So what is your expereience and where can we see such good statistics.

> I figured it would cost me about the same to just go take the dog myself (including getting 2 passports for her and a buddy).  At least this way if she doesn't take we get a bit of a holiday out of it rather than nothing to show for it.  Just SOOO many hoops to jump through when talking importing etc it just seemed like so much work.
>

Just my experience, and of course you can't drive to the USA.

In fact the original plan was to go to Norway, but we now have a DNA test for prcd-PRA and our club insist that if a carrier or untested dog is used then all the offspring have to be tested (even though clear to any other status would not produce affected offspring) by the breeder (could add £1000 to costs if a reasonable size litter), unfortunately the Scandinavians aren't using the test.  The dog I was interested was used in the USA and the owner of two of his sons was prepared to DNA test them, the offspring in Norway are in the far North, and there is a language barrier, so the US seemed the best option.

Why does the AI option seem so easy in the USA, and results so much better than ours.

"Why does the AI option seem so easy in the USA, and results so much better than ours".

Because the AKC has freely allowed breeders to use AI by their chosen method for many years. Therefore the inseminators offering this service can get a reasonable return on their time and investment of the specialist equipment required. Plus they are not tied up with red tape as is the case with the KC and registration of AI litters here. So in the USA they have a depth of experience gained over many years in what is a viable business.

I know of some breeders in the USA who have imported very old semen that was not originally frozen in the best of circumtances and obtained quite exceptional and consistent results that would be a mere pipe dream here.

AI in the UK is not a pipe dream it is possible to obtain exactly the same if not better results that those obtained in the USA

Undoubtedly superb AI results have been obtained with the Guide Dogs programme and in the Racing Greyhound world. I would guess that with these situations the inseminator has the bitch under their total care well before the actual insemination is due and so is in control of the blood testing.Also as the size of bitch is known in advance the inseminator is sure to have the correct equipment to suit on every occasion for TCI.

The person inseminating to produce a KC registered litter mostly only actually sees the bitch for the first time when it is presented on the day. The inseminator could be dealing with progesterone testing coming from many different sources, breeds of vastly different construction and semen coming from all over the World frozen to different standards. Just my thoughts. Might these be reasons to explain why there is a much lower conception rate in KC registered litters?

Yep you are spot on dogsbody
I consistently achieve conception rate in the high nineties week in week out because I am in total control of the mating,have the correct equipment and have built up a wealth of experience over a number of years
Unfortunately the people doing the TCI with the show dogs are at a distinct dissadvantage because they may only do maybe 1 per month if they are lucky

So why are these facilities information etc and standards of success not easily accessible to the pedigree dog breeder in the UK.

Any questions re reprodcution specialists and services with any vets I have used are met with blank stares, they all seem intent on the opposite.

I dont know Barbara

I have come to the conclusion that the whole subject of AI within the show dog commumity is hush hush .I have dealt with quite a few show dog customers in the last 12 months with excellent results.

Finding the regulations easily for importing (as that is what we are talking about) from DEFRA would be a start, and a list of people that can do it, those best at transporting/shipping it (most reliable airlines and shipping agents, storage facilities) where does one start if ones vet can't help?

I take your point Barbara I am working on it now

The average UK Vet doesn't even have Canine AI on their radar yet! There are about half a dozen specialsts offering AI and they all have their own websites. The KC have people appointed to advise breeders who are interested in AI, plus a list of specialists available.

> The KC have people appointed to advise breeders who are interested in AI, plus a list of specialists available.

That does surprise me, though the KC website isn't exactly easy to find anything on, except by accident..

> though the KC website isn't exactly easy to find anything on, except by accident..

Truer words were never spoken.  An heaven forbid you DO stumble across something interesting, you'd better copy the link because you will NEVER find it again!

When is your trip to the States happening (approx obviously)?  I hope it goes well for you and is worth it.  There was a dog in the States I desperately wanted to use for my first litter, but as I said in my other post I know my girls won't fly well, so I gave up on the idea and used a British dog who's lines I really liked.  Then spent the next 3 following these lines in Sweden which I love... 

Have just got back from a weekend away to discover all these posts!  Well I have spoken to fit n fertile who were really helpful and the dog is booked in for 2 days before he leaves the country to have semen taken and chilled.  This is presuming she is in season by the time he goes away as we will then know that she will be ready whilst he is away.  Apparently Fit n Fertile have had a lot of success using a 10 day advancing "potion" which means the semen does not have to be frozen if it is to be used within that 10 days.  I'm still keeping fingers crossed that she may hang on until he returns but you know these girls!!

