Hi,

I have just put one of my bunch in for hip scoring and the vet has just phoned to say he has to be microchipped before it can be done!

Is this a new thing as I have never had it done before!

Thanks

Its something which I thought came about on 01/01/10 either dog had to be microchipped or tattoo'd.

Thanks, I asked about tatooing!

I'm one of those people who really take the health of my loved ones seriously and prefer Natural Rearing for my Border Collies. Because of this I sometimes really find myself at odds with some of the KC and Veterinary guidelines and recommendations..... and having thought long and hard about my dog's health and welfare I don't feel I will be applying for AB status as it currently stands

I feel there has been a lot of damage done to a lot of breeds of dogs and "The Fit For Life Campaign", although most likely a step in the right direction, still feels to me like it's "barking up the wrong tree" in a way....... and that true health needs to be about the "Whole Dog" and not just a sum of its parts

I think as Guardians of our dogs.... we need to make informed decisions.... and not just blindly accept recommendations that could have serious long term health implications.....and actually run contrary to being "Fit For Life" !

http://www.chipmenot.org.uk/news.asp

Not sure what your post has to do with the subject but the reason that a dog has to be properly identified is so the results of the scoring can not be used in a fraudulent manner.

I was going to edit my post to make the link at the bottom a little clearer....but the time has expired.

The website and the link  http://www.chipmenot.org.uk/news.asp  has to do with the danger and long term health effects of microchipping.

I've had dogs living to 15 with chips inside them -no problem. Tattoos vanish and become unreadable too often for my liking -one particular dog lived for about 14 years without his tattoo being visible -it was only readable for a few months after it was done. I've only ever had one whose tattoo remained readable all life and he wasn't tattooed in the UK. A scaremongering website about microchips isn't going to stop me chipping my animals any more than the scaremongering websites about vaccinations put me off them.

Considering that I have around 50 animals at any one time, all chipped, currently ranging from 3 months of age to 17 years, I'd have expected to see some problems if they were common. In fact the only problem I've had was one cat where the chip popped out this year -she'd been chipped for 8 years then and suddenly it just came out. No infection, no abscess, it just came out.

Agree Marianne have contact with 100s of owners and the only problem I have ever heard off is that sometimes they move.

Ditto.

FOS,

Can I ask then how you someone would identify your dogs should they run off and loose their collars? Do you have tattoo's done on them?

If he is ear tattooed then that is fine, but otherwise yes from January they had to have permanent ID to be accepted for any of the BVA/KC health schemes.

.> the only problem I have ever heard off is that sometimes they move.

A friends Dobe bitch had her show career ended due to a chip that had ruptured, possibly from shoulder charging with companions (this woudl not ahve happened if the chip ahd not moved down teh shoulderblade). 

This caused a huge allergic reaction which caused abscessing and then fibrous scar tissue all over one shoulder area so much so it was impeding movement and was disfiguring and had to be cut out.

A Mutual freind of miena dn Nova's had one of her Buhunds doe when the PETS travel scheme first came about and when he was to have his Rabies vaccination they could not scan his chip, various scanners, new batteries etc.  The manufacturers said they would pay for him to be x-rayed and it was found that the chip was still in situ, and eh was re-chipped, opting to leave the dead one in place.

That said all mine are chipped due to Pet Passport requirements.

> Thanks, I asked about tattooing!

The Vets don't tattoo, you would have to go to one of the NDTR http://www.dog-register.co.uk/ tattooists (unless you had a litter that they were coming out to do).

My first two dogs had been raised on "top quality" commercial food, had their vaccinations, constantly at the vet for the slightest thing that worried me, had more than their fair share of antibiotics, are hip scored, microchipped and produced their first litter of puppies who were eye-tested, hearing tested, microchipped, vaccinated and raised onto "top quality" commercial food.

Result....Good hips.... But..... both my boy and my girl needed chiropractic treatment to correct misalignment of their skulls and spines....not so good. My boy was also a "difficult to knock out" dog...and suffered terribly from the anaesthetic...almost to the point of losing him.

