Hi there, I am an owner of a Neapolitan Mastiff and have been a member of the UKNMC for about 7 years or so, and have represented our breed at Discover Dogs at Crufts on numerous occasions  I also owned a Dogue de Bordeaux who died two years ago from heart failure 2 months before his 7th birthday.

I was at a show recenty and was speaking briefly to a chap with a young DDB. I recognised this fellow as i have seen him on numerous occasions manning the booth at DD at Crufts.  We spoke briefly and I mentioned that we had had a DDB, that he died 2 years ago.  The chap asked how old he was and I told him.  His response was "Oh, that's not a bad age". I'm just wondering what others here think of that comment. My opinion is that it is too young of a dog who was extremely fit and lean his whole life, had low stress and well looked after.

What struck me about the comment was that if 6 years and 10 months is a decent age for a DDB to die, what age are the other dogs dying at which makes him think this?  The literature from decent, well sourced dog books used to state about 8-12 years life expectancy, so why is it that a fellow who has been breeding for at least 5 years, thinks it's acceptable for a fit dog to die at less than & years.

My other concern is what kind of advice is this chap giving to people at Discover Dogs who are interested in the breed?

It is a fact that in general the larger the dog the younger they seem to die.

>What struck me about the comment was that if 6 years and 10 months is a decent age for a DDB to die, what age are the other dogs dying at which makes him think this?

The Kennel Club health survey results give the median age of death as a staggering 3 years and 10 months, although the oldest was 16 years old. However only 5 deaths were reported, so it's nowhere near being an accurate picture of the breed as a whole!

Should the title read Pedigree Dogs?  This sounds to me to be aimed at DDB's or the bigger breeds which sadly do seem to die at an earlier age.

I have a rare breed which I've had for 18 years.  Two have died at the age of 12 and one at the age of 15.  I have one at the moment who is 10 and definitely looks as though she has a number of years in her yet, she still acts as though she's only around 2 years of age.

My Pom's average age would I think be around 14/15 years.

My 2 previous GSD - 1 lived till 12 years, 1 till 61/2 years, my experience luck of the draw.....

Yes, I realise that bigger dogs have shorter life spans and giant dogs have the shortest but that's not what the post is about.

What is it about, specifically, if not the average lifespan of the DDB?

Sorry, I'm obviously being thick, what is the thread about?

The title seems at odds with the OP can it be clarified please.

We' have labradors - lifespan seems to be between 14-17 years.

We also have australian shepherds - sadly lost one (Loki) in the summer, aged 10 years 10 months.   Her brother Thor (His Thorship) is 12 years & 6 months is still going strong - despite auto-immune & wonky hips!

Apologies for not being clear.   Why is there an acceptance among some breeders that certain dogs die young.  DDBs are supposed to live until about 10 or 12 but few do, so why aren't we insisting that steps are taken to ensure they are?  I don't think it just applies to longevity but to other health problems as well.

> Why is there an acceptance among some breeders that certain dogs die young

Surely you'd need to ask those breeders.

I most certainly dont accept that some breeds die young but I am trying to get my own house in order - a more realistic aim than sorting the entire problem out or just commenting on it.

Surely you can't fight nature to some extent? If bigger breeds do die young then we can't expect to be able to make them live to 14 or so like a smaller dog. Unless they are all dying from the same condition how can you breed a longer living dog without knowing what his or her lifespan will be or even that of its parents and possibly gran-parents?
People are supposed to live until 80-90 years but many die younger, the 10-12 is only an average figure, and may be an unrealistico ne if so many breeders find they live shorter lifespans.

Don't think you can demand that something lives longer, just how would you do that. Perhaps the expectation or 10 to 12 years is unreasonable and 8 to 10 would be nearer the truth. A lot depends on what the cause of death is, if they all die from a hereditary or congenital problem then one could demand that they did something but if it is from a variety of causes then what can a breeder do.

Think this is a case of the stated length of life may be incorrect perhaps a full and proper survey would sort that but you need a return of a questionnaire to be in the region of at least 70% to get a true picture. Some people will give a dog relief at the first signs of problem other will hang on to the bitter end so the reaction to illness, pain and mobility also need to be taken into account before you get anything like a true picture and are then in a position to try it improve the expected life span.

