I have another question again,

Not really thought about it before but have a schedule in front of me and just wondered what NOT judged on group system means? I know what judging on the group system but wondered when they are not what changes and differences you have.

It means that there is not a contest for the BOB winners of each group before the BIS challenge. So for BIS instead of having just 7 dogs in the ring you will have all the BOBs that have bothered to stay. Does not make much difference to the exhibitor although most prefer the show that is judged on the group system.

I definitely prefer the group system but as you say it doesn't really make a difference :) 

A big difference  is you could end up with a BIS and a Reserve BIS both from the same breed group.

I only went to one show judged on this system.  NEVER AGAIN!

I hadn't noticed that it was a different judging system and had entered a pup.  Pups were judged after the adults so many of the pups were tired before they got in the ring.  Also many of the beaten pups ended up in the BPIS ring - I don't understand why and several complaints were made but nothing changed.   It was the longest and most crowded show I have ever been to.  Not an experience I'd care to repeat despite pup going RBIS.  

I wd think the pupsnwere beaten by dogs who weren't pups and that is the only way that they can be,say if there was no puppy class and htey were beaten in tghe junior one.

I prefer the one where there is no group judgin which is the norm in the north west or has been for the 20 odd years that I've shown.

Thanks Nova.. > So for BIS instead of having just 7 dogs in the ring you will have all the BOBs that have bothered to stay

Should be interesting then :-)

Best Puppy in show is & has to be judged after Best in Show it's the rules, no matter which way(group system or non group).

>I wd think the pupsnwere beaten by dogs who weren't pups and that is the only way that they can be,say if there >was no puppy class and htey were beaten in tghe junior one.

That's what I thought, but apparently it wasn't the case at this show :(   there were several very disgruntled people ;)

Personally, I prefer the group system - you have some idea of when pups will be on - usually before the adults of the breed.  That way they don't get bored and over tired.   :)

The other main difference is any unbeaten dog can challenge for BIS, including those that did not go in breed or NSC classes like AV veteran or for that matter AV Hound (or other group class) or AV champion.

That is true but I believe that if there are suitable classes they have to go into them rather than AV classes and in most if not all cases a show that is not judged on the Group system will classified either AVNSC for each group or just AVNSC.

AVNSC classes are only open to those for whom there is no breed class available but are treated otherwise as if they at breed classes, so everyone at the show should have either entered a breed class or AVNSC class and then won BOB or Best NSC in order to be able to go into the BIS ring. This does not apply to puppies or Veterans who may if they wish progress to BIS or BPIS via the AV classes.

Looking through the Red book it does not seem a rule that AVNSC is provided but I don't think I have ever come across a schedule for a show not judged on the group system that did not have at least one AVNSC class but there may be some, would be very difficult to police I would think but as we always classify all breeds I have never had to deal with a free for all.

I vastly prefer Group system, you have between 7 and 10 dogs competing for 4 places instead of nearly 30 dogs competing for 2 places! And you don't have an hour long class!

> I vastly prefer Group system, you have between 7 and 10 dogs competing for 4 places instead of nearly 30 dogs competing for 2 places! And you don't have an hour long class!

Hear hear!