Puppies....I lost two from...and no-one will convince me otherwise...adverse reactions to the vaccinations they had (other puppies in the litter who had their vaccinations at their new guardian's vets..were absolutely fine)

Switched overnight to Natural Rearing..... and now have my first generation of unvaccinated, unmicrochipped, chemical free, raw fed, strong and healthy Border Collies. (The only vet they have ever met on a home visit is the holistic vet Christopher Day) They are so totally different somehow. Much more vibrant and alive. They are 10 months old at the minute and soon I will have to make a decision on weather to subject them to an anaesthetic to check their hip-scores...... in light of what happened to my other dogs. 

Obviously distressed I was talking to many people about what had happened to find out that I'm not alone in this...exactly the opposite....I've heard stories that break my heart. Exactly why are so many dogs becoming ill at a young age and needing to go onto lifetime medication..?? Why do SO MANY suffer terrible skin conditions...?? Why are dogs dieing at 3 and 4 years old...??

Something is fundamentally wrong with the way we are approaching their health. Breeders get accused of poor breeding practices and get bad press...but what if the answer lies in over-vaccination of previous generations....heavy-handed use of worming products and flea products....overuse of antibiotics....steroids.....anaesthetics.....poor quality diet....?? The results are surely going to be further generations of weaker animals....??

If we are now being advised to microchip every dog and every puppy that leaves us...then to me this could just be another contributory factor to a lifetime of ill-health.

I don't know what the answer is..... but at a time when their IS an opportunity for change...and a chance to give our animals a voice...through something like "The fit for Life" Campaign..... then I just feel that we ALL should be looking at the bigger picture of animal health..... and being very cautious of what we subject our animals to....if we do truly want them to be.... Fit For Life :)

Sorry not meaning to be rude but what does all that have to do with the fact that you now have to identify a dog in order to have it health tested, nothing what so ever as far as I can see.

Just because you wish to take what I would see as a fundamentally irresponsible attitude towards your own dogs has nothing to do with others health testing. You tell one story I have had dogs for over 60 years and could tell another but that would have nothing to do with the subject either, if you want to push your ideas perhaps you should start your own thread.

You can ear tattoo for ID (nothing inside the body,a nd you can find vets who will hip score without GA, though of course sedatives are still chemicals.  Many years ago a friend had her very placid bitch done by simply lying her down in the correct position holding her head while the owner wore lead apron, (result a total score of 8 in a breed where mean is 14) maybe your holistic vet would do this?.

I don't believe any good breeder does not take the whole dog into account when deciding whether and what to breed to.

Especially in breeds like yours where there may be multiple tests and results you may need to use a dog that is a carrier of some conditions, clear for others, and if not currently affecting them even affected by some other conditions where DNA tests exist. 

Where DNA tests for simple recessive conditions exist, any dog can safely (producing no affected offspring) be used for breeding if mated to the right clear partner.

I can't remember if the chip identifies only the owner? If someone owns  a number of dogs of the same breed, what would prevent them using a better dog (in the owners opinion) for scoring, as opposed to the 1 for whom they really want the score?  Is there any check by KC that AB's actually deserve accreditation? I would have thought impossible to police and exorbitantly expensive if it were possible.   Is quite a few years since microchip put into mine,and thought it was just my name and address on the records.  The bitch I have is tattooed,and that number is surely unique to her, and therefore, could not be used in fraudulent manner.  I have not bred,so don't understand how this works. 

The dogs microchip no gets put on KC records,a nd when you Chip your dog it's name is given, though with some it would be the pet name unless you make sure to do the paperwork yourself and put registered name.

I have this discussion with the vets all the time that I want the dogs registered names, after all when they are supposed to send details of any operations, or get copies of Hip Score results and Eye tests they have no idea which dog they refer to.

> The dogs microchip no gets put on KC records

They can be, I had my eldest chipped and then sent off the forms to put the KC reg into my name and added the chip number onto it - well I'm sure I did as i'm sat here at work thinking about it.

Vet filled out the paperwork and would only have used pet names.  Is tattooing alone no longer acceptable?  Is it not a more reliable identification of the dog?    This is still microchip related but not sure if should post on here,but, here goes; has anyone had a dog who has bled when chip was inserted. Mine were done by vet and seemed unaware of it,but,saw dog chipped at ring craft which bled on insertion.  Thanks for the response Brainless, and for all your other posts. Always good, informative responses.

Tattoo alone is fine.

My Lexi was chipped at 12 weeks and bled profusely,  Inka was done at same time as tattooing at 7 weeks and didn't even notice, the rest were done as adults, some wimped a bit.

