I have absolutely no intention of breeding a dog, however Ive been a member of dog forums for many years and I sometimes read about someone taking months to research a suitable stud for their girl, seeing if their lines are compatible or they are a good match for their girl.  I just wondered, purely out of genuine interest, just exactly what makes a stud compatible or a good match?  I can totally understand about breed specific health tests /dna tests (mating clear/clear etc) and also making sure that pedigrees are not too close, plus maybe colour issues ie merle/merle or strengths/weakness ie wanting to improve a body characterstic, however what else do you bear in mind.

Ps. just so its clear that it is just a q out of interest, I have a neutered Cavvie and a Guide Dog pup here lol plus another lab pup who is due to be spayed at xmas :)

In my case I had a male first who I showed with a fair bit of success, and thought it might be nice to start my own line, so I went through the yearbook with my friend who bred him, picked all the dogs I liked the look of and she told me if they had compatible lines with him or were too closely bred, and then I bought a bitch puppy from one of those. In the end Henry developed a heart murmur and so I couldn't mate him to my girl, so I did a similar thing again. Ellie's head is not her fortune, so again I went through with my friend and picked dogs with lovely heads and my friend told me if the lines were compatible. This was of course in addition to both parents having all health tests etc.

same thing for us...took our girls to shows and did very well! started looking at stud dogs and found the lines i liked we found a older dog with these lines up for rehome we couldnt beleive it! we did a few shows he did very well but he just dont like the showing side of things he loves agilaty :) so we did all the tests ,he past them and a hip score of 0-0 :) x

I've owned one of my breeds for 14/15 years and early next year we are hoping for our first litter of pups from this breed.

We have always liked a particular line of our breed and this is where we started around 14 years ago, all the dogs we have bought in have come from similar lines and we have a great friend/mentor (our bitches breeder) who basically most people in the same breed have dogs that go back to hers.

We decided we would like to mate our bitch at the end of this year when she is 3 yrs old and really hope we get a bitch pup to continue to show and improve her lines.  For the last year we have been watching dogs in the ring and meeting many of them hands on and picking out one's we like the look of.  Our bitches breeder has done the same (we completely trust her judgement).  A few months ago we all agreed on a lovely dog who we think both on paper and physically he will compliment our bitch really well, all health tests are done on him and our bitch with great results, stud dog owner really likes our girl so now we are waiting for her next season in December and keeping our fingers crossed. 

For me the top priorities are health/longevity and temperament in a stud dog. Preferably the dog will be related to my lines so if I look at his pedigree I know something about most of the ancestors including age of death to tell possible puppy owners. My best litters have been linebred.

Three out of four total outcross matings weren't as good for me, also to choose a dog purely on wins and being flavour of the month, that's waaay down in my criteria now. There's more to the potential father of pups than red lines on a pedigree.

Depends on what you want from the litter. I.e. what do you want to improve on? Or strengthen? For instance I may have a bitch that could do with her eyes being darker so I make sure the stud dog has nice dark eyes. She may be on the slightly small or big side so I make sure the dog is the correct size and doesn't throw over sized or under sized pups. That sort of thing. Plus of course temperament -health goes without saying. It's no good just looking at names in pedigrees, you need to know something about the dogs, what their looks and temperament is like, what other pups have been like etc.

I chose my stud dogs purely phenotypically ie how his genes are expressed..... eg looks - his health (measured and tested) - his temperament.

Ironically he has to be the least related to my bitch as possible whilst still conforming to the above.

Temperament is the first thing, but as there are so few nasty ones in my breed that is the easy part ;-)

You have to be honest about your bitches faults. No point in looking at dogs with the same faults. We have a limited gene pool so looking for mates that aren't too closely related can be a real problem. A lot of dogs have to be rejected just because they are so closely related. Sometimes you have to take a backward step before you can go forward. There are too many people who look at the top winning dogs and forget about litter mates, or sometimes even the dogs that came 2nd or 3rd behind this top dog. In a small gene pool that can cause problems in the future.

There are 3 equally important areas to be considering.

You will have a minds eye picture of what the breed standard calls for in the ideal specimen of your breed, that covers the physical. 

Then there are the mental traits, temperament and working traits, drives (even if you don't work them they should still have some of the instincts and traits compatible with that which make a working dog).

Then of course you have Health, which for me includes gene pool and considering relationships and how this impacts on the breed as a whole.

I like looking at the progeny to see what the to be stud may offer and if there is a 'stamp' offered by him, then I look at the health testing and temprement, then back to my bitch and write a critique on her to be sure that the stud will complement her - then the task of the pedigree and how it looks on paper.  I'm not keen on using a dog for the first time but I have done when I've thought the dog 'good' enough and offering what I'm looking to improve.  Then I roll the dice and hope that best laid plans ........