Well it won't come as a surprise to anyone to hear me say that I think that Hieronymous raises a very good point. Still ringing in my ears from Manchester Champ Show three years ago was the Bernese Mountain Dog breeder who told me: "Oh you have to love them a lot because you don't have them for long." This because of the malignant hystiotytosis that means many Berners die way too young.

I think there's way too much acceptance of these reduced lifespans. Truth is that of course it is possible to extend average lifespan - by selecting for longevity. Breed from older dogs - perhaps by thinking about storing semen when they are younger. And in the case of the giant breeds - make them a bit smaller. There is good evidence that they will live longer as a result.

Jemima

> DDBs are supposed to live until about 10 or 12 but few do, so why aren't we insisting that steps are taken to ensure they are?

Did the man give you an indication of what the dogs are dying of?  I do not breed and don't have a great understanding of genetics but do you think there are specific illnesses or diseases the dogs are dying from and are these things that can be bred out of the breed or do you suspect it is a bit more random than that?

As you will see from the KC survey only a small number noted and of those deaths recorded none died of the same thing. Not sure how many are actually registered but there probably not enough to make and reasonable or meaningful assumption.

EDIT: I have just looked at the numbers of DDB being registered and the fact that there was such a low return for the health survey appalling mind you my own breed was not good so I do wonder if the distribution was as good as it may have been because I can't remember receiving one.

Sadly bloat seems to be one of the biggest problems that take our breed at ANY age, often 2-3 years old. I have had, as some on here will know a very bad experience of losing a ddb far too young, to a spinal deformity, she came from good bloodlines, healthy, hip scored etc but there was 2 puppies in the litter with the same condition, my girls was more severe but we lost her at 13 months and her sister was pts at 2 years, this was a very sad situation but seemed to be just back luck, The sire had produced many litters so it may of been just that combination of dog/bitch that was the problem but something that couldnt have been forseen.

Others problems seem to be heart and kidneys from my own research. 

some breeds for example flatcoats breeders are working very hard to improve life expectancy of the breed. Given that this breed is prone to cancer there is alot of research being carried out to solve this problem and therefore increase their life expectancy. I would imagine that there are others who are also working to in the same way to improve their breeds health and not just accept a short life.

my ddb died 3 weeks ago due to a stream of fits out of the blue in the evening, aged 4 and 3 quarters.his mum we found out was pts aged about 3. sad...

The solution to me seems very simple.  Say you buy a puppy from a breeder with the intention of breeding yourself.  When the dog is one or two years old, you decide to breed from this dog.  Contact the breeder and ask if the parents are still alive and in good health.  If the answer is no, don't breed.  Register the pps but put an endorsement (i think this is the right term), of progeny not to be registered without your permission.  If someone want to breed from one of your pups, find out if your dogs' parents are still alive and in good health. If the answer is yes, breed by all means and lift the endorsement.  If the answer is no, i.e. the parents have heart disease or cancer at an early age, and by that i mean 5,6 or 7 years old, don't breed.  This is how natural selection works.  Healthy, long lived animals reproduce more, passing on these genes, ones that aren't robust enough don't and the faulty genes become extinct.

Breed from lines which have proven longevity and we will have a far greater chance or breeding dogs with long lifespans.  Don't breed form dogs whose parents or grandparents have died at a young age.  Breeders need to keep track of these things for this to work but the answer is in our hands.

We shouldn't be accepting that this is just the way of t, we should be challenging so called experts at shows who tell us these dogs "don't live too long".  I certainly wouldn't touch a pup from one of these people with a ten foot poll no matter how many champions were in the pedigree.

It may surprise you that that is exactly what many breeder do.  It is what I mean when I say that people need to research their bred an bloodlines.

This doesn't mean that sh*t doesn't happen.

My foundation bitch lived to 13.5yrs,a nd her mother to 14, and her grandmother an great grandmother to 15, yet her daughter by an imported dog (who himself lived to 12 1/2) died fit and healthy in her sleep at a month short of 11. 

At present her daughter is almost 13, and I have three more generations (11, 7, 3.5, and 2).

Often of course we won't know the longevity at the time we need to breed from the bitch especially (the window is limited), but then we can choose to mate a Young animal to an older stud and vice versa only use a young unproven dog on an older bitch, and of course check to see how many of the older relatives are still around.

Specifically the DDB, some of this info may not yet be available for the UK population as not enough generations have passed since the breed was introduced, but I would hope that good breeders are doing what they can to improve life span and health, though sadly the breed is one that has attracted many people into breeding them purely for cash.

