breeder who bred within the non commercial limits (less than 5 litters in any 12 months).  A pet owner with oen bitch beign bred from every season is far worse than soemoen who breeds as part of theri shwoign ro workign hobby from more than two bitches in perhaps two breeds, with no bitch having more than 2 - 4 litters in her life.

How could the first really add to overpopulation, especially if they take full responsibility for those puppies if they require re-homing.  It is the casual breeder of the one off accidental/pin money litter that statistically produces most of the rescue dogs.

When and Irish puppy farm can have several hundred bitches producing pups.

A breeder of the kind most of us rub shoulders with would not produce that number of puppies in a lifetime of breeding.

As has been said Licenses are the Local authorities job and they should refuse them in more cases.

> There are Accredited Breeders, but that's not the same as being a 'registered breeder
>
> Really?

I have joined the KC ABS, even though I dragged my heels as initially my standards were well above the minimum requirements.

I show and breed as part of a serious hobby, with averaging a litter a year, of carefully bred and reared puppies to progress my aims wihin my hobby.

Anyone breedign 5 litters or more in a 12 months shoudl be registered as a s breeder with their LA. 

Still no explanation, I am disappointed, perhaps you go to bed early or have gone out and today you will let us know your definition of:
Puppy Farms
Commercial Breeders
and even more difficulty to comprehend why those who breed more than two litters in a year are considered to be Puppy Farmers.

I am very interested in the last as I have been on a list for a puppy and have been for some time but I do know that this breeder is going to have (with luck) two litters next year. Is the breeder a puppy farmer? Should I cancel my long standing order?

What a thread! I'm very interested in the definitions as well Nova, lets hope for some clarification today.

Still no explanation, I am disappointed, perhaps you go to bed early or have gone out and today you will let us know your definition of:
Puppy Farms
Commercial Breeders

I have no intention of explaining to anyone I quoted Bateson take it up with him.  I am busy chasing puppy farmers be they KC registered  ABS or byb .

>I have no intention of explaining to anyone

We gave you our thoughts - it's only fair for you to treat us with the same courtesy. You can't expect support if you don't or can't explain why you set the parameters you do.

I have no intention of explaining to anyone I quoted Bateson take it up with him.

Not a lot of point your coming on here to express an opinion it you don't have one, I was talking to you and your pressure group not Bateson or are you saying you have no opinion but follow what ever Bateson says without any personal filter or ideas.

I am busy chasing puppy farmers be they KC registered  ABS or byb

And how do you recognise them when you find them as you seem unable to tell me what it is that makes a puppy farmer how do you deal with them?

Not a lot of point your coming on here to express an opinion it you don't have one, I was talking to you and your pressure group not Bateson or are you saying you have no opinion but follow what ever Bateson says without any personal filter or ideas.

I came on here in response to Polly and to make it clear why we did not support KC and that we do have support from and know many good breeders.   You wouldn't like my opinions so I have no intention of airing them.  bye now 

> make it clear why we did not support KC and that we do have support from and know many good breeders. 

but you haven't made it clear, and who are the good breeders in your book, as you seem to think that many of what others think of as good breeders are not.?

Ok then please do not generalise tell us what you mean by Puppy farmers, commercial breeders and now I see you have added BYB and you seem to be suggesting that anyone breeding two litters in a year is a PF so explain yourself.

How can we give credence to what you are saying if your are just generalising it reminds me of the DDA blame the breed and not the deed you are blaming breeders without explaining what your generalising means.

As you are unable to tell us what you mean by these general terms then tell me what you consider a good breeder, I am at a total loss to see what good you think you can do when you seem unable to give any explanation as to what you mean by the generalisations you are using, they mean nothing to us nor any one else without explanation.

I cannot speak for or on behalf of puppylovecampaigns, I can only speak from my own standpoint of campaigning against puppy farming, through my own web site.

Firstly, there is no legal definition of the word puppy farm or puppy farming.  An explanation is given here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppy_mill
and although it is an American site the the information given is similiar to here.

I believe that puppy farm/puppy farming becomes a personal intepretation of what one would refer to as a puppy farmer/farm. This of course does make it difficult for some people to understand as perhaps they fear if they are involved in dog breeding (licensed or not) they are being slotted into the category of being a puppy farmer if they have a number of dogs used for breeding.  This may or maynot be the case depending upon a number of factors relating to their dog breeding practices and who they sell their puppies to.

When I think of puppy farmers/puppy farms, I know they can be licensed or unlicensed, they can have a number of dogs to a great number of dogs of various breeds and sizes.  The owners of the dogs generally breed commercially sell their puppies to dealers and pet shops or advertise in the free ads or web sites. They accomodate their dogs in large agriculture buildings or redundant farm sheds and barns, often poor to very basic conditions.  Breeders do not health screen any of their breeding dogs, vaccination is not routine, animal husbandry is very basic, puppies are bred from sometimes unhealthy parents, lack socialization, when sold are most sold by the litter they get mixed with other litters by the dealer, vaccination cannot always be verified by paperwork, paperwork can some times be checked but not always dependent on who the breeder has used to register the litters. These are just some points there are many more.

The above is the situation for a large majority of breeders in Carmarthenshire, who are the largest suppliers of puppies to dealers and pet shops in the UK. The situation for puppies arriving from Eire and also N Ireland is not any different to those sold by dealers and pet shops from Wales.

For the purchaser to find a good breeder is not easy but there are suggested routes and guidelines to take that are not fool proof but are certainly far better than going down the route outlined here.  Firstly do your home work and research, know what is important in the breed of your choice to look for and has screening been undertaken, speak and visit the breeder be comfortable that you have seen and asked everything and have seen the screening certificates ad everything else that is required before deciding, if you are not comfortable with the answers that you  were given or the premises then for goodness sake walk away.  Do not think that because you have been shown a few dogs and one litter that is all the person owns. They may not - can always check with their Council as to how many they are licensed for before going, if too many then be aware that they maynot be all that they seem. The perfect place for a breeding bitch to have her puppies is indoors surrounded the family some of the time, not in a concrete barn using a concrete floor as whelping pen. Yes it does happen.            

> Hi Polly Puppylovecampaigns here, I hope you don't mind if I set the record straight. We are not against pedigree dog breeders, in fact we have some very good pedigree dog breeders supporting our campaign. These are breeders who health test and their dogs live in the home as part of family not outside in kennel block. Thats our idea of a good breeder, whats your's?

I got the impression that you were against all pedigree dog breeders by reading some of the comments on your forum made by your members. I realise like many anti puppy farming campaigners you definitely do not like the KC, to the point that Puppy Love pulled out of the first Pups in the Park day in Brighton because the KC were attending. I do think you do a lot of good as when you protested outside the shops in Manchester and Leeds.

I do wonder if you were all to work together good breeders, the KC and groups like yours whether more would get done sooner to end puppy farming for good. I sometimes think that when groups get involved in a campaign they only see things the way they think they ought to be and will not work with like minded groups. Just as Puppy Love gave information to the Bateson report so did many other groups including the KC, so if everyone could have input to the Bateson enquiry why can't they put differences aside and work to eliminate puppy farming?

I know everyone here would like to see puppy farming stopped, but even if we stop it here how can we stop dog dealers bringing in farmed puppies from other countries? I know that goes on and WAG have campaigned against it tirelessly. Often puppies in the hands of dog dealers get less care in transportation that cattle get, yet the same transport laws apply to puppies and cattle. WAG were always holding protests at the P & O ferry terminals as they knew a lot of farmed puppies from Southern Ireland came over on the ferries. If I was stupid enough to buy a puppy from a shop how would I know whether it was from a commercial operation or if it had been transported many miles by a dog dealer?

Some of our members work in rescue and pick up the mess made by breeders so I hope you would understand some of their harsher comments.

As I said in my very first post if anyone cared to read it we work with good breeders, in fact sometimes they tip us off to the bad breeders.

Yes PL pulled out of the Pups in the park in Brighton because the KC were using it to push the AB scheme shamelessly, how on earth in all conscience could we attend when we have investigated ABS members who are glorified puppy farmers?  Some accredited breeders have large amounts of dogs, five different breeds  in one case. We advise people not to buy from people who advertise multi breeds.

I wonder if we all worked together things might change quicker too, I  wonder if when people complain to the KC about a pup they have bought that has died or been very ill that the KC might reprimand the breeder in some way or insist they stop breeding from dogs with genetic defects things might change for the better. We try to educate the public with the truth....visit the site read the stories page, its not only pet shops that sell sick dogs.  When the KC clean up their act we would be happy to tell everyone to buy from an accredited breeder who does ALL the health tests possible and keeps their dogs indoors as part of a happy family. Believe me when I say we would shout it from the rooftops but we know different at the moment and will not be part of a scam.  

When we have stopped puppy farming in our own country we can move on and try to get things changed re imported dogs but lets clean up our own back yard first shall we.   

> Some of our members work in rescue and pick up the mess made by breeders so I hope you would understand some of their harsher comments.
>

and so do many breeders, work with rescue, contribute to rescue funds, and of course rescue any of their own breeding as a matter of course so that they do not enter the rescue system, often permanently identify puppies so should they slip through the net and get into rescue they can be traced, sometimes they can't get them out of rescue..

These are breeders, those who do not care what happens after sale are puppy producers, and good breeders are sick to death of being tarred with the same brush, even breeders who actually work in rescue are castigated for daring to breed.

Well said brainless.

and so do many breeders, work with rescue, contribute to rescue funds, and of course rescue any of their own breeding as a matter of course so that they do not enter the rescue system, often permanently identify puppies so should they slip through the net and get into rescue they can be traced, sometimes they can't get them out of rescue..

These are breeders, those who do not care what happens after sale are puppy producers, and good breeders are sick to death of being tarred with the same brush, even breeders who actually work in rescue are castigated for daring to breed

Of course some breeders rescue any of their own and so they should!  why should someone else do it? It may interest you to know KC reg dogs end up in rescue and AB too.Every breeder should permanently identify their dogs, this is something we have asked for for years. Any good  breeder doesn't need to be prodded to identify dogs.  If good breeders are sick of being tarred with the same brush why don't they try do something about it. 

> Any good  breeder doesn't need to be prodded to identify dogs.  If good breeders are sick of being tarred with the same brush why don't they try do something about it. 

They do.  Have done for years since first litter.

>As I said in my very first post if anyone cared to read it we work with good breeders, in fact sometimes they tip us off to the bad breeders.

Seeing as how you won't tell us your definition of a puppy farmer and why you've arrived at that definition, perhaps you can tell us what makes a good breeder; the sort you work with?

>If good breeders are sick of being tarred with the same brush why don't they try do something about it. 

They do. However programmes like PDE refuse to acknowledge or publicise the efforts good breeders put in to do their very best to ensure their puppies are sound, healthy animals, setting back the cause by decades. Even your organisation does the tarring, by not working alongside the KC, who after all are responsible, along with the BVA, for running so many of the health schemes.

Really fed up with saying this ...go back and read my posts, I state what we think is a good breeder.

Please don't blame us for faults within the KC as I have said before when they get it right we will only be too happy to work with them. Its ludicrous to think an anti puppy farm campaign group should work with an organization that takes money from puppy farmers.

> I wonder if we all worked together things might change quicker too

A couple of points about comments you have made re the KC..

Did you know the KC and BVA insist all dogs taking part in any health testing are permanently identified by micro-chip or tattoo?
The KC insists all ABS dogs are permanently identified?
The KC were looking for people to 'police' the ABS, did any of your members apply?

Until in law what constitutes a puppy farmer from a good breeder can be identified there is little anyone including the KC can do. It needs to be identified and changed by law as dogs are not considered to be anything other than goods to be bought and sold, therefore with out a legal definition and a law supporting the banning of this TRADE it will carry on because if the KC, Puppy Love and all the other organisations stopped it they would be doing so against the law which allows free trade.

> I  wonder if when people complain to the KC about a pup they have bought that has died or been very ill that the KC might reprimand the breeder in some way or insist they stop breeding from dogs with genetic defects things might change for the better.

