Out of interest, if you went to view a litter of pups, and the dad had a good hipscore, but the mums was 3:14, would you walk away.  Have seen a pup and am very interested but is this a little too high, and uneven?

The theory with badly unbalanced scores is that the bad side was damaged at some time, and isn't a genetic problem.

I would walk away.I breed labs and wouldn't consider breeding from one of my girls if that was her hip score.

Try to find both sire  and dam that have even'ish scores and if both total under ten that's good.If poss find the pedigree name of grandparents also and you can check their scores if not known on the kennel club website under 'healthfinder' search.

Both parents should also be elbow scored 0 and hold a CURRENT eye cert. If you can it is also advisable to have one parent,preferbly both DNA tested clear for pra and cnm.

Sounds daunting but they are out there, good luck.

The inheritance component of Hip Dysplasia is bilateral, so anything more than a few point difference in score in the hips will be caused by environmental influences. 

I would look further at the pedigree for the pattern of scores just for extra reassurance in preceding generations, and preferably the uneven animals siblings, but even without that I would not be walking away. if the breeding was what I wanted.

I would be concerned enough to ask the breeder about the high and un-even score, give them a chance to explain, see if there is a reason and how well though out the mating was. Check out the score of the grand parents on the dams side and see if they are good, if they are then perhaps there is not too much to worry about. You may be able to look up the scores of the dams siblings or the breeder may have already done so

Sorry Brainless you must have posted whilst I composed (well made some tea) and I have said much the same as you - apologises.

All you need to do is go on the KC website on the health page, look up the dog you are concerned about and at the side it asks you to click for the dam and sires results.  You can then put in there details seperately and hpefully get their parents scores etc.

I know everyone wants the perfect score but it's not extremely high and if you can see that there are a number of lot better results behind the dog and that other health tests and pedigree of the dog is good I'd be tempted.  I know you say the other parents score is good, do you know what it is?

Think this is a baby and bath water situation, you should not discard a pup just because the dams score is uneven and a couple of points above the breed mean. Check the background and siblings, and other health tests then consider other things like the conformation, type and temperament and if all but the hip score is good and the ancestry hip score is also good I would not  hesitate.

Thank you all for your replies, especially the reply about going on the kc website.  Didn't know I could do that and the grandparents on both sides are good, dad is good, just mum a bit high on one side.  I think it could have been an accident to make it uneven cos no other uneveness on either side.  He is absolutely gorgeous :)

All you need to do is go on the KC website on the health page, look up the dog you are concerned about and at the side it asks you to click for the dam and sires results.  You can then put in there details seperately and hpefully get their parents scores etc.

Lirilou, assuming previous generations have been tested you can build up a full picture of both sire and dam sides--I used this site to build up a 7 generation pedigree the other day and then compared it to the breed club's yearbooks over the past 5 years to check for any siblings of fitting dogs, etc.

It would be more helpful of course if they put a fully clickable pedigree (as the Finnish Kennel Club's Koiranet does) so you didn't have to go such a long winded way to get the info, but that is the way to do it, if you don't have a pedigree to hand with the info on it (one reason I do my own pedigrees) to show you the pattern of ancestral scores.

I would walk away.I breed labs and wouldn't consider breeding from one of my girls if that was her hip score

I have a bitch with a 17 hip score 4:13.  She broke her leg at 13 weeks old and the growth plate closed early which means that she actually has a shortened leg. Her litter sister has a 3:3 hip score! Quality? she still qualified for Crufts whilst in puppy something like 6 times over. However, you can see the difference in the hock now and it is approximately half an inch shorter than the other. She has had two litters, the first time mated to an 11 scored dog and produced two pups that have been scored 8 and 11. Her next litter to a 12 score dog produced a 3:3 scored dog. The Vet I use for scoring said that I should treat her score as though she is a 4:4 as the higher we know for sure was an injury. So I cannot agree with the above statement. You have done some research, now ask the question from the breeder to see if she knows why they are uneven. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Are you happy with the temperament as that is a major factor when purchasing a puppy. I would rather have a puppy from those scoring parents than one from parents with bad temperament.

Someone used my Spanish import who was scored in SPain with an excellent score and not so good a score here.  Her hipscore was 10/3, again she did sustain an injury early on and she had a litter the bitch she kept had a well below average even score.  Sadly we never got to know what she would produce as she was killed by a car whilst at the stud dog owners house.

Ok, so after doing lots of research on the family tree, I don't believe this 3/14 hipscore is genetic.  Also there is some fab breeding in there, eg Endacott Shelf, so have decided to take a chance.  Wish me luck and thanks for your replies :)

Out of nosiness I went onto the Glenbriar website looking for Endacott Shelf.  What a fabulous line.  I am so jealous.  I want one.  Good luck with your pup.

Good luck, sure you will get a lovely puppy.

Firstly, it is thought that H.D. is only 30% inheritable. Secondly, even if a parent had a hip score of 14:14, that would not seem to be really dire. Temperament is the most important consideration and elbow scores would be more important to me as elbow dysplasia is a most painful & debilitating condition. I don't believe a dog with a score of 2 or 3 elbows should be in a breeding programme and a 1 should only be mated with a clear. In the ideal world, low scores are best but do you know the breed average (hips) for the breed in question?

> Firstly, it is thought that H.D. is only 30% inheritable.

Thats interesting, can I ask if there is a paper or somewhere this is written up. There are so many schools of thought on this and I love to learn so this is right up my alley once pointed in the right direction :-).

Also just wondered as you would probably be able to answer this, how much is ED scores affected by injuries and/or bad husbandry compared to being hereditary? You get some dogs which seem to show no signs of lameness yet have scores of 2, are they ever likely to or is there just a chance?
http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/Elbow_Dysplasia.pdf
Just reading the above it makes a point of certain breeds that should not be used in a breeding programme if they have scores of 2 or 3.

Good luck!  My bitch (Lab) is a 0:0 out of a 10:9 scored bitch, the owners knew nothing about hip scores and possible environmental damage when they first got their pup, and lived up three flights of stairs.  I also own a half sister, who has a 3:3 hip score, so both nice and low. 

Apols if slightly OT, but just to reply re elbow dysplasia, if you equate it to hip scores, because of the much smaller range, a grade of 0:1 is equivalent to a hip score of approx 0:13 - so you can see straight away how uneven that appears?

I have a bitch who has higher elbow grades 2:1, she was hit by a car as a pup, and I do believe environmental factors played a large part in any possible deterioration of her elbows, without going into reams of my life, my ex believed the best way to make a dog sleep through the night was to walk the legs off it.  There is such a lot more weight on the front end of a dog of that size and build, it's easy to imagine with all the daft twists and turns they can be prone to doing more damage, possibly.  Add to that, a vet that was new to taking hip and elbow plates, and I think we may have ended up with the worst end of the proverbial stick in her case.  However, as much as I *think* the grades may not actually reflect her actual true elbow state, I did stick by the health test results, and decided to have her spayed, just in case anyone wondered ;) 

I don't believe a dog with a score of 2 or 3 elbows should be in a breeding programme

And yet, sadly they still are!

I bet you a lot more of untested dogs are used than those tested and known to have a high score, and yet somehow, the perception is that it's better to use a dog with an unknown elbow grade, to a dog with a 0 elbow grade, and yet if someone with a bitch like mine, 2:1 were to use that dog, it somehow seems much worse because the high grade is there in your face instead of something unknown.  I find that a really odd attitude, surely using a dog with an unknown elbow grade, is equally as bad or worse than using a dog with a known poor elbow grade?? It's always been one attitude I find confusing :?