Hi
just wondered what the right thing to do about this situation is here goes my toy breed had a litter of 5  on 22nd march  all went very well mum and pups all well pups all went to very good homes mum is back to pre pup condition. l want to have another litter as have allready got people linned up for pups who missed out last time. so  she has come into season last week  do l mate her now or wait for another 6 months . l asked thevet she seemed to think it was ok as bitch in such good condition  but lam not sure can anyone help  thanks jloub

Personally I would leave at least a year between litters. If you over breed them they can face numerous health issues. However I am not an experienced breeder. I am studying veterinary science and have always been told every 1yr to 2years depending on breed so I am shocked that your vet advised breeding again. I think that a breeders opinion counts more than a vets where breeding is concerned.

I would deffinately say wait until next time, especially as there was 5 in the last litter.

A small dog ... a large litter for a small dog .... leave it until next time.

Definately too soon, her last litter was born only five and a half months ago!

"Hi
just wondered what the right thing to do about this situation is here goes my toy breed had a litter of 5  on 22nd march  all went very well mum and pups all well pups all went to very good homes mum is back to pre pup condition. l want to have another litter as have allready got people linned up for pups who missed out last time. so  she has come into season last week  do l mate her now or wait for another 6 months . l asked thevet she seemed to think it was ok as bitch in such good condition  but lam not sure can anyone help  thanks jloub"

Sorry, jloub, but I don't think that's a good enough reason to have a litter at all, and it certainly isn't justification for breeding on consecutive seasons :(

I asked thevet she seemed to think it was ok as bitch in such good condition 

Yep, yet another vet out there really on the ball about breeding!

l am not sure

You've got it right. Give her a break and wait :)

i totally agree with everyone, i never have and never will do a back to back mating as i feel its unfair on the bitch, and having her mated again after a good sized litter for a toy breed just because some people missed out last time is NO reason to go ahead. You say mum is back to pre-pup condition, but internally you have no idea.....her body needs time to rest and get back to full fitness, not to mention giving your girl a break from maternal duties.

Many vets dont have the first clue about that side of things and you are far better listening to the advice of experienced breeders. IMO

> l want to have another litter as have allready got people linned up for pups who missed out last time.

Is that the only reason you want a litter? Surely the reason to breed is to not only improve on what you already have but to do it because you want a pup. To breed purely for others, well sorry it leaves a bad taste in my mouth and regardless of breed I don't agree with back to back matings within the same year.

A definite NO from me. If you have people waiting and they are decent people who want to have one from your health tested lines then they will wait. I think it is unfair on the bitch. I do not have toys so I am sure that someone knowledgeable with them will comment.

It was Vivaldi, not 'Bach' that composed 'The four seasons'..... ;-)

(Appologies! couldn't resist a good opportunity for a bad joke :-) )

PMSL.... :-D

I would never dream of mating any of mine after a litter of more than one puppy unless there had been a clear season between, so usually about a year - 18 months.

There is absolutely no reason to breed from her this soon, and a litter of this size for a toy breed where pups relative to adult size are pretty large would be more of a strain than for a larger breed with same number of puppies.

For example 5 x 5oz pups is a larger litter for a small size bitch than 5 x 12oz pups for a bitch of my breed weighing 20kg.

Also with pups barely 6 months old you can't really be sure how well the last litter have turned out before deciding where to take your breeding next time, do you use a dog of similar lines to before or take a completely different direction.  Each litter should be a learning opportunity.

Just my honest opinion as a breeder of toys.

NO!  I am shocked that you don't know that it is puppy farmer practise.  :-(

My breed has 1-3 pups average, and a bitch that had my best ever litter was my reason for breeding again.  To improve my lines (which will be every genuine breeders intention.)  She had 2 pups, and I rested her on her next season, and she was vet checked a year later to assess her condition for a second litter.  This is a bitch that carries 2 puppies.  If she had 5 puppies, I wouldn't even be contemplating a litter a year later.  I would probably feel differently if I had a large breed.

I agree with others that vet advice is no good when it comes to breeding.  They don't have a clue.  But then, I don't actually know a vet that breeds.  Assuming that your bitch is health tested and KC registered, you should already know that you don't register litters at 6 monthly intervals.  I fully appreciate that this forum is for novice breeders to gain knowledge, and ask for advice.  But this is something that you should have found out before the first litter was born.

