Hi, I've not been on for a while, my girl was mated earlier this year but we were unlucky, the pup died inside her at about four weeks, everyone here was so supportive and helpful. Well she will be in season soon hopefully and she is looking great, happy healthy etc, the advice i got was not to miss a season, i'm wondering where the opinion lies in if i'll need to pay for a second mating, same breeder/dog etc.

That is up to the owner of the dog, some will charge but most will not, only answer is to ask unless it was in the original contract.

I have contacted the breeder, but i get the impression she wants paying again. I just wanted a few opinions before i take it further. Thanks Nova.

Hