Hi All

Does anyone know if AI will be agreed by the KC if the dog lives in this country but is out of the country at the time of mating due to a working competition?

No, because the dog is 'normally resident in the country'.

I did wonder having read the conditions on the kc website.  What do other people do in these instances?  Use a different dog or wait a season I presume?  As has been discussed on another thread why do these girls always seems to decide not to play ball on the seasons we are hoping to mate them!!!

Alternatively the bitch could travel with the dog, but your right mostly the mating or the trip would be put off.

The trip cannot be put off, its the world champs! Am on the lookout for a backup dog as she either has to come in tommorow or wait 2 weeks!!!

>The trip cannot be put off

Of course it can! Competitions are voluntary, not compulsory! It depends on whether the stud dog owner thinks the competition or your bitch are more important ... ;-)

I've got to be honest, if it were me, I wouldn't put it off.  No matter how nice the bitch coming to visit my dog, if the competition were the pinnacle of my dogs working career and something I had strived 5 years to get to then I wouldn't put it off.  I have refused studs for my dog due to not wanting to affect his working brain at certain times of the competing calender!   I suppose you could say that using your dog is stud is also voluntary, not compulsory!  It just depends on your priorities doesn't it? 

Depends on what was agreed at the time you agree to accept the bitch to your dog. 

One of my dogs was born as a result of a mating just as the sire was off to the world agility championships - his breeders had a reserve dog lined up in case the bitch didn't come into season whilst he was still here, but fortunately she came in the day before he was due to leave, so they drove from Scotland to the Midlands and he set off either that night or early the next day!  No one would have expected him to have missed the world championships - can't remember if it was that one or the next that he became a World Team Agility Champion :-)

Brainless, it wasn't a stud I had already agreed and then let the owners down, that would have been unfair.   When they told me she was due in season in the middle of the show season, I declined from the outset.  My priority for my lad is his working career, not his stud career.

PennyGC, I am hoping just the same will happen here, she needs to be in by Wednesday and then we are probably looking at a mating the day before he goes off too.  Obviously had a good effect on your dog's dad!

You do have a about a 4 or 5 day window for mating so hopefully even with a clash the dog will not be away that long.  Not ideal, but might work out.

Hi Brainless, yes I am hoping it may work out that way, fingers crossed!  I have got another dog lined up if necessary but I really prefer this dog. 

Hi all.  Well I have spoken to the KC today and they have confirmed that they have no problem with accepting a litter by AI if the dog is out of the country at the time the bitch is ready for mating.  My next question is, how successful have you found AI to be?  Do any of you have any recommendations in terms of clinics, I would be looking for Nottingham area or thereabouts if possible? I picked up some info at Crufts this year from a fertility clinic but damn me if I can't find it anywhere!

Have you got this in writing Zajak, as it does conflict with their written advice.  I would not trust just something a KC employee told me over the phone.

As for success rates, it has been very poor in my breed using frozen semen, lots of attempts but only two litters 30 years apart. 

You now can import fresh chilled semen, but the dog has to be Pet passported and either route requires a License (quite some time in advance if memory serves) and has to be handled by a Licensed person etc.  Lot of Red tape, not like fresh express as done in USA where it is all done by DHL or whoever and you take the container to your vet to do the business the next day.

Fresh chilled semen used by an experienced repro vet inseminated within 24 hours of being taken has almost as good a chance as natural service.  I believe the chances with frozen can be as low as 20%, but some specialists achieve very good results.

Thanks for the warning Brainless, I have the guy's name but as you say written confirmation would be better. I will see what I can get them to do for me.

In the meantime I have spoken to a very helpful lady at Fit N Fertile in Lancs.  I'm just hoping she might hang on another couple of weeks then I can use the dog when he returns from his trip!

I would like to think that the conception rate with frozen semen is greater that 20%.!!!!!!

Fit n Fertile have claimed 74% success with frozen.

As Brainless says it must come down to the individual who carries it out at the end of the day.

> I would like to think that the conception rate with frozen semen is greater that 20%.!!!!!!

So would I but I don't think 2 successes and lots of failures in our breed even gives that.