Rest your girl for a year and give her insides time to have a break.  Then if you feel that you want to risk another big litter, then get your vet to look her over next year.  I will say though, if she had another litter the same size, I feel that 10 pups is more than ample to expect out of a toy size bitch, and would have her spayed.  Or you are just exploiting her.

I do think that the fact you say "I am not sure" is promising!  At least you didn't take your vets word as gospel.  So Good Luck - but give her a break!  :-)

What was the reason for the first litter -if I read it right all pups were sold and none kept? If the reason was just to sell pups, then don't wait until next season -have her spayed before then. 5 is a big litter for a toybreed and the only good reason to breed is to  want to improve a breed. I have one large breed and one toy breed and I quickly learnt that whereas with my large breed I start a waiting list about a year before I mate a bitch, as I can end up with so many puppies needing good homes, with toy bitches I don't even mention the bitch has been mated. I breed for ME, for the breed, and if there is any pup left over when I've had my pick, and often the stud owner as well, then I will start looking for a home or homes at that point. With most toybreeds (other than possibly the largest one) needing to stay until 12-14 weeks of age anyway before being sold, there is plenty of time to find those homes. No point building people's hopes up with toys. And absolutely no reason to have another litter just because buyers missed out -direct them towards another breeder instead. That's what all good breeders do -if there aren't enough pups, put the buyers in touch with other breeders you know.

> -direct them towards another breeder instead. That's what all good breeders do -if there aren't enough pups, put the buyers in touch with other breeders you know.

and they will do the same for you when you do have puppies again. 

This helps ensure that potential owners go to decent breeders and not into the arms of puppy farmers, and the breed and individual owners and puppies benefit.

Shocked that you are even thinking about it. For a small breed that was a big litter.  I would wait at least until next time.

Ditto the others - vet is an idiot, you should leave at least one season between litters.

What was the point of the last litter and what is the reason for having another jloubs ?  To sell puppies?  That is the only thing that you mention.  Is there another reason that you've omitted?
I may consider a second litter on the next season if the bitch lost the previous litter or only produced one or possibly two puppies - my breed is medium size.  Othewise I'd definitely leave it longer.
Unless they are personally involved with breeding, Vets rarely have much knowledge about it.  My experience is that they tend to encourage novice breeders.  I sometimes wonder if that's because it could be good for business - but then I'm cynical! ;)

Did you not get the quality of puppy in the sex your were planning on keeping, or were they all the same sex (unlucky in such a large litter but it happens). 

If for nothing else you would be best to wait longer to see how the puppies turned out so as you have more chance of getting the puppy you hoped for next time, this may result in a change of sires lines.

You will need to decide what faults the sire or bitch passed on and how to rectify/lessen the chance of this next time.

A definite no if you ever want to be a member of Champdogs

"We reserve the right to refuse or terminate membership of any breeder having two litters from the same bitch within an 11 month period"

http://www.champdogs.co.uk/html/conditions.html

So am i right in thinking it's not ok for a small breed to have 2 litters in one year even if the bitch only had 1 pup on the 1st litter ................... but its ok for a large breed to have 2 litters in a 12 month period if she only produced one pup in the 1st litter .

Does it not depend on how far about the bitch's seasons are , some can be as close as every four months , which would mean a mating in January , pup born in march a clear season in  July , mated again Dec .

I can say the above as thats what happened with my bitch , apart from the fact i have not mated her again, but on her vet check , he actually asked me if i would be mating her again on her very next season after she had her pup , to which i said i need time to recover never mind my dog lol........ does it all depend on what breed you have , mine is a giant breed if that helps with the answers .

So the above  would mean the matings would have taken place within a 12 month period  or approx a 12 month period , is that wrong in the kc's eyes & champdogs or have i misunderstood things as usual lol :0)

I may be wrong but I am sure at one time the KC would not register a litter born within a year of the last one, is my memory letting me down or have things changed. Sure if you have a second litter from the same bitch within 12 months you had to have a letter from a vet advising it was for the health of the bitch otherwise no registration - am I dreaming?

