I read a show report to day where a champ show judge witheld first place in a class of two
the other dog was second how can this be or is it a typo! any thoughts on this.
UpUp and away.

If the judge withheld the first place the two exhibits should have been placed Second and Third.

If the judge withheld all awards from one of the dogs then the remaining one should have been placed First.

Could be the judge withheld all awards from one exhibit and the First from the other.

That is right, only if the judge withholds 1st to third prize is no further prize to be awarded, otherwise a judge could withhold first, and or second and give just a second or third placing.

The judge could of course award first and/or second, but withhold all further awards if the exhibits lacked merit.

I've been thinking, yes I know but I have. Wonder why judges withhold the first and award the dog a second. Does not make much sense because the dog is still unbeaten and can still qualify so there seems little point. Would have thought is the dog really lacks merit you should withhold altogether. On the other hand perhaps judges only withhold the First and award the second so they can write a critique and explain themselves.

What do others think and have you ever withheld. Also what do people think of withholding at an open show, should it happen more often?

Its a very hard thing to do and unfortunatley i had to do it once,at an open show after spending a considerable amount of time with and exhibit, 15 mins (only dog in class)The exhibit just sat, would not move, he had no reaction to food, noise, encouragement, etc.  as a last resort i dropped my judging book behind the dog and it didnt even notice.

I felt as i could not asses the dogs movement, temperament i could not award it a 1st place,
I told the exhibitor why and they fully understood, i saw them at another show and they informed me that they had taken the dog to vets and it had had brain damage.  SO very sad x

>Wonder why judges withhold the first and award the dog a second.

I was thinking it might affect the points needed for a JW or ShCM?

In reply to dollster:

I can fully understand your predicament and you would have been within your rights to ask the handler to remove the dog as it was obviously unwell. The thing is that according to the KC you can only withhold if the exhibit shows lack of merit, not sure if your example showed lack of merit as it did not show anything. Difficult decisions, and it takes courage.

I was thinking it might affect the points needed for a JW or ShCM?

One would think that if the dog shows so little merit it would not be likely to win JW or Sc CM in fact as there needs to be at least 3 in the class for a first place to count towards JW it has no effect. ShCM is won at open shows only and again an exhibit lacking merit is unlikely to be in the running for such an award.

I think it would be a little different now Nova, as the fit for function etc that the judge now has to adere to could be another reason to withold

Actually there is a reminder in this months Gazette and it still says the only reason to withhold is because of lack of merit. If a dog is unwell, lame or aggressive the judge does not have to judge it but can ask for it to be withdrawn (excluding), if a dog is withdrawn because the judge refuses to judge it a report should go to the KC. That is why you will see on occasion people ask if they can withdraw in order to avoid a report going to the KC.

Reasons given for Excluding are
Lameness including hopping (slipping patella)
Inappropriate temperament, refusal to be handled, timidity, aggression.
A discharge from one or both eyes or sign of discomfort in with eye.
Obvious breathing difficulty
Obvious skin or ear irritation
Significantly over or under weight.

In cats we're well used to this. 3rd out of one, CCs withheld etc etc -it happens at each and every show, always. It means even if there is just one entrant in a class, if that is awarded a first you know it is really worth it as withholding is so common. I wish they'd do the same in dogs.

Do cats have different levels of showing like dogs, Limit, Open and Championship?

Yes and no. There are exemption shows (not like in dogs -just smaller shows, more mixed classes, but still same judges and you enter in advance), sanction shows (a dress rehearsal for a champshow -all the same except no certificates) and championship shows. But 99 % of all shows are championships and all fully recognised breeds have certificates available at all champshows.

We had a show the other month nad large majority of dogs showed to slipped knees.  The more they did it the higher they were placed.  The dogs that didn't got thrown out.  Honest.

I thought if a place was withelp no further places were to be given under that placing.  1st given, 2nd given 3rd witheld 4th & 5th not placed due to witheld place.

That is right Sunshine, if the first 3 places are withheld then no awards are given at all.

I was sort of asking why - if the exhibit is of insufficient merit to be placed 1st why is it good enough to be 2nd or 3rd surely if it is not good enough for a 1st it is just not good enough at all but why would it effect others in the class.

Think it would be helpful if the rules were changed and if the exhibit was of insufficient merit then no award is given to it at all so if you have 3 in the class and one is a donkey you withhold from that and give 1st & 2nd to the other two. To withhold a place seems pointless either the dog has type and acceptable conformation or it does not and if it does not it should get no award. So if the class has no animal of merit then there should be no award at all.

Not sure what show your were at that has so many animals with slipping patella but if the judge was sure then they should exclude the exhibit - the trouble is the KC rule implies that the judge must be sure that their decision is clear to both the handler and another judge as there is no appeal, so it is really down to the judge to make a veterinary decision which is not fair. If a dog is lame and you say to the handler you dog is lame and they say yes it has just stood on a stone or a wasp how can the judge know unless they happen to know the dog is always lame.