I've noticed a few people not keen to use a first time male.....how does one find out if he is really worthy if folks are reluctant to use him? From what I have seen (not just here) but quite a few wouldn't be too keen to waste a mating for a "look see". It seems sometimes he might have to settle for a less than optimal mate just to prove he is worthy of a higher standard lady...

I have used a dog for the first time twice. It is a risk as I found out with the 2nd mating. I don't blame the dog or the bitch, it is just one of those things, but I ended up with elbow problems in my litter. :-( I took a risk, it didn't work out, but I would still use a dog for the first time if I thought he was a worthy specimen. Another dog I used had only been used once before I used him and his offspring were still too young to be in the showring. The male I kept from him won BIS at the breed club championship show, so you just never know how things will turn out. I would much rather use a dog for the first time than the current flavour of the month.

It is wise to use a dog for the first time on a bitch that ahs already proven ehrself to be a producer of quality ehalthy stock,a dn fo course if she is aobut 6 years old any issues of later onset problems are less likely with at least ahfl the genertic input of the pairing.

I woudl be lookidn very close3ly at the parents and granparents fo teh stud and what they ahd produced.

Wehn introcuing new blood it is often in ther form of importing a puppy dog, so yoru going even more on spec, and buying into the bloodline far more than the animal itself, and often this has worked with a  great deal of success, even when the animal itself has not turned out top drawer it's breeding comes out in it[s offspring.

I would sooner use a nice but not world beating animal with no exaggerations from a lien of dogs I admired than one who was a fabulous dog but I didn't like quite a few of it's ancestors.  As sure as eggs iz eggs you'll get the traits you disliked behind him in at least some of your pups.

I have both used a maiden dog and imported a puppy dog with friends.  To be honest every pairing will be unique,a and track record, analysing previous mates and offspring you can still be surprised, and even repeat matings or sisters mated to same dog can have very different pups.

> I've noticed a few people not keen to use a first time male.....how does one find out if he is really worthy if folks are reluctant to use him?

For my first ever litter, I used my own maiden dog over my own maiden bitch and the pups were born on his 7th birthday!      There was only one other person in the breed, besides myself who thought it was a good idea, thankfully we were proved right as a bitch from this litter won 6CC's - her first being at Crufts with BOB - and another bitch won a RCC, in turn this RCC winning bitch has produced 2 Sh.Ch. bitches & 2 RCC dogs for me.     Every litter I have bred has improved on the previous one.    I did get a few enquiries to use my dog after the Crufts win but I said no.

Unfortunately in my breed there are 2 cliques that have now split it down the middle, neither will use each others dogs and the gene pool is getting reduced further & further.

> I used my own maiden dog over my own maiden bitch and the pups were born on his 7th birthday!   

With the dog being older though you did pretty well know that he was unlikely to develop anything nasty.  Good pairings are often a matter of gut instinct.

Arguably my best litter came about as the result of the dog and bitch being in the same class at an Open show, and both of us suddenly saying the same thing how well they complemented each other.

He had won BOB and she RBOB, eh was a top winning dog, but had not been used much and had little to show for it.  She was a nice bitch that needed a bit more substance and coat, but was a good type and really good mover.

I was trying to space the dogs out so decided not to keep one of the pups and repeat the mating further down the line, fate intervened and I had Jozi (my pick puppy) back for re-homing at 8 1/2 months, sadly none of the others were shown, but I believe of the 6 bitches and 3 dogs, 3 more of the bitches could have been shown and one of the males with good results.

When assessing how well a mating went you want depth of quality in the litter not just the one flier, the offspring are more likely to produce well themselves.

So much after all the planning and research is luck (but should never be blind luck where health and temperament are concerned).

As for cliques and personalities, this only harms the breed and people loose out themselves.  I have always said I would use my worst enemies dog (though I hope I don't have enemies only people who aren't particular friends), if it were the right dog for my bitch.

Thank you all for your very interesting replies, Ive really enjoyed finding out more about the planning process about what makes a good match.  Also should anyone search for the words stud dog, it may actually make people think a bit harder about whether a mating should take place or not (well we can always hope cant we!).

There is definately a lot more to it than just not having too many common ancestors.

Thankyou again
x

Yes it is probably better to use a dog which is proven but someone has to start the ball rolling. I think if you know the siblings & parentage of the dog then it is worth the risk. I am planning on using an unproven dog & as with most matings/lotters there is always an element of a gamble. Somebody with a male was told that their dog would have been used by somebody else, if he was proven...he will never be proven if he is not used.

