What day is working day? Is it 28th or 29th Oct??

Forgot my diary and fosse won't open out on this

Working and Terriers on 29th :) Judging starts at 9am.

Thanks thought so, just booked it, work are trying to make me work, but my time off was authorised a while back..

I sooo can not wait till the 31st. Most dogs walking the parks where I live are GSDs, Labs and JRTs you are lucky if you see any other type, certainly nothing as exotic as the gorilla looking Newfoundland anyway, never seen 1 in my life, before Stan yesterday. So it might open my eyes to the world of dog breeds. And what kind of people have which type of breed and why.......should be fun...

Well on the 31st you will see the Hound and pastoral breeds.  Bet in the first group will be lots of breeds you rarely see and many that you would not consider will seem far more livable than the pre-conception of hound.

In pastoral of course you will find your own breed (though type of dog entered will very much depend on the judge!!!!), and some less well known/common ones.

In my experience in some breeds definitely a certain type of owner exists, but in most breeds it is the full gamut of humans that choose to share their lives with them.

Would most GSDs that enter be the ones that arch down at the back, because these are far removed from the everyday types you see around. I don't like these sorts, but then that is supposed to be the KC breed standard is it, to look like that?

>but then that is supposed to be the KC breed standard is it, to look like that?

The KC standard says "The topline runs without any visible break from the set on of the neck, over the well defined withers, falling away slightly in a straight line to the gently sloping croup."

and " Weak, soft and roach backs undesirable and should be heavily penalised."

Nope it depends on the judge, if it is a Germanic judge then you will get those, if a UK judge preferring the old fashioned long and low type, then that's what you'll get, (neither extreme is correct really).

If it is an all rounder judge you will get more middle of the road to my eyes correct leggier type in keeping with the KC standard.

Standards are not to blame when exaggerations are rewarded it is the interpretation by the judges and then breeders breeding to that type believing it to be correct.

So a dog with severe roaching of the back will be penalised? That's good because it cannot be beneficial to the dog as it grows older, hip wise I mean.

Worms, can of, tee hee.

Gotcha, don't go there you mean....I won't then.....don't want to upset the Germans...Hee

So find a judge that likes your style/example of the breed and you might just get a rossette eventually. I see.....

Oh its an interesting but sometimes bitter debate. 

Put German shepherd in the site search and you'll get the idea, LOL

The KC standard says "  "The topline runs without any visible break from the set on of the neck, over the well defined withers,

Can anyone please explain to me what well defined withers are - can't work it out, withers are sort of just there where the neck joins the back so if this to to be without any visible break how can it be well defined?

If it's true about the German police force changing to a different breed, because of the angle of the spine, and the dog suffering because of it, then the police in Britain are lucky our breed is more straight backed and can work longer hours. I have never seen this debate before, I'll read on, looks interesting though..cheers..

This article is interesting showing various world wide types of the breed: http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html

Must say the dog pictures as representative of the Chech type appealed to me

> Must say the dog pictures as representative of the Chech type appealed to me

No, that's the style I don't like. Nor The 1920's German old style either, and not just because Hitler had 1 like it. The liver and tan 1 with the person in jeans holding is more the type I prefer.

See personal preference 'n all, what I like someone else doesn't and vice versa.

> The liver and tan 1 with the person in jeans holding is more the type I prefer.
>

Oh no that one is more like a Sight hound, too weedy for a GSD.

If you read the standard http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/136 and not personal preference, which do you think fits?

Actually your choice and the 1920's dog are of similar type, too lightly built.

Old American show

See to me that does not coincide with:

Body
Length measured from point of shoulder to point of buttock, slightly exceeding height at withers. Correct ratio 10 to 9 or 8 and a half.

I knew this would happen :) you're gettin too technical for me..

I no what we'll do, at the show Stafford, we will take a bet, see who picks the winner, if there is a GSD group. Not my own personal opinion, but what I think the judge would be looking for, see who wins Miss no idea at all (me) or Mrs know's pretty much quite a lot (you). LOL

Do you not think apart from the different amount of angulation and the slope of the croup much of the exaggeration is even more pronounced by the way the dogs are stood.

From my way of thinking a dog to be able to move and remain healthy needs to have a leg at each corner, enough angulation in the front and rear assembly to enable the dog to move effortlessly with endurance and a head and fore face along with chest volume to allow the dog to breath and give room for the lungs and heart. It must also be of benefit if the slop of the croup and the set of the tail is not so as to be a handicap when the animal tries to defecate. Sadly some of the GSDs seen around are extremely exaggerated.

> Do you not think apart from the different amount of angulation and the slope of the croup much of the exaggeration is even more pronounced by the way the dogs are stood.
>
> From my way of thinking a dog to be able to move and remain healthy needs to have a leg at each corner, enough angulation in the front and rear assembly to enable the dog to move effortlessly with endurance and a head and fore face along with chest volume to allow the dog to breath and give room for the lungs and heart. It must also be of benefit if the slop of the croup and the set of the tail is not so sever to be a handicap when the animal tries to defecate. Sadly some of the GSDs seen around are extremely exaggerated.

I 100% agree with you totaly.

Yep, but we have square curly tailed dogs of moderate angulation size etc etc, LOL

Yep, but were not talking your breed though, :) You're always the same you are - me, me, me that's you. LOL

Yep, but we have square curly tailed dogs of moderate angulation size etc etc, LOL

I said nothing about being square, happy for a dog to have a relatively long back but there must be a limit or the breed (any breed) will have problems with back weakness, slipped disk and prone to injury. Many dogs carry the tail low and down but do not have the anal problems associated with the GSD it is a matter of degree.