Q. My bitch has had 2 litters within a 12 month period, can I register the litter?

A.  The Kennel Club does not endorse this and would recommend at least a year is given between litters, however we do understand that in situations of accidents or if a bitch has irregular seasons, a second application will be accepted. Breeders who breed four or more litters per year must be licensed by their local authority. Breeders with fewer litters must also be licensed if they are carrying out a business of breeding dogs for sale.

Found this on the kc site nova . I guess i should have looked for the answer before i posted lol . sorry

same for me here lol im sure the last time i rang kc and asked about this (becase i was told some1 was haveing 2nd litter within 12months) you can reg any litter at any time as long as bitch is over 1 stud dog any age! you can reg a litter (2 in 12months) from same bitch as long as not a accrediterd breeder.

Licensed breeders also cannot register two litters within one year from the same bitch -although in reality it seems very little is done to check up on that.

> Breeders who breed four or more litters per year must be licensed by their local authority

Where do you find out that information as I know a few people who breed 4 or more in a year. Just wondered if they were licensed, prob not..

2 litters in 12 months, I am still sure this was not always thus, remember a friend having to get a letter from the vet to say that to mate at the first season following a litter was in the best interest of that particular bitch - but memory being what it is perhaps it was the breed club who would not entertain two litters a year from the same bitch.

Fact remains that it is not good practice and would not be a responsible way to treat your bitch to say nothing of the reasons not being viable.

They had to change the rules when bitches were having a litter 363 days after their previous litter! They used to refuse registration within 1 year for all bitches. Not now though.

I wouldn't have thought the bitch would gave recovered from the whelping and rearing of her brood yet.  Her body will be exhausted.

If people want your pups they'll have to wait.  She did well to have a good brood so give her a break, she deserves it.  You never know she might reward you with a good llitter again and give them her all.

Can i ask is it benifitial for the bitch to whelp again on the next season if she lost the litter?  And how does it help if the answers yes?

The biggest strain on a bitch is not pregnancy but rearing a litter, so mating on the following season after a litter is lost is fine as there may be time constraints.  Unlike us or some other species a birth has a limited number of occasions when she can be bred from, especially if inter season intervals are long.

Just as an example my Myka had her litter as early as is considered ethical in our breed at two years of age.  I waited until her second season after her pups in Dec 2008 which took me to Feb 2010, she missed and I am waiting for her to come in season most likely October with hopefully a litter two years after her first in Dec 2010.

Now had she lost her first litter, and I had waited the same length of time I would have a maiden bitch of nearly four having her first litter, suppose she missed again?

Add in the timing of a litter to fit in with when the breeder can have the time to rear and care for pups etc, it often means one does not want to waste a season if it isn't for the bitches benefit.

Most breeders breed as part of another activity with their dogs, so they are trying to fit breeding opportunities around campaigning a bitch for show (in a coated breed having a litter will basically remove a bitch from the ring for about 9 months) or training and competing in field trials where there is a definite season for shooting.

> Her body will be exhausted.
>

Not in all cases and with a small, normal litter rarely so. Working dogs are back to work as soon as their litter is weaned just like working mums.

I have a case of a bitch missing 3 times then conceiving at 4 years old to produce 2 live pups which were mainly reared by me.
I mated her again 8 months later and she conceived and delivered 4 healthy pups which she reared herself.

A back to back mating done under the expert advice of a fertility specialist...which worked....and for good reason. The concrete thinkers will, no doubt, say no back to back matings but my bitch was mated before she was 5 years old...my cut off age for that breed.

It's now more than 4 litters (don't remember when it changed sorry) - if you breed 5 litters in a year you need a Council license and your premises are subject to an inspection.  They can inspect if you breed fewer but they have concerns. 

Penny,

How would you find out if someone has a license? Is there a way of searching online or is it in a records office somewhere? There are people I know who do seem to have 1 litter after another.

Would have thought their council would tell you if they have and when they were last inspected and the result, well at least they should or not a lot of point in licensing them.

> well at least they should or not a lot of point in licensing them.

Totally agree, but not convinced that it actually happens to be honest Nova.  One well known exhibitor, who has many litters a year, is definitely licensed and told me that they don't get inspected.  (I have to be fair and say that they are always ready for an inspection)

I personally like to leave 18 months between matings - we are a very small kennel and I just like to give my girl a long break between litters. Give her chance to get her body back and have some fun and be a happy go lucky girl again :o) Just my own personal preference though....

