i have had someone ask if they can use our boy ,we have gone though everything and they make a very good match infact ive asked her for pick of litter instead of stud fee! weve never done this before and im not sure how to go about this ,as she wants the reg number and all paper work from us before the pups will go ( she is going to need to reg the pups before going!)
my worry is she could back out once pups are 8weeks old and sell them all ,what can we do to stop this happening?

thanks x

I would say a contract outlining your agreement that you both sign would be a good idea.  That way you both have something in writing and not just a verbal agreement.

very true! i am going to that but would that stand up in court if she backs out? because i allways ask new owners to sign contract before having a pup from us saying pup must come back here if rehoming and that dont stand up in court and thats my worry x

Draw up a stud agreement  saying that Dog XXXXX has been mated to bitch XXXXX with a fee of pick of litter puppy. Make sure you cover all eventualities - what if the bitch misses? What if one or no puppies survive? What if you don't want any of the puppies for whatever reason? Etc etc.

You would, of course, give her the signed registration form saying that the mating had taken place, with your dog's registration number on it, after the mating has happened.

Honestly? I'd take a stud fee and tell her that you are very interested in a puppy and could she put you as high on her list as possible. (I would be expecting second pick at best, or pick of dogs/bitches depending on what she is keeping herself?)

At least that way there are no issues if you don't get the pup you want, or pups aren't suitable for your needs/not healthy/not properly reared. Regarding paperwork, surely it wouldn't be a desperate issue for pups to be sold with "KC reg, papers to follow" written on the receipt.

M.

What if there is only one puppy and its not what you want?

Not from a stud point of view, but I did look at a stud where the owner wanted pick of dog (I was keeping a girl), and while I was happy with this, I preferred to pay a fee and they buy a puppy (given first pick).  It made more sense as there are so many things that can complicate it.  What if there is just one pup, what if there aren't enough of the sex, what if the pick is one you want to keep and the breeder wants also....ect. 

> Not from a stud point of view, but I did look at a stud where the owner wanted pick of dog (I was keeping a girl), and while I was happy with this, I preferred to pay a fee and they buy a puppy (given first pick).  It made more sense as there are so many things that can complicate it.  What if there is just one pup, what if there aren't enough of the sex, what if the pick is one you want to keep and the breeder wants also....ect. 

My post is actually more from the breeder's point of view too, Jen (not owning any studs any more!) - I want the pick of the occasional litters I have, and no way would I be handing over pick to anyone else, even if it was the opposite to what I had planned to keep. My pups, my choice LOL.

M.

When I have had stud owners wanting a pup instead of a fee, it's always been SECOND choice. No way on earth would I give anyone FIRST pick -that's mine!

i agree about having 2nd choice ,i know i wouldnt get 1st ,but after reading all this im taking fee and will go and look at the litter when 4weeks old ,ive just rang her and she said no problem ,she wants to keep a boy and i want a girl so i will get 1st pick of the girls ,she has a waiting list and most want boys and the ones that want girls are for pet homes anyway so we are both happy now ....thanks guys :) x

sounds like you've got it all worked out.  As others have said many of my breed friends with studs will charge the fee and if they want a pup they will buy it.  (usually 2nd pick or 1st pick of opposite sex to what the breeder plans to keep).  It's worked well for them and everyone's been happy so far.

Also more commonly an option a few people are now using is a nominal fee paid at time of mating plus an additional fee per live puppy paid after 6 weeks.  Personally I quite like this arrangement and I think is more fair for all parties, but that's just my opinion.  If my bitch has less puppies I don't lose so much, if she has more yes it costs me more, but then the stud owner has some benefit too. 

I agree, if they are breeding for themselves I would expect them to want the pick of their prefered sex and you can buy second pick or first choice of the other sex.  If none of the pups are what you hoped you still have your stud fee.

I have for the first time given a puppy in lieu of stud fee, but that was to a good friend who wanted a nice pup from their boy, and I already had two daughters from the bitch from her first two litters, so was happy for them to have choice from her last.

> I want the pick of the occasional litters I have, and no way would I be handing over pick to anyone else, even if it was the opposite to what I had planned to keep. My pups, my choice LOL.
>

Too blooming right!  :-)

Yes I agree as breeder there's no way I'd give anyone 'pick' of litter, even if I wanted a dog and they wanted a bitch as when they're born I would want to be able to change my mind!  I have discussed once having a pup as 'payment' but I was only prepared to offer 'second choice' of pups.  For other reasons I didn't use this dog, but would never have agreed to giving them pick of litter.  I've seen many breeders exasperated as stud dog owner couldn't make up their mind over which if any pup.  I've also seen breeder pulled out of using a stud dog cos they wanted a pup and the breeder wouldn't have sold them one (neither would I mind!) so they chose another dog! 

> When I have had stud owners wanting a pup instead of a fee, it's always been SECOND choice. No way on earth would I give anyone FIRST pick -that's mine!

Absolutely.. wouldn't dream of insisting on the pick of the litter...

Let breeder take as long as they like (within reason) then take your pick...

You don't sound like you trust this person very much?  Sure you're happy for them to use your dog?

On a similar note... do people equate the stud fee with the value of a pup?  I imagine it varies especially for high value breeds?  In my breed, the average cost of a pup is about £150 - £200 more than the average stud fee...

> On a similar note... do people equate the stud fee with the value of a pup?  I imagine it varies especially for high value breeds?  In my breed, the average cost of a pup is about £150 - £200 more than the average stud fee...

I don't know if it's because litters are so small, but stud fee in my tiny breed is usually £200-250 and pup prices from around £700.  I suppose that, as it's a breed that often only has one pup, it is relevant.

> On a similar note... do people equate the stud fee with the value of a pup?  I imagine it varies especially for high value breeds?  In my breed, the average cost of a pup is about £150 - £200 more than the average stud fee...

Stud fee is the price of a puppy in our breed (average 6 pups), but then even a well used dog is unlikely to sire much more than half a dozen litters in a lifetime.

Stud fee in our breed is half the puppy price and sometimes a bit less than half.

It varies, but in my small breed stud fee for show champion is about £250, pups now I see on epupz up to £900!  But my experience so far is a litter of 2 and of 1 (sadly we lost one or it would have been 2 again) so whilst they can have 6 or 7 they often don't.  With my medium breed the fee is about £400+ and the pups can be £300-800 - with litters of 7 and 6 (although I didn't pay a stud fee), with my big breed I've paid £500 and £450 with pups sold for £500 and £550 - but she had 7 and 9 pups.  Penny

Except in breeds that have normally less than 4 pups it would seem reasonable to have the stud fee as the price of a puppy.

In some countries they officially advise price of puppy or per puppy system with a nominal mating fee.

The breeder whose dog I used in Finalnd normally charged EUR100 and then EUR100 per puppy that lives to two weeks of age.  I paid her the puppy price we have in UK which was £600 on the basis that having put us up for a week she was entuitled to teh fee for her trouble regardless.  I think at the time it came to EUR1000, on their system I would have paid EUR800, as we got 7 pups.

Stud fee in my breed is about half to three quarters puppy price.

> £400+ and the pups can be £300-800 - with litters of 7 and 6 (although I didn't pay a stud fee), with my big breed I've paid £500 and £450 with pups sold for £500 and £550

We pay somewhere around this and not always many pups.  If pup offered it can be equivilent to £600/700.

In my breed, the stud fee is usually the price of a correctly marked puppy and litter average size is probably around 8 or 9. My own average litter size has been 9 but a certain percentage will be mismarked and they generally are sold for less.