Very well done Zajak, excellent result for putting in all that advance preparation!

"Apparently Fit n Fertile have had a lot of success using a 10 day advancing "potion" "
I understand you have your insemination covered with the KC but I would be interested to know if Fit n Fetile get the resulting puppies from these inseminations KC registered as routine without any problems? Surely this does not sit within the KC's current AI rules as written? Might it be possible the KC are now being more flexible in their approach to AI and this is not generally known by breeders yet?

Thank you dogsbody100!  Fit N Fertile have advised me of a 78% success rate with chilled semen and 74% success rate with frozen semen.  I have received written confirmation from Gary Johnson at the Kennel Club who has been really helpful.  As the rules state the dog must not reside in the country then I suppose its not really going against that, it just depends on how you read it.  If they changed the wording to say must not be resident in the country at the time of mating it might make it a bit clearer for everyone?

She is due in season if she goes like last time (last seasons were end of May and end of October)about the end of December, so thinking January (hope she avoids the Christmas new year period).

Thanks for your reply Zajak. I was actually thinking of this below from the KC Application form to register an AI litter

"The General Committee will not normally accept an application to register an AI litter if the donor male is alive and domiciled in the United Kingdom, with one exception namely that Irish Wolfhounds of 8.5 years or older and domiciled in the UK can be used as donors in AI."

Chilled semen can only come from a live dog so I am surprised there might be a number of inseminations taking place and the resulting puppies KC registered. I'm not referring to your potential insemination as obviously you already have written permission from the KC for a valid reason.

will not normally accept an application the key word here NORMALLY .. this allows the KC flexibility and I think it is good that there is some flexibility.

I agree with you entirely Blue. However if the KC is taking on a new mantle of being so flexible it should be made common knowledge so we can submit AI applications again when we have previously been refused. If Fit n Fertile have been having a lot of success with chilled semen and the puppies registered that is indeed very encouraging. Had Zajak not come on CD with her good news we would never have known something like this could happen in the UK.

I would hate for AI to become an acceptable routine practice. If dogs have fertility problems or physically can't mate naturally then their genes should not be continued. It's not as if there's a shortage of dogs, after all!

Thankfully flexibility exists in the KC's remit.  There must be a LOT of males now long gone across many breeds where semen has been frozen and stored and which is invaluable to the gene pool of their respective breeds. 

If there is a limited amount of frozen semen for any line then it makes sense that the KC agrees, with prior notification where possible, to allow surgical AI if it is deemed to have a higher chance of success by the repro vet than TCI for example.

Using the PP facility is all well and good if one has the luxury of a breed where there are different lines to be found overseas - that  is not the case with my breed, certainly not the long haired varities.

As an aside I would encourage anyone who has a quality line for health, temperament and type to think ahead and collect from your top males now - ten years from now they may be sorely needed :)

Teri

"It's not as if there's a shortage of dogs, after all!"

For those of us in breeds with a very small genepool there is definitely a shortage. AI offers an opportunity, although an expensive one,to expand the genepool and access to outstanding overseas stud dogs. Also in rare cases some outstanding males from the past, both at home and abroad, had their semen frozen and can produce again by AI many years after their deaths.

Our KC AI rules prevent males that physically cannot mate from having their semen used.

Teri - just read your post. I agree entirely with all your points.

>Our KC AI rules prevent males that physically cannot mate from having their semen used.

But not females.

The nightmare scenario is the one where the dog delivers a sample which is immediately inseminated into the bitch; a natural mating isn't even attempted and indeed would be viewed with horror at the waste of time! I know of this happening in several countries.

> I would hate for AI to become an acceptable routine practice. If dogs have fertility problems or physically can't mate naturally then their genes should not be continued.

That's why I appreciate the fact that a bitch produced by AI cannot then have a litter registered by AI unless she has previously produced a litter naturally.  I believe that protects breeding integrity on the off-chance that the original AI'd bitch couldn't (or wouldn't have been able to) conceive naturally.

I couldn't agree more Terri, and am so glad I persuaded the owner of a male I bred to have some sperm frozen. At 10+ years old with fantastic temperament and none of the health problems that people expect in the breed (i.e dying at 4 of cancer) I was pleased that they got 24 straws. However with no guarantee of success and a failure from that AI (I was allowed 4 straws as recommended) the owner understandably wants to hang on to the precious cargo for very much in the future use.