This sounds bit like me. Did I,didn,t I do whatever?  Think could do with brain transplant at times!  Am using CD as brain therapy! No joke.

On a slightly different tangent I recently had a bitch eye tested by a panelist took along her paperwork only to be told her chip wasn't the same number as the number on her paperwork. Which was added to her paperwork when I transfered her ownership to me. (I wasnt responsible for having her chipped or supplying the number to the KC). Was asked if I was sure I had the right bitch for the paperwork (I did). She passed and I was issued the certificate but came home worried and puzzled as to why the numbers were different. Contacted petlog and discovered that the microchip number on her paperwork was supposed to be for a chip implanted in a black Labrador called Haley. My bitch is definitely a black and white Border Collie so contacted the Kennel Club  who promptly changed the number on their records however the said eyetest has not appeared on my bitches health records so far and I am wondering if I will have this problem everytime she is tested from now on as her papers will still carry the wrong number unless I pay for replacements. Not that expensive I know but why me  LOL

Yes, it is new to have them chipped before hip scoring. It is to stop people taking the same dog with a good hip score with another ones pedigree. I do not and would not have a hip score only under sedation. As a hip score is only for our benefit, not there's. I also believe that it is the whole dog that matters. As I have said many times it is no good having a 0-0 hip score with a dog with a bad temperament..

Have you been in touch with the person from whom you obtained the dog?

Yes I am good friends with them they couldnt shed any light on how it had happened either. They dont have any black labs.

I was gobsmacked when I discovered the reasoning behind the microchipping rule! I would never have thought about people swapping dogs about.....

I had my boy chipped, not happy, but intend to have his sister tatooed before she is xrayed.

Denese....do you have your bunch put under an anaesthetic for hip scoring if you don't agree with sedation?

Denese....do you have your bunch put under an anaesthetic for hip scoring if you don't agree with sedation?


I read it that she did not score at all - bit puzzled as surely all Denese's dogs can't have poor temperaments and scoring helps the breeder get a view of the way their line is going, results of hip scores should be taken as a whole when checking on what a dam or studs is likely to throw so scoring as many as possible it the best way to proceed although if more than one dog has a poor temperament then perhaps that line should not be used at all for breeding.

I read it that she won't hipscore.  I totally agree that hips are just one thing and it's the whole dog that should be looked into, but that's no excuse to not do it at all.

Sorry if I have read it wrong though.

I totally agree that hips are just one thing and it's the whole dog that should be looked into

Too true, and in a better world all siblings would be scored so the breeder would know what that pair produced as an average, hip scores should not be read one dog at a time you need to assess the breed and a particular brood bitch or stud by the results of what is being produced on average. If your breeding pair both have scores well above the breed average then you would want far more than good temperament before you even considered breeding them. In so much as the hip score is not everything neither is temperament or coat colour they are just matters taken into consideration when you are deciding on which animals you are breeding from.

I do not.... and would not have a hip score........ only under sedation.

I read it that Denese will only subject her dogs to a hipscore under sedation...and would be against subjecting them to a hipscore under general anaesthetic....??

Hip-scoring is actually a rather brutal procedure anyway...where the legs and hips are put into a totally unnatural position under a GA. The dog cannot cry out in pain at the assault to its skeletal and musculature connections.....and problems of stiffness, gait and movement can arise....after..... the procedure even though the hip score is good.

I imagine that the skill....or lack of skill (in the case of my own boy and girl)....of the radiographer can make a difference..... but nevertheless I am extremely wary of subjecting my....thus far.... chemical and drug free 10 month olds to a GA. Sedation and Tattooing may be the answer...I'm not sure at this stage.... and I'd be interested in other people's experience of sedation as opposed to GA.

When you add to that the fact that Border Collies (I have no experience of any other breed) can be made seriously ill or even die from the effects of IVERMECTIN...commonly found in flea control products, shampoos and wormers...then it seems sensible to me to limit MY dogs exposure to as many chemicals as possible....General Anaesthetic being one of them. Through research...the mechanism has been located that allows IVERMECTIN to cross the blood-brain barrier in Border Collies...and although further research is needed...already certain anaesthetics are being implicated.... in that they too may cross the blood-brain barrier..(Is this one of the contributory factors as to why we are seeing a rise in epilepsy in the Border Collie....and many other breeds of dogs..??)