True, this was the beuty of showing outside, which i understand can highlight the problem.  I had some experienced judges confirming what I was asking and they actually feel for this when they judge.

2 dogs out of 9 didn't show it.  This is what comes of putting popular faces through lol.

Sunshine the fact is this problem is so common in some breeds (small terriers in particular) that the judges have become used to seeing it and they may not even notice. It is a bad state of affairs and it needs the breed clubs to start to tackle the problem. This is often caused by the structure of the hind leg being too straight so perhaps there should be a change in the standard to start with if some angulation is called for then slowly the problem may improve.

Hi

Fancy that, it was a terrier man judging, that explains alot.  I think its down to bad breeding that that's creeping through in our breed.  I rarely trust what's classed as a champ without knowing the dog and its breeding.

I didn't realise that terriers still went in the ring with bad knees.  Is it a design fault?

>Wonder why judges withhold the first and award the dog a second.

At a champ show, I would assume that this is around stud book qualifying places?

M.

They changed our breed standard in the early days to say a slight but definite bend at stifle and hock, where ti said straight before, as that would be a basic design fault. 

The current fashion in so many breeds for over angulation in the rear is just as bad, moderation in all things.

I do wish that judges who withold in the UK would be required to there and then explain to the exhibitor why and also submit a written report to the KC and a copy to go to the exhibitor.  It has happend recently in our breed to dogs that on previous occassions have won and placed at Ch shows under other "breed specialist" judges and in the past had very good critiques.  On the witheld occassion it was so upsetting to the parties involved that they are considering giving up showing (3 dif dogs and unconnected owner / exhibitors).  No reason has been given by the judge either to the exhibitors nor in the critique.  How can anyone learn from this?  Yes the dogs have faults, but no worse than (in this case) the judges own stock who have some terrible breed failings, seems like it was sour grapes.

On the other hand at 2 FCI shows in the past month judges have dq'd dogs for lameness, temperament (refusal / extreme relucatance to be handled - 2 good chances then out), and snapping at the judge.  In all cases (several in dif breeds) the judge though the dq is instant has taken the time to talk to the exhibitor and explain why they have made that decision.

moderation in all things. Now where have I heard that before ;-)

Harkback, think the difference is that in the case of Exclusion the judge is obliged to tell the exhibitor why and a report has to go to the KC but in the case of withholding it is a matter of the judges perception of the merit of the exhibit so it can't be challenged but the exhibit can ask for an explanation after judging has finished and indeed I would encourage them to do so but to remember it is just that judges opinion and is not that different from being unplaced.

> That is right Sunshine, if the first 3 places are withheld then no awards are given at all.

Just to clarify if the 1st 3 places are witheld then no other dog should get a placing? Maybe Higham is incorrect but I noticed a puppy in a certain breed was placed 4th with 1st-3rd witheld.

LOL :D

Suejay - correct
Higham Press - wrong

I fairness to Higham Press they were probably reporting what the judge had done. It stands to reason as the 4th place is called reserve one cannot be reserve to nothing - so no 3rd place then no reserve either.

I know the difference between exclusion and witholding - I am a judge at CC level, and judge internationally, have done since the early 1980's.  However when dogs that have consistently won over the past 12 months under noted breed specialists are suddenly witheld from and no reason given the exhibitor and breeder (in one case a breeder of over 35 years with worldwide respect) are clueless as to why.  With cost of entering a Ch show it is only fair in return the reason is given.  Has these dog's conformation altered so suddenly that in the space of 1 month it was gone from hero to zero?  The animals in question were not lame, no testicles missing, bites correct as it always has been, sound.  Are all well within the breed standard, all dogs have their faults but these are no worse that the winners, one of whom was lame.  How are people new to the breed supposed to learn from their peers if no one has a clue as to why these were witheld on?  How are people supposed to move forward in breeding if they are not told what faults to correct - obviously here 99.9% of judges have completely missed something in several animals that one person has flagged as cause for concern enough to withold on.  I have no connection to any of the owners / breeders / handlers in this case by the way.

I was trying to point out that the KC does not ask the judge to give a reason for withholding but they do for exclusion, not doubting or questioning what you know just giving a reason for why nothing was said for anyone who may be interested. Still think it is easy enough to ask if you wish to know.

>> That is right Sunshine, if the first 3 places are withheld then no awards are given at all.
> Just to clarify if the 1st 3 places are witheld then no other dog should get a placing? Maybe Higham is incorrect but I noticed a puppy in a certain breed was placed 4th with 1st-3rd witheld.