If it were more reliable I wouldn't' be travelling with my girl.

Hi Brainless  Do you have any ideas as to why there is such a low conception rate with frozen semen in your own breed?

Nope the procedures were carried out by know specialist centres.  We laughingly say that our breed is too primitive to approve of such things, yet in USA they get good results (though it's most often Fresh Express)

The semen was collected in Scandinavia in each case and I do wonder if the problem may be with the collection and storage rather than the implantation.

The most recent successful one (over 10 years ago) was done by the Guide Dogs for the Blind specialist whose name escapes me, and they used all 6 remaining straws (earlier attempts using fewer had failed with another bitch) to get a litter of 6 from a bitch who had previously had a litter of similar size.

I would have tried Fresh semen from the US, but it would have meant asking someone to pet Passport their dog, a process they would not be familiar with, and tehn it seems there woudl still be a lot of very expenisve red tape and specialist fees.

The most cost effective option is to fly with her from UK as checked baggage, return to Brussells as the smae, and then car and Ferry back to UK on Pet Passport route.  Coming back to UK by Plane as Cargo is just ludicrously expensive.

Unfortuantely will have to guess re timing as flight needs bookign as soon as season starts, so aim to be away about 12 days.  That's assumign we don't get colder than average weather when we won't be allowed to fly.

Why dont you import some frozen semen from America it is fairly easy to do and procedures with freezing and progesterone testing have  moved on greatly over the last 10 years

> Why dont you import some frozen semen from America

Lack of confidence in the procedure (nothing beats natural service) and expense.  No-one seems to be able to tell me what it might cost all in. 

Seems none of the actual specialists and storage facilities are near me, and I have a bitch who hates blood sampling (after having blood taken for DNA testing at 4 months) and ended up sedated for her Rabies titre.

I've had 2 failures with frozen AI, one from a proven dog in Finland, one from a proven (deceased dog) over here. Used 2 different specialists. Both bitches had a litter previously, were progesterone tested for right day. Have no idea why it didn't work and I was very disapointed. If I go down that route in future I will be asking about their success rates first. My friend in Australia has always had a live litter born when using AI (both frozen and chilled).

There is a lady who breeds Golden Retrievers has used AI and seems to be successful using frozen from her well known dog of years ago but I don't know who she uses.

That is very dissapointing .Is it true to say that frozen semen conception rates in general in the show dog community are very low

Anecdotally disappointing, but there have been some publicised successes.

Would love to have some real statistics.

"Would love to have some real statistics".

It would indeed be very nice Brainless. I have asked the KC for the number of AI litters registered per year and how many were by TCI or surgical insemination and apparently these statistics are privileged information and not for release to the public.

Which facilities in the UK do surgical inseminations does anyone know

This is the problem, ask you vet about repro specialists and they haven't any idea, so your left with goggling, and are faced with advertising rather than statistics you can compare.

Must admit though I haven't tried the BVA for a list of canine repro specialists.

"Which facilities in the UK do surgical inseminations does anyone know"

Those with access to Veterinary Services for the surgical inseminations or those who are actually qualified Vets themselves. So overall I believe that would include most offering AI services for KC registered stock.

Paris - I took the liberty of sending you a PM yesterday.

Does seem that the RCVS do not approve of Surgical AI which seems to be the most successful (is it?) based on speaking with US contacts. http://www.rcvs.org.uk/shared_asp_files/uploadedfiles/99a8be64-d9a9-4b4c-9014-bf739028f411_an08_canineai.pdf

"Does seem that the RCVS do not approve of Surgical AI"

Problem is Brainless the RCVS have lumped all breeds together as the same physical construction with regard to TCI. On occasions the equipment available for TCI is not suitable for some breeds presented. However they have ingnored any possible welfare issues with regard to attempts to use it on these breeds.

It's a question of ethics. Is it ethical to perform surgery, with its small but inherent risks, to achieve something as basically fundamental as reproduction? The KC and BVA think not.

The RCVS has laid down guidelines as per the PD detailed above by Brainless.I am advised that this was done at the instigation of the KC.I was not aware that there were any repro vets or facilities in the UK that ars still prepared to perform surgical AI's on show dogs that was why I was asking the question as maybe the situations has now changed

So are there statistics for the success rate with non surgical AI, especially as it pertains to the UK.