As a proponent of Natural Rearing I seek to minimise my own dog's exposure to chemicals/drugs/toxins in order to foster wellness in both themselves... and any subsequent offspring

I think its the way Denese has written it. I was trying to fathom that out, as to whether she doesn't do it or if she does she does it under GA and not sedation. Who knows.
Maybe when she comes back on she can explain as I think there needs to be some comma's in her sentence..lol..

> When you add to that the fact that Border Collies (I have no experience of any other breed) can be made seriously ill or even die from the effects of IVERMECTIN

Freedom of Spirit, you can have a very simple DNA test done to see if your dogs have the mutant MDR1 gene, takes all the worry away if they don't :-) The test only requires a cheek swab and you can send it off yourself.

http://www.laboklin.co.uk/laboklin/showGeneticTest.jsp?testID=8032

Sedation is supposed to be worse than GA though if a dog has a reaction to it or so I've been told.  Don't know whether it's true.  I'm trying to decide which way to go with my youngest but I have decided that I will be taking her to someone who specialises in taking films for hipscoring with her.

> Sedation is supposed to be worse than GA though if a dog has a reaction to it or so I've been told.

That's exactly the reason my Vet will only do the x-rays under GA. He said it was much easier to reverse a GA.

>That's exactly the reason my Vet will only do the x-rays under GA. He said it was much easier to reverse a GA.

I really don't understand this; it takes an animal much, much longer to come round from a GA than it does sedation.

The reason why sedation is considered more of a risk than GA is there was no way to reverse sedation - I believe this is no longer the case but I am not sure it could just be that fewer dogs have a poor reaction to the drug now used to sedate. The length of time is not important it is being able to reverse the condition should the need arise. Personally I will go with what the vet suggests in any given situation dependent on the dog being treated and what for. I think there was a time when the HD panel would only accept the plates done with the dog under GA but that may have changed.

>I believe this is no longer the case

You're right - there have been sedative reversal drugs for nearly 20 years (all the time they've been doing BAER testing!), so I don't see why this myth is still going on.

All mine are tattooed as puppies, though ahve had my first doen as an adult.

Have had a number Hip X-rayed by an Orthopaedic vet under sedation no problems at all.

The sedative was light enough to have them amenable to gentle positioning (I was with the first one) and teh dogs were able to walk (stagger a bit) to the car after.

You're right - there have been sedative reversal drugs for nearly 20 years (all the time they've been doing BAER testing!), so I don't see why this myth is still going on.

Suppose it depends on the vet, some do not like using sedation on some dogs or for some procedures - may be that, like me, they consider 20years no more that a short while and are waiting for the drugs to be proved :-)

>they consider 20years no more that a short while and are waiting for the drugs to be proved 

I'd be wondering what other medical advances they were ignoring ...

One of my dogs had to be sedated recently to remove a claw that had broken right back by the pad - he was given a drug to reverse the sedative and although woozy and rather vocal with howling he was able to walk back out to the car when I returned to collect him from the veterinary surgery.

When I've had adult dogs sedated for BAER they've been walking, albeit unsteadily, within 15 minutes of the reversal injection. When they've had GAs it's been a couple of hours before they reached that stage.

Sorry just popping on to the end of this discussion....
With the hip-score and needing micro-chipped....is this going to be the same for elbow scoring as well? 

My boy had a very bad reaction to his microchip and it needed to be removed.....I was told he can't be chipped again as the reaction he had could occur again and was also advised that he be vaccinated in the hip rather than the shoulders. He has his hips scored but not sure how to get round things if he needs a chip for the elbows to get done...

Is getting a tattoo done sore on an adult ?

cheers

>Is getting a tattoo done sore on an adult ?

I had my bitch tattooed at the same time as her litter, and she sat and wagged her tail all the time.

> not sure how to get round things if he needs a chip for the elbows to get done...
>
> Is getting a tattoo done sore on an adult ?
>
>

No worse than vaccination, though you will have to hold him steady.  It is like a pair of pliers with little needles for the numbers, crunch and a flinch and then the rubbing in of the ink (insist on black stays clearer in my experience) sooths the transitory pain.

I was on the dog register site and there is no listing for people to do a tattoo in Northern Ireland.....is there another registry for us over here or will he have to go over to get done? I haven't a clue....

Give the tattoo registry a ring, maybe they can organise something.  Whn is Belfast championship show?  perhaps one of their tattooists is attending?