>We shouldn't be accepting that this is just the way of t, we should be challenging so called experts at shows who tell us these dogs "don't live too long".

We??  You could be preaching to the converted on here - it's certainly a topic we've discussed before.   Did you challenge your man?  What did he say when you questioned him?

...Just musing, it might be worth dropping their breed club a line to advise that this is the feedback being given at Discover Dogs.  The possibility of a very short life is certainly a worrying state of affairs whether accurate or not

though sadly the breed is one that has attracted many people into breeding them purely for cash.

You may well be right, when I saw the number registered last year I was shocked that number cannot be the result of careful breeding. Not sure how many have been imported but the numbers seem to have exploded one would have thought they would require a specialist home and I can not imagine where these numbers are ending up. And that is only the ones that are registered do wonder what the total numbers are.

>though sadly the breed is one that has attracted many people into breeding them purely for cash.

Too right. :-( Underage, without health tests, and the greeders still charge a huge sum for them. :-(

absolutely, breeding these at a year old is something i have seen all too often, very very sad and clearly just owning them to make some cash, then you often see them advertised at 4 years old when they have finished with them...dreadful.  Far too many people in this breed for completely the wrong reasons and i think that plays a huge part in the health of the breed today :(

> Not sure how many have been imported but the numbers seem to have exploded

Same situation as was seen with Akita's, Shar Pei, and more recently both Siberian Huskies and Malamutes, but more crossing of the two.

With the Akita's and Sibes only coming to UK in 1980 it is quite sad to think that most of the General Public recognise these breeds but most have never heard of our breed (unless of an older generation or in the area where one large puppy supermarket is) that has been here since 1870, and if we are not careful with registrations down to 50 - 100 is only hanging on by a hair.

This is the great problem, how do we encourage interest in a  breed without getting into the situation of the wrong kind of people breeding badly for the wrong reasons

how do we encourage interest in a  breed without getting into the situation of the wrong kind of people breeding badly for the wrong reasons

Think the problem is with the breed, they are not large, not flashy, you can't threaten with them. they are not a status symbol, they are not the easiest to train, you can't bully them, they only come in one size and one colour. They have a similarity to the wolf but so far (thank goodness) our breeders have not allowed them to be bred with a GSD so that is another chance for fame gone.

To be serious we are fortunate that they are numerous in Europe and the USA so we should weather this drop in numbers. Would hate to have an explosion in sales from that place in the north west because there are not enough available from club breeders.

Unfortunately in the USA our breed are facing similar proportional dropping numbers, and in their homelands the numbers are dropping as fashions change.

I know for example in Finland in 2006 our breed was the 3rd most numerous in registrations, two years later I think 5th and dn now barely in the top 10.

I have looked at a few US pedigrees of liens imported,a d guess what, lots of familiar names, no room for the complacency, oh we can always get new blood.

> Would hate to have an explosion in sales from that place in the north west because there are not enough available from club breeders.

Re the above, it;'s already happening, there are long waiting lists for puppies and people are admitting they have got one commercially bred or bred by back yarder (often across the Irish sea) who supply these, as they couldn't find a  puppy within reasonable waiting time.

I have had people on my waiting list, not enough pups passed onto other breeders and come back to go on my next waiting list as no pups to be had.  Few will be that patient.

Those bad breeders are just rubbing their hands with glee.

Those bad breeders are just rubbing their hands with glee.

Have to acknowledge your greater knowledge and to return to the topic it is no wonder that the health of some breeds is deteriorating, without the dedicated people breeding for improvement those who are only interested in money will step in to fill the gap.

Do think that some of the unfair and hyped up publicity of pure breeds of late may well have contributed to the loss of breeders who at one time did the job of breeding with only the health and correct conformation in mind. Who in their right mind is going to continue with their work in the face of such generalisation, lies and insinuations. Apart from the hardy and single minded like yourself the breeding is now being undertaken by those who have joined the gravy train of the popular breeds and cross breeds, hopefully they will not be interested in breeds like ours because I would rather they became rare in this country than fall foul of the breed for money only brigade that are at the moment going from strength to strength with the general help of the media.

Amen to that

I spoke to a young chap with a 12 week old DDB at our obedience class. I asked him if it was the first he'd owned, he replied that no, they had just lost another DDB at only 3 years from heart failure.