6 million doller question here,
have been in my breed for about 10 years now,j ust got my own affix and i'm watching the replys to this question.
i own only males at this time but hope to one day have a bitch to start my own line but feel i still have much to learn before then.

Even top breeders have lots to learn ;-) Sometimes the best way is to take the plunge, so long as you have done your homework first. Having someone nearby, not necessarily on the phone, but nearby to give a physical hand, can be a major help. They can help calm your nerves. The older I get the more I realise that I know nothing :-p Every litter is different and you learn with each one.

> The older I get the more I realise that I know nothing :-p Every litter is different and you learn with each one.

Oh how true.

I cant speak from experience with dogs as yet I have never bred a litter of dogs..

However with all animals (and I do play 'which dog do i like, which would i breed wtih which if they were mine' within my breeds)..

I look at type - is the animal conforming to the breed standard and to the ideal I hold in my mind. With Deerhounds, I am very particular about which I like and which I dont - for example if I cannot be pretty sure on what gender the dog is without looking between its legs, I don't like. Even if its a very lovely dog.. to me a bitch should look like a bitch and a dog should look like a dog.

Then is the temperament correct - do I want more dogs (or mice, snakes, rabbits etc all of which i have bred/do breed) that behave/act/think/learn the way this one does.

I also want to know that the animal in question is physically sound, moves correctly (b*gger the breed standard I want physiologically correct movement and conformation that is going to give that animal the best possible chance of a long and healthy life).

I dont like to breed from very young or unproven animals (though in mice i have no option as theres only a very small window of opportunity for their first litters) so i take into account hte age and the behaviour and conformation and type of any offspring they already have.

Then with dogs theres the results of various health tests to take into account as well (not so with snakes and mice).

If all that seems to fulfill my needs I do more research into the history behind the animal to see that everything I like is more or less there and nothing i really DONT like is liable to pop up.

Which all sounds really easy written down, but I would say im 10 years away from ever breeding either a litter of deerhounds or a litter of tibetan terriers, at the very least and the dogs in either breed I am making mental notes on now will be the ancestors of the dogs I would eventually be breeding - hopefully!

Im so sad I have a picture of Whistler's sire in my diary and copy pedigree and the same with Jake.
I try and see if they are growing up to look like Dad.
A really stupid questions now - if the dogs were introduced to their Sire and Dam would they recognise them?? I apologise i advanace for this question but Im curious if any research has been done?

I am pretty sure that dogs do recognise 'family' probably by scent, but this often means Dads often hating their sons who I suppose they must view as competition.

Certainly any pups that we have sold and met up with at shows, or who visit know it is their family.

I am even sadder as I wrote to the stud dog owner and the breeder of the mother for family pictures of my Elkhound girl, and I had done the same with my Groenendael.

Not research but we had a puppy party with my girls litter when the babies were 1 years old.
They had not seen their mother since they left at 8-9 weeks.
All definitely knew their mum and behaved like 8 week old puppy with her(even checking under her belly :))...
Other female members of the family were treated differently it was obvious they knew this is their mum.
She definitely recognized them too, looking like she was saying you must be joking they are all back??

Glad to hear that I thought they might, Whistlers Dad was a handsome one and Jake's a champion sheep hearder - Scottish reserve - I bet Jake would run a mile with sheep!! but I will take him back for a trial before too long and see if it is his gene's.

Please could we keep the thread on topic (ie about how to choose a stud dog). It might be better to start a new thread to discuss whether sires/dams recognise their offspring.

Thanks

To choose a stud dog you have to be honest and objective about your own bitch and what you like and dislike. You then look for the dogs that have what you lack but not to the detriment of what you already like in your bitch and line.
Another thought is the pedigree, you may want to look at a dog that not too close to your own line, it is always good to look at a stud dogs extended family, its parents, siblings and any offspring it has sired. This will give you some idea what traits seem to be fixed and passed on in that line.
Some people may want a stud dog that has been proven and known to sire reasonably sized live litters (though litter size is down to bitch), especially if they have had a bitch miss before, or one that older (6-7 years). Others would prefer a dog that hasnt been used, or not used very much as this may mean that they have more diversity. This is ok when you use the dog, but if the blending proves successful, then that dog suddenly may become very popular with other breeders and your hoped for diversity disappears.
One thing that shouldnt rate high on the choices, is winning, location, or price. If those three are a major factor then often the choice of stud is incorrect.

Thank you again for all the replies to this thread, its been very informative and interesting, especially from someone that has only ever been a dog owner and not a breeder.  You dont realise just how much goes into a decent breeders plans and thoughts.  Perhaps this thread will be able to help people who are looking into putting their dog into stud.
x

> Perhaps this thread will be able to help people who are looking into putting their dog into stud.
>

You don't put your dog to stud you ALLOW your dog to be used at stud if the right bitches owners ask you.