> Many dogs carry the tail low and down but do not have the anal problems associated with the GSD it is a matter of degree.

A low hung tail has been 1 of the suggestions put forward as a possible cause in the GSD of Perianul Fistulas, not proven though, but people have been known to shave the area around the anus, to allow air through, and help to keep the area clean. Or even extreme measure of docking the tail.

Well well, a major hijak on my thread about GSD's.. lol..

I don't mind as my question has been answered... ;-)

Sorry Suejaw, one is inclined to answer a new post and totally forget what the thread is about.

> Do you not think apart from the different amount of angulation and the slope of the croup much of the exaggeration is even more pronounced by the way the dogs are stood.

Thats it, a dog can look quite different if stood the way most dogs are stood..ie both back hocks at a 90 deg to the floor, rather than the typical GSD show stance. Most dogs would have a more slopey look if stood the same way as the GSD is shown. Yes I owned & showed a GSD so I feel I can comment.

Thing is Lexy most dogs would get no where in the show ring with their hocks on the floor, well let down yes, almost parallel with the floor I have my doubts. 

You have miss read my post I did not say the hocks on the floor

> Well well, a major hijak on my thread about GSD's.. lol..
>

I know sorry, my fault. Because as soon as I saw the mention of Midlands I got all cited see...

You have miss read my post I did not say the hocks on the floor

I know you did not I was just saying how different the GSD is to the way most dogs are stacked, the last time I stewarded a class most were stacked with one hock on the ground.

> I said nothing about being square,

No I was only being tongue in cheek.  A dog does not need to be square to have a strong loin.

I know nothing, about showing. But how I see it is this - it is not natural for a dog to be bred in such a way, that it causes health problems. And it isn't natural to make a dog stand in that position either.

But I'm sure that's been done to death already. :)

Ooh, that was a great site Brainless! I liked the American old show type best, you can see they would have a more level topline if not in the show stance. The modern ones just look so unbalanced to me, my own breed requires a level topline so the combination of heavy muscled front and extremely sloping back end just looks odd to my eyes.

I have seen some GSD's at shows when walking around and stood normally they have a straight back, its over enhanced by the way that they do the show stand, why on earth would you put a dog into a stance like that? Especially when they can stand straight(some of them). The BOB in 2009 at Crufts, the photo does nothing for the breed. Not seen it in the flesh in a normal standing position so can't comment on that.
I've seen some lovely working GSD'S who are fit for purpose and look and move like I think they should.

as far as i know there are no classes for GSDs at mid counties

Good grief, the most popular breed in the world, would have thought they would have classes if not tickets at all the shows?

I suppose they have so many breed clubs and breed club shows they don't need the general champ shows.  This may be part of the problem with the 'great divide' if the two camps only go to their own type of show.

If it's true about the German police force changing to a different breed, because of the angle of the spine, and the dog suffering because of it, then the police in Britain are lucky our breed is more straight backed and can work longer hours.

A lot of police forces all around the world are changing from GSD to Malinois, but I've never heard any police dog handlers say it's because of the back. There is a huge difference in temperament, style of working etc of the two breeds which has a lot more to do with it. Plus health problems of any sort are virtually non existent in Malinois.

Good grief, the most popular breed in the world, would have thought they would have classes if not tickets at all the shows?

Do wonder if the committees who run indoor shows are not too keen on having GSDs, they are not the quietest group of show people and the amount of noise can disturb others. Mind you I may be out of date since it is a long while since I have shown next to a ring being used by them they may well have quietened down now.

> Do wonder if the committees who run indoor shows are not too keen on having GSDs, they are not the quietest group of show people and the amount of noise can disturb others.

Ooh ey, I'd better pretend I'm with the NEH group then, (else they won't let me in), I'm sure they are a much more sedate group of peeps. :)

LOL.

What's being refereed to is the way some people show GSD's.

In the UK dogs are not allowed to be double handled, that is attracted from outside the ring to make them look more alert. 

So we usually resort to titbit's or the promise of them, or some breeds stack (handle the dog into a static pose), often holding head and or tail.

Unfortunately in extreme double handling you will have people outside the ring doing all sorts to attract their dog (making noises, blowing whistles, waving etc), sometimes running around the outside of the ring etc.

You can see why this would be a nuisance to others and possible danger.  Thsi has given the breed a bit of a bad rep among other exhibitors.

> Unfortunately in extreme double handling you will have people outside the ring doing all sorts to attract their dog (making noises, blowing whistles, waving etc), sometimes running around the outside of the ring etc.

This is what I was planning on doing, just to show some support like, I've obviously got a lot to learn... :)

Don't forget the tin with a few dog biscuits in you will need to be shaking that as well and shouting. As I said I am sure it does not happen now days, I stewarded a GSD ring not so very long ago and they were quite quiet, I was relieved because it is horrid once judging has started to stop it because the rules are being broken.

Sian I dont know what the Old American type is like but having seen the Westminster Ch show videos with presumably 'New American type' I am mortified.

(written by an owner of straight back long hair chilled temperament types and I dont care if they're the wrong type, they're MY type)!

> Don't forget the tin with a few dog biscuits in you will need to be shaking that as well and shouting.

I'm sure your expecting me to act like some kind of footy hooligan or something. :)

Not my style, I'll be as quite as a moose, you won't even know I'm there. ;)