Hi guys

I havent been on for a while with now working for myself and doing loads of hours so now iv finally come back to this great forum.....I do hope now you can help me !!!!

AFter losing my 2 last newfies to 'Bloat' in the last 10 years, now I have my 3rd newfy and he is now 2 years and 5 months and his name is 'Ralph' and i love him to bits - im still working on him training him - slowly!  

I have been reading up on the prevention of 'Bloat' and i have been reading about 'Gastropexy' to cut down on the risk to deep chested dogs.  I had him castrated 3 months ago and its made a great difference in his behaviour but iv read that this procedure should have taken place during neutering.  Now I want this done as I dont want to lose my dog and I have search on the cost but to now avail!  (i will check with the vet when i get chance)  but can anyone tell me, have they had this done to their dog(s)??

Can you tell me if you have, do you think it has made a difference?  

One one site, its says to raise the water and feeding bowls to help prevent this, then, on another site, it said by raising water and feeding bowls it can increase the risk of bloat.

I can honestly say that I just dont know what to believe.  But this 'Gastropexy' looks like the right thing to do.  Can you please help me guys on this, I dont want to lose Ralph, my kiddies love him and I do so much, he is so part of our family but when I have mentioned this to various 'newfy' people, I get different answers.  Iv spent hours on the net researching 'Bloat' and how to prevent it, I know you cant but I just want to reduce the risk.  I also feed my dog 'james wellbelovered' dry food with a bit of water and mixed in with a table spoon of tuna or moist dog food, as iv been told dry food can cause this.

oh gawd...sorry to go on but there is so much info on this i just dont know what to believe!!!!!  but this procedure seems good, can you please comment or tell me more please guys on this???

kindest regards to you and thankyou so much for reading my plea!

debi
xx

I forgot to mention, when I got him neutered, I didnt know about this procedure, that I could have had done then!  thats why now (after 3 months of him being done) I want him done now, I dont know the cost but ill do anything to prevent this awful thing happening to my beautiful boy.

thanx again guys

debi
xxx

One of my boys had a Gastropexy performed after suffering a Gastric Torsion. It was done to prevent another torsion. I have heard of a number of people mainly in the US talking of having this procedure done as a preventative. Not sure if it is offered in the UK and I am really not sure if I would want to subject an otherwise healthy dog to major surgery just as a preventative. I would be interested to see what others think.

thanx crinklenut, i am desperate not have this happen again, I think it was a US site i was on earlier, but i am going to phone the vet tomorrow to see if this can be done.  When I look in to my lovely boy's eyes, i just cant bear this happening to him, as with my last 2 when it happened to them, it took me 2 years to get over it each time and the pain they must have gone through.....I would love to hear from anyone that has had this done to their deep chested dogs especially here in the UK! or if anyone know more about it.....

thanx again Crinklenut for responding to my plea

debi
xxx

I believe such a procedure if done when it wasn't necessary would be considered unethical in the UK, and the vet could be struck off.

> I believe such a procedure if done when it wasn't necessary would be considered unethical in the UK, and the vet could be struck off.

It has been offered to one or two people in my breed, but only during neutering that i know of.

i forgot to mention Crinklenut, dont you think it would be a good idea to have this done to my healthy newfy to prevent 'bloat' happening ?

I know he's healthy now but i would like this done to prevent this....I am doing all i can to prevent it now, what with raising his drinking and feeding bowls (even tho iv now read this is not good for them!!!!) feeding him 3 or 4 small meals a day and not feeding him 1/2 hours before/after excersise (walks)

I am really sorry for going on, but i dont want to lose my Ralph to this awful thing.  But if anyone has any better ideas then id love to hear from you!!

many thanx again

debi
xxx

It doesnt STOP bloat, it stops the twist.

> i forgot to mention Crinklenut, dont you think it would be a good idea to have this done to my healthy newfy to prevent 'bloat' happening ?
>
>

I know where you are coming from as a Torsion is horrific and was so scary. Even after the op I did not know if my boy would pull through. As someone else has already mentioned it would not prevent bloat but it does stop the stomach from twisting, but it is major surgery. I have other dogs at home but I would not consider putting them through this as a preventative.

There's a danger it would lead to complacency, and is itself a risky procedure with a risk of death.

In the USA a Gastroplexy is performed on request. You need to explain to your vet your reasons for wanting this procedure performed as it is not available,to my knowledge,on request in this country. Having to have this performed as a result of TORSION requires a much longer recovery period for the dog,than an operation to stitch the stomach to abdominal wall as a preventative measure,in an otherwise healthy animal.In view of this and,taking into consideration your reason for wanting this procedure your vet may well agree.

I have always owned GSD's and until the two I have now, had never used stands for the feed bowls..I was always very aware of the risk of bloat and did everything I could to lessen the risk. However, one of the dogs who is fairly "tall" suffered GDV in July. I had up to this point always fed complete food. The vet told me on three occasions, once on the phone and twice when I went to collect him, that I must not feed cheap supermarket food and must change the diet. I felt insulted and annoyed as I have never fed what I considered to be rubbish. It is a brand used by a number of people on here.  After a considerable amount of time spent reading up on complete foods, I decided that never again would the dogs be fed grain in any form. I now feed raw but have a bag of completely grain free complete, which I give occasionally. The reduction in water consumption has been quite dramatic.  I have no way of knowing whether not using stands had any bearing on the fact that none of the others suffered this,so,as this dog is the biggest I have owned,I have compromised and cut the stands down to half the size.

I am so sorry you lost your other two dogs as a result of GDV. I don't think I will ever recover from the horror of it and am so thankful I still have my dog. The good though,that came as a result of this, is that it made me consider very seriously what I was feeding.  I think you are very brave to run the risk again with the same breed. I do hope all goes well for you this time.

Hi Debi,

You have been very very unlucky with what has happened to your 2 previous Newfs and i'm sorry that you had the heartache of that. Can I ask how old they were at the time they passed on?

From what others have said and what i've read is that there is no actual way to prevent bloat, its something which is very unfortunate. We can do our best and there is a debate as to whether raising food and water bowls helps or not. As you said not feeding one meal a day is also supposed to help.
The one thing i've picked up is leaving at least 1hr min between feeding and exercise, I try to leave longer if possible. I know you mentioned 1/2hr, I personally don't think thats long enough.

I wouldn't be putting a dog through an operation like you mention if the dog is healthy. JG has mentioned about vets and if its ethical, she works in a vets. I can understand why you are looking into it from what you've been through.

I'd look at the food you're feeding your boy, what is he currently fed on?

One of my dogs (LB gundog) had a Gastroplexy after a torsion too about 4 years ago.

It is not 100% chance of stopping it happening again.  They can still bloat, but adhesions holding the stomach to the abdomen wall after surgery to reduce the chance of torsion.  But with age, I think as things go South and lapse (like with us all!), it can still happen.

I too would be very sceptical of having this surgery done to prevent it. 

I too can understand your fears, as we all can, but I think if I asked my Vet to do it, he would refuse, unless it needed doing.

In our breed torsion/bloat is one of the biggest killers and we all live in fear of it.  We just try to do things that try to reduce the chance of it happening (like walking on full stomach etc). 

My dogs are mainly fed on dry food, and they have other stuff mixed in, all are fed on the floor too.  My bitch that had a torsion, was the result of her opening a dumped black bag with food in it, and her eating the contents at a very fast rate, before I got to her to stop her.

So sorry for what happened to your other dogs and having lost a flat coat to bloat I understand your concerns I would still be wary of the gastroplexy althuogh I can see why you are thonking that way I did until I read up on it.
Some vets in the uk do do it as it was suggested for my sisters gsd at one point. Bit odd I felt as the dog had not had a problem
I for lots of reasons now feed raw and maybe thats an option for you , not a preventative as such as bloat can be caused by many things but certainly reduces risk. My gsd dosent even bother with a bowl so a stand would be useless to him e eats on the lawn !!His choice often laying down. He also drinks less than I am used to with dry fed dogs excess water another possible risk , makes sense
My flatti died 5 days after an operation for cancer on her jaw and drinking copious amounts of water on returning home. My fault  should have realisedwhat she was doing and been more clued in never gave bloat a thought She had not eaten for hours had not been excersied but I believe the stress of the op and possibly one of the drugs she was on which can in sensitive dogs give rise to gastric problems contributed to her death

Sorry for the ramble not sure if any of that helps but I would seriously consider raw

I feel that 2 hrs should be the very minimum time between feeding and exercise. My dogs are adult so feed twice a day. I would worry when feeding 3-4 times a day  (unless is a pup) that the dog would be haring about with undigested food still in the stomach. Mine, as with furriefriends, eat the bones in the garden + large pieces of meat. Anything minced goes in the bowls with the occasional raw egg + shell. Let us know what your vet has to say.