I do know that a friends placing was recording on Highams as something similar and she still got the RCC - it was a typo but I'm not sure that it was ever corrected and she hadn't even seen the results on line until I asked her how she managed such an achievement!!!!

It does make me question some results I see now though. 

OK, not saying this is what happened but it could. There is a single dog entered in Limit and another in Open there are no other entries. The Limit dog has any placing withheld the one in Open gets a first.

The judge is obliged (from the exhibits available) to select a BOB (CC) and a Reserve BOB (RCC) so in the above case the winner of open would get the CC and the exhibit from Limit the RCC as principal awards cant be withheld if only one exhibit is present then it has to be the best there. [not sure this is right when it comes to CCs as the judge has to sign to say the exhibit is of Championship quality so CCs may be different to BOB, will look and come back to you]

As to the results they are heavily impregnated by possible human error, the judge makes a decision and writes down the number the handler is wearing (should be right but mistakes are made) the steward sends the slip to the office and it is relayed to the operator of the PC connected to the printers server. Errors can occur anywhere along the way so if there is an error telling the printer or the secretary is the best answer.

Yes, I am wrong it seems that a judge must find a best of sex and reserve best of sex but can withhold the CC & RCC if they consider the best lack merit

Witheld count also mean no stud book.  This has happened in our breed before when it was 1-3 in open got the stud book.

I am sure that the BOB has to be declared but CCs do not have to be given. It has happened before. 

OPPS just noticed you added it to the bottom.

Witheld count also mean no stud book.  This has happened in our breed before when it was 1-3 in open got the stud book.

That would make sense but it would seem that most of the time it is the lower classes that are effected with awards being withheld. I must say I would be very worried if the Limit and Open classes could not manage a few exhibits that were of sufficient merit to be placed, in my breed only 1st and 2nd in Open get stud book numbers so it is not asking much to have two in the Open class that are of good type. Do know that in some breeds there are more chances to get a SBN but that is because the breed is more numerous so that still seems a little unlikely but if it is the case extremely worrying as either the breeders or the judges are missing the point somewhere all that is required is a fit dog of type.

If you do withold, you still have to declare a BOB

That is so as I said earlier you have to declare BOB, RBOB or PB if you have the numbers because even if they are camels they are the best if it is all you have. But if you exclude you do not judge and have no need to declare BOB

> If you do withold, you still have to declare a BOB

Not so.

I can't remember the rule number but if you look at the guide to judges at http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/488/guidejudges.pdf it states

"Where a breed is separately classified a Best of Breed must be declared from those dogs which have received a first prize in a breed class at the show"

Just tagging on the end.

I read a critique recently where the judge awarded first and second but withheld 3rd place as the dog was not good enough for Crufts qualification- I can't remember if it was given reserve or not (only 3 in class), but another reason for withholding

"Where a breed is separately classified a Best of Breed must be declared from those dogs which have received a first prize in a breed class at the show" You are right, shows how useful this forum is I had always been told a BOB must be declared if there is a dog entered, just shows that is not right according to the Year Book. Hope it never happens to me and I won't have to decide what to do, logic tells you that if only one dog is present it is BOB and that is what my tutor told me but that would appear to be untrue.

I read a critique recently where the judge awarded first and second but withheld 3rd place as the dog was not good enough for Crufts qualification- I can't remember if it was given reserve or not (only 3 in class), but another reason for withholding

Sure on this one as have just checked it, the only reason for withholding is lack of merit, nothing to do with Crufts at all just a case of if the dog on that day has enough type and quality to be awarded a place. 

Can't find the critique now but it definitely said about Crufts Qualification - I remember thinking it was odd and I hadn't seen it before - gave the impression that the dog was not quality enough to be given a placing that would qualify it for crufts..

Don't doubt you Dakkobear, judges make mistakes and withhold for sillyer reasons than qualification for Crufts. To feel, as a judge, that an exhibit was not of championship show quality amounts to thinking it had lack of merit but that is what should be said as that is only reason permitted, that of lack of merit. I asked one of our judges why they had withheld and was told the exhibit was too young.

Hi all, my dog has a white mask, she's an American Akita, I believe this is classed s a fault in our breed, could this cause a judge at ch show to withhold a 1st 2nd or 3rd?
Jess x

> Hi all, my dog has a white mask, she's an American Akita, I believe this is classed s a fault in our breed

I see you're in Ireland, the FCI standard for an American Akita says nothing about a white mask, it says "Colours are brilliant and clear, and markings are well
balanced, with or without mask or blaze." I would suggest that a white mask is a blaze, it shouldn't matter :-)

In the UK the akita standard says nothing about a white mask either, but in the American Kennel Club site white mask is listed under acceptable markings.

Thank you so much, actually I'm in the UK, no idea why it says Ireland on here, but her markings are clear, white and fawn, so we should be fine.
Jess :)