I dont know Barbara

You need to break down AI into fresh,chilled and frozen  and then again to simple vaginal,TCI and surgical.I guess if you phoned a vet/facility they would be able to give you their experience of their own conception rates.

and back to the original problem finding a list of vets that offer such services and comparing.

It is a very demanding speciality Barbara,especially when frozen semen is involved and unfortunately it does not sit well when you are trying to run a veterinary clinic.Unfortunatley frozen semen AI has to be done when the bitch is ready and not when you are available or feel like doing it.Usually on a Sunday or Bank Holiday

What has that to do with the paucity of data re where who can do ti and the rate of success in the UK.

Organising flying a dog and guessing the timing, necessitating 10 days or more stay in a foreign country (to cover likely timing) is no mean feat but we know that natural matings are likely to work reasonably often to be worth taking the chance.

We don't seem to be able to get information enough to decide on weather AI would be a workable affordable alternative.

I didnt know that  a dog has to have a pet passport to have its semen exported,I suppose its ensuring that the dog is up to date with its vaccines and worming etc etc.

A dog does not necessarily have to have a pet passport to import his semen into the UK

Barbara,fresh semen/natural matings are obviously much easier to plan/do.The point I am making is that matings involving frozen semen are much harder to manage as the window of opportunity is much reduced some times it may be down to 6 to 12 hours.Facilities/vets must be available 7 days per week/24/7 to achieve top conception rates.

I believe an overseas dog is required to have a Pet Passport if his semen is to be imported to the UK without it being quarantined for six months in his homeland.

It depend which country he is in and the status of the semen ie chilled or frozen

Or CHRISTMAS day Paris in our case!

Thats right Wolfie LOL .These bitches have no conception of day or time When they are ready they are ready.

> I didnt know that  a dog has to have a pet passport to have its semen exported

They need it to have fresh semen imported. 

Then there are all sorts of rules regarding frozen semen having to undergo quarantine dependent on where it came from and the health status of the dog.

Basically this whole discussion is why I have decided to just travel to Sweden to use the dog I want to use.  I looked at importing semen (and having a Pet Passport did appear to be a requirement for DEFRA with each fertility clinic I spoke with) and by the time I calculated even approximate costs, plus the risk of it not working, I figured it would cost me about the same to just go take the dog myself (including getting 2 passports for her and a buddy).  At least this way if she doesn't take we get a bit of a holiday out of it rather than nothing to show for it.  Just SOOO many hoops to jump through when talking importing etc it just seemed like so much work.

The dog may have been coming over here this year in which case we would have collected him and tried it (much less cost/risk).  However, everything I read and heard back said TCI only (surgical not allowed over here), better results from fresh chilled etc.  If I could have had surgical I might have still considered it.

Unfortunately my girls wouldn't do well on a plane, so we're driving, but it'll be an adventure. 

Gosh we've digressed a bit from the original post.

To the OP - how were you planning on doing it if using AI?  Collecting from the dog before he left?

Surgical is allowed in the UK
I am shocked to hear the bad reports and perceived low conception rates with frozen using TCI .In most breeds both large and small it is a relatively simple procedure and in my experience the conception rate is in the 90% range

>Surgical is allowed in the UK

It is frowned upon by the RCVS, thus putting the vet at risk of censure, and makes KC registration unlikely. From the KC website

The Kennel Club is advised by the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons that surgical insemination as described in b), has "many disadvantages for the bitch", and so has a higher 'welfare debt'. This means that the benefits accrued from its use will have to be considerable to offset this 'welfare debt'.  The RCVS advises veterinary surgeons that surgical AI is justified "only for exceptional reasons", and requires the vet to "record in the bitch's clinical records why trans-cervical insemination is not a practical option and the justification for the invasive procedure".

The Kennel Club will therefore require justification of the net benefit to the bitch in conceiving as a result of this "invasive procedure".

Yes I know Jeangenie.The KC have registered litters done by surgical insemination quite recently