Hi guys, thankyou so much for your replies. and i also am so sorry some of you have lost your belovered dogs to this awful, awful condition as i know exactly how you must have bloody felt, I couldn't function i lost so much weight but i had to keep going cos of my job and my 2 little kiddies at the time but god, it was awful at the time..... you must think im mad now wanting this done to my Ralph (my newfy).  Yes i am brave getting this breed again but i can honestly say, I love this breed and my last 2 newfys (Louie and Arthur) they were 5 and 7 when they bloated and died but it took me about 6 years to have another one as i was so upset for a few years over the last 2 and yes, iv took another chance on this dog. 

I thought after 8 years now since my last one, vet procedures improve and when i read about this, I thought, I must have this done to my dog to at least cut the risk down a lot for him as i know he can still bloat but the risk is minimum (i read!) I didnt take into consideration the stress he may be under with this op but again, iv read on the 'Hunt Valley Animal Hospital' in the US it says: 'Gastropexy involves tacking the stomach to the body wall within the abdomen to prevent its ability to twist on itself if the tum does fill with air or food.  This procedure is performed using minimally invasive iaparoscopic techniques.  The benefits of laparoscopic gastropexy include shorter surgery/anesthesia time, small incisions, less pain & shorter recovery/hospital stay'.

[[url=]url=]sorry about that guys, that is what spurned me to get this done you see[/url] most probably, every dog is different the way they deal with surgery but im going to have a word with my vet tomorrow and ill let you know what he says[/url]

I have always fed Ralph his food and water on raised bowls so now ill stop this and leave them on the floor, i just dont know as you read its best to raise the bowls but if you think this is not good then ill put them on the floor. 

I feed Ralph on 'james wellbelovered large kibble dry food' 500gms a day and split this into 3 meals with water and a bit of tuna or dog meat as i mentioned earlier but I had always wanted to feed him on a raw diet but i honestly havent a clue on it.  Even tho iv read loads on it I am still non of the wiser as to what to give my boy!!!!!  as i dont want to over feed him as this is the reason why he's on JW food as i can see exactly how much for his weight i give him (he is 64 kilos) and cos iv had him castrated, he now doesn't need that much food (so iv been told)

I honestly wouldn't know what to give him regards to the raw diet and how much and when, the choice is enoumous and also, some people have said its too much trouble feeding a raw diet so please dont think i am thick, i honestly dont know what to give him, how much to give him and when and / or do you split his food into 2 meals, I cant run the risk of him putting on weight as he's huge now (not with food or lack of excersise) hes just a big boy.

so if anyone who has a newf who is on the raw diet id love to know more about it for him,

again, i am so sorry to drone on everyone and you have all been so kind as to advise me, but i just would love to get things right so he can live a healthy life and i know this condition is always going to be there, i just want the risk to be reduced that's all you see & ill do anything to help him avoid this the best i possibly can.

much kindest regards and ((hugs)) everyone - thankyou

debi
xx

OK  now dont panic about raw its just like feeding you kiddies I will pm you a good site to help and somewhere recently cant find it just now someone post  ideas of amounts.
My 42 ish kg gsd has about 1kg of raw meat a day. I order about 3 months supply at a time because it suits us and get any all types of meat I can find and he likes  included chicken with bone ie carcasses and sainburys basics frozen chicken quarters.
Now this where you feed lkike you children over all they get a balance diet ? Yes? so I just vary each day or two. Some mince onday will be followed by say a chicken carcass to get bone and then maybe some offal on another day. I also  give them tinned pilchards and sardines about once or twice a week with the meat (surf and turf) Keep an eye on his poos as if you dont ! if runny he needs more bone if a bit hard more meat.
If he is abit podgey reduce his food and if thin add some more just like you would for yourself. There are othere things you can add but straight raw meaty bones his good and healthy