You should not allow your dog to be used at stud unless you know the bloodlines well or have someone you can rely on and trust who does (often the dogs own breeder if they are expereinced). 

A stud dog owner needs to know/research even more than the potential breeder who will know their own lines well, but the stud owner needs to know all the lines as much as possible.

look long and hard at your bitch ....why do you want to mate her ,when satisfied for the right reason look closely at your bitches pedigree and do your research in plenty of time ...has your bitch and the stud had the relevant health checks ..personally i would pick a dog who compensated for my bitches faults and ( this is where you have to be honest with yourself )and whose lines were compatable. Dont just go for the winning dog of the moment or the one next door .IMO any mating should if possible produce puppies to adhere to the breed standard andhopefully breed out such faults that are apparant in either animal...having said that some matings of two nice dogs can produce an exceptional litters and two exceptional dogs offspring can dissappoint ...if there was any guarantee the world would be full of perfect dogs !!!!! I would however expect different terms from the owner of an unproven dog to that of an experienced sire

I think that varies by breed, in my breed an unproven dog is the same terms, but then stud fee is paid when a bitch has produced.

that normally happens in our breed for unproven but more often than not money upfront for proven sire and then free repeat mating if no pups

I would however expect different terms from the owner of an unproven dog to that of an experienced sire

Interesting as this appears to be the norm for the VAST majority of experienced breeders I have spoken to and yet there appears to be a "new breed" of first time dog owner (let alone stud dog owner) that appears to believe they should get a huge sum of money IN ADVANCE of any MATING let alone litter and put incredibly onerous conditions on the owner of the bitch.

Is it any wonder that EXPERIENCED breeders/bitch owners prefer to use ANOTHER dog of EQUAL if not SUPERIOR quality and ACTUAL achievement (in the ring/field/relevant discipline)?

I often wonder where these first time stud dog owners (yet to be used) get their ideas from?

i would agree to pay a handling fee of about £100 for unproven dog but no more until evidence that the bitch is in whelp, some breeders do this with experienced stud dogs it just depends on the stud dog owner.in fairness there is a difference between a first time stud dog owner and a dog being used for the first time at stud .... I personally would not take my bitch to a stud dog owner who didnt have experience .what sort of conditions do you mean ?

If the stud is no longer available for whatever reason, for the return service,  the stud owner reserves the right to offer a different stud to the bitch  owner, if available.

Agrees that all puppies will be micro-chipped prior to going to their new  homes and that all puppy, microchip and corresponding owner details will  be passed to the stud dog owner prior to the puppies leaving for their  new homes.

For the lifetime of the puppies provide a comprehensive  back up service to owners and assist in any re-homing required, either  in the form of monetary help to assisting rescue organisation &/or  finding of new and suitable homes.

Well point two and three seem perfectly reasonable (though I'd negotiate on chipping to tattooing) it is great to think the stud dog owner is as interested in the homes the pups are going to as the breeder.

As for point one, when I choose to use a dog it is that dog not a stand in I'm interested in, it's up to me which alternative dog I choose next time if the bitch misses..

Surely you would need the buyers permission in order to pass their details onto another party? Data protection act.

And it was not the conditions per se I was surprised at re breeder support but the fact there was NO onus on the stud dog owner to do same re pups lifetime support etc.

To be fair to the stud owner they have no input into the homes that are chosen, and most will help out when a dog needs help, especially one that wanted owner details, but they are less likely to get enquiries from potential owners unless they breed themselves.

Have always informed stud dog owners (where UK based) of any returnees needing homes and have received help with pick-ups and getting word out, but tehn as a breed we tend to all help in such cases where we can.

We pass on owner details to dog food manufacturers if we give out their puppy packs, ditto the Insurance companies.

I understand what you are saying and agree with you however, if you write a contract which only ONE of the parties has to say they will agree to rehome etc I think that is a littleone sided....... I would expect there to be a clause within it to say ditto for the stud dog owner.

And as for passing on details to firms etc, under the DPA you must get people's permission to do this.

i personally would not undertake a stud contract if the owner wanted to use a replacement ...if in the event of a repeat mating the original dog for whatever reason was unavailable then a refund should be offered if the whole stud fee has been paid but not the handling charge after all in the case of no pups the bitch has still been mated ......as for the other points any reputable breeder should have the long time welfare of their puppies at heart whether rehoming ,vetting homes ,24/7 advice for the lifetime of the puppy .To a certain extent more onus is on the owner of the bitch but sorry if you arent happy choose another stud dog owner or perhaps even better dont consider breeding at all in the scheme of things a lot more could go wrong