Regarding genetic faults some things are a lot harder to identify and if incorrectly identified can have far reaching effects on a breed. For example two DNA clear dogs mated together should produce a litter totally clear of the problem tested for, but recently a litter from a mating like this was identified as all being carriers. On the strength of the results of this DNA test a lot of breeders with drew their stud dogs from stud and bitches were re-homed or spayed. The result of health testing failures like this could have devastating effects on a breed. It is not as straight forward as some folk believe.

With regard to rescue I have rescued dogs one came from a puppy farm, I reported the dead puppies and starving dogs there to a certain well known animal rescue who would not even come out of their offices to look at the dog I managed to get. Eventually they asked "So what do you want to do with this dog? I suppose you want to dump it on us then?" I drove home so angry I do not even recall the journey! My son-in-law a vet had taken pictures and written out a report and was prepared to go to court if the animal charity had bothered to go to this place. When I got home I rang the KC even though the puppy was not registered with them. I asked them if they could offer any advice and they were very helpful they advised me that this 'puppy producer' (I would not dignify him with the term breeder), should be reported to the police as they have a duty to investigate, so that is what I did and they went down to this place and it did subsequently close.

Yes I did know dogs taking part in health test were permanently identified, that would be expected wouldn't it. Do the KC check that ALL ABS dogs are identified, think carefully before you answer that as we know different.

Did the KC bother to ask any anti pup farm campaigners to help police ABS breeders as this is the first I have heard of it.I would have thought campaigners would have been first port of call? We have members who would be only too happy to do that job.

The argument about what defines a pup farmer and changing the law will go on forever, in the meantime the KC could take steps to stop taking money from huge commercial breeders who have no care for the dogs whatsoever.  The KC is a PRIVATE members club, they can make their own rules anytime they want to. Some genetic faults maybe harder harder to identify but an ABS breeder committing fraud is a lot easier but one of our member spent lots of time trying to get said breeder removed from the list and it was only when he threatened media coverage action was taken. 

Yes RSPCA leave a lot to be desired of that there is no doubt and I will not argue with that.

>go back and read my posts, I state what we think is a good breeder.

I must be being very dim, because I can't find it. As far as I can see you've only said that puppy farmers produce two litter per year - nothing to describe good breeders, other than "These are breeders who health test and their dogs live in the home as part of family not outside in kennel block. Thats our idea of a good breeder, whats your's?" That of course is pretty much meaningless, because it mentions nothing about temperament, or ability to do the job the breed was designed for, or closeness to the breed standard, or maintaining a lifelong interest in the welfare of the puppies they produce, or indeed the living standards within the home! There's far more to being a 'good breeder' than what you've mentioned so far.

You said " Its ludicrous to think an anti puppy farm campaign group should work with an organization that takes money from puppy farmers." How then can you follow this up with "Did the KC bother to ask any anti pup farm campaigners to help police ABS breeders as this is the first I have heard of it.I would have thought campaigners would have been first port of call? We have members who would be only too happy to do that job." Those two statements are totally at odds with each other.

Just go back to my first post,read slowly its in there.  Yes my two statements do seem at odds, I was trying  - not very well- to show that the KC do not wish to work with us. We have tried in the past and as recent as last week but when we ask questions we are met with brick wall.

I am sure some of our members would help police the scheme, that would not be helping KC as much as helping dogs which is what we are about would be be accepted ...its doubtful,we may ask and let you know.  Of course we would have a duty to the public to let them know what we find too:-)

Some VERY health focused, ethical breeders have now joined the KC ABS in an attempt to raise the bar and work from within.

Please be careful not to totally disparage our efforts and imply that we are now all touched by a stigma!

>Some VERY health focused, ethical breeders have now joined the KC ABS in an attempt to raise the bar and work from within.

Things are improved quicker from within - that's the sensible, grown-up way to do things, not railing from the outside.

Some VERY health focused, ethical breeders have now joined the KC ABS in an attempt to raise the bar and work from within.

Please be careful not to totally disparage our efforts and imply that we are now all touched by a stigma!

Thats good news, good luck the bar needs raising.