thanx furriefriends that is so kind of you.  Do you feed your dog twice a day on this diet?  my friend used to feed her retrievers on raw chicken thighs 6 each 3 in the morning and 3 at tea time, and they way they used to eat it, they looked like a lion tearing at the meat lol....but there were so healthy and no health probs......now tho, there is so much you can feed them, but as i mentioned, its what to give them and how much, you mentioned you feed your gsd 1kg of raw meat a day, is that enough!!! it doesnt sound a lot as i am wondering with Ralph being 65 kilos what on earth do i give him for his weight as he doesnt need that much now (sorry to repeat myself)

if i could get the hang of this, i certainly put him on this for good, but when i mentioned this sometime ago to my breeder, he said why on earth am i thinking of doing this, its too much hassle and he would get all the goodness from the JW dry food - large kibble.  So he was no help, and to be honest, id love to put him on this diet as his poos are like cow pats lol.....and i have to clean it up as my hubby refuses.  I know a lot of customers of mine (i am a dog groomer) who's dogs are on this diet but there'r all small dogs and only eat very small amounts but no one who has a large breed is on this diet so i cant ask them for any info!

as I said, when i looked into this months ago on the net, i couldn't believe there were pages and pages on it and honestly, i gave up as it was just too much to take in and it didnt give me a straight answer, as to what to give my dog and how much for his weight and how to put together meals for him daily with the different meats and bones they were talking about, it was just going into as to how good it is for all dogs so i got fed up.

Ill print off what you said Furrie' and keep what you feed your dog, but do you feed your dog twice a day by splitting this 1kg of raw meat into 2 meals? daft i sound i know but are chicken quaters legs and beasts of chicken? and is the mince you feed him raw and not cooked? and how much mince do you give him?

see how stupid i sound, but if you can email me about the site you mentioned that would be great!  my email address is:  newfydaze@o2.co.uk

I am still thinking about the Gastropexy, ill still have a word with my vets tomorrow and see what she says!  i didnt know most vets wouldn't do this, as in the US they do it there for prevention dont they!

thanx Furrie' for getting back - you and everyone has been a great help to me and hope you can remember that site!!

debi
xx

One of the best websites for finding out about raw feeding is BritBarf. When you join you will be sent a link to a page that explains all about raw feeding and the principles behind it.

I have been feeding a large breed - Golden Retriever- a raw diet for a good few years now and he thrives on it. Raw feeding sounds complicated but once you have understood how it works it is really very easy and takes very little time to prepare. I defrost my dogs food overnight and feed him twice a day - 250g in the morning and 300g in the evening. As every dog is different the amount you feed each day will differ from dog to dog - the amounts shown on a bag of kibble are recommended amounts but each dog will need to be fed the amount that suits him.

As a rough guide you usually start out feeding an adult dog around 2% of it's desired body weight. My dog weighs around 32kg and I feed around 500g a day which is the right amount for him. If they put on a bit of weight you feed less - if they need to put on a bit you feed more. You don't have to worry about getting the balance of foods right on a daily basis - I balance mine over the course of three to four weeks. It takes me around 10 seconds to put the meat/bones in a bowl and put it on the floor for him so probably less time than it would take me to measure out kibble - I no longer weigh everything out because I have been feeding this way  for a fair while and can see how much is needed at a time. I do agility with him so tend to keep him a little on the lean side to help protect his joints and he is very fit and active. He has wonderful pearly white teeth, sweet smelling breath and produces very little waste - definitely no cowpats here :-)

To get it right with raw feeding you do need to do lots of research to begin with so you understand the balance and ratios of food to feed but it is not as complicated as it sounds and I certainly have no regrets about changing the way I feed my dogs.

I have unfortunately experience with both bloat and torsion (the two are not the same).

In short I know of a vet who bred a particular breed and this line was predisposed to developing GDV, she had elective gastropexys done on her dogs.  I personally would not, but would have it done if the dog was under surgery for same.

It does not prevent the bloat (dilation) but does prevent torsion however there are two types so it is worth discussing with your vet.

I have since fed over 10 years raw diet, from floor, and since then (touch wood) no issues.