I don't think I ahve ever ahd a litter less than 13 - 14 months, often 16 - 18 months after when I have mated on the second season after a litter.

Yes, you'd have to contact the Council environmental health department.  Not sure they'd tell you if they were licensed or not but they'd be the ones to do it, so the only ones to talk to.  Not all premises will be inspected annually - they'll keep track of advertisements and if they think you're ok may not be on your back, but if they have complaints, or lots of adverts and registrations (yes they check KC registrations) then they should inspect.  Not all councils will be good at this unfortunately.  I found a good cattery by asking the environmental health officers - asked for good people and found a perfect place, runs etc not pristine, but my cat was so well looked after it was wonderful - loved and admired and put where she could be in the 'thick of it' as she was there a few weeks :-) 

Penny

Sophie has had two litters, almost exactly 12months apart and she's in perfect health.  She's going to go 24 months approx before she has her last litter.  Dizzy has had 2 litters 12 months apart and will now be spayed.  Lexie has had 2 litters, 17months apart and will have another in about the same time.  Rosie mistakenly had a litter at 18months and is likely to have at least one planned....Just because dogs can have pups every 6 months doesn't mean they have to - it's really to help us plan when...which some people take advantage of :-( in the wild they'd come into season every 12 months.  I pride myself on my bitches coming out of having their pups in pristine condition, which certainly in Sophie's case, takes a tremendous amount of food to keep her from losing weight but I owe it to them as they're giving their all to bring up the pups.  My pups are of good size and weight when they leave home - I've seen some very thin and small pups other folk have bought.  Have to say all the ones I've bought have been the same as the ones I breed, mostly they've come from friends :-) or people who've become friends. 

I know someone who breeds her girl twice a year..one litter is registered with the KC and the 2nd litter is with the Dog Lovers...she had a litter in Dec last year (KC Reg)in June this year she mated her again and had 5 more pups from her (DLR)...she will be mated again at the end of this year and these will be KC Reg.....Im horrified and disgusted by her..her girl is tiny and she struggled with her last litter ..one of the pups died. She has 3 breeding bitches and owns the stud dog. She was trying to persuade me to breed my girl in Nov/Dec this year, she had a litter of 3 in March...shes had a season since the birth and is due again at the end of the year.....IF I decide I want another litter from her it wont be until May/June next year..she goes every 5/6mths, and then only if she passes all her health tests, which I have done every year. She hasnt had one of her dogs tested yet!!!
This is how this person is getting round breeding her girl.

That's shocking, but unfortunately not an isolated case more's the pity.  People like this are just using (and abusing) their poor dogs to make money.  Shame on folk buying them, but they wont know I guess.

Is she part of a breed club as i'm sure they'd be interested to know this? - Sorry this is in answer to ToffeeCrisp

> This is how this person is getting round breeding her girl.

If she is breeding five or more litters in any 12 months she would require a breeding licence from the council and licensed breeders are not allowed to breed from any bitch more often than 12 monthly and are required to keep records.

So it needs someone to prove with adverts and dates that she is breeding at commercial levels, and if she breaks the rules by back to back mating then she can be done.

The rules and laws exist to stop these practices, they aren't enforced , or enforced enough.

Hello
She isnt a member of the breed club and she doesnt have a licence (as far as I know).

I would inform the council and the RASPCA (not that they'll do anything).  The council should though.  I don't know how they do it.

Toffeecrisp - I'd name and shame. Report to Council, KC, trading standards, RSPCA for what it's worth, anyone who might take an interest.

Report her to the Tax office ....or maybe even the benefits office ;)

> The council should though.  I don't know how they do it

The local authority are the only people that are able to take on a prosecution.  Even DEFRA have no powers to do this.  Although the DEFRA vets are brought in as witnesses for the prosecution.

However, the licensed show people that I have spoken to, who legally breed more than 5 litters a year, tell me that they don't even get visits.  Same old, same old.  Cuts in staff, and too few folk to carry out the necessary checks.

I have to be fair here - any animal neglect/cruelty to farm livestock, that is reported to DEFRA, is passed on immediately - the local council is there within 24 hours.  So I can't say that they ever fail in that area.

And the licensed breeders that I have visited, have had pristine conditions, should anyone want to do an unannounced visit.  So it's the same BYB types all the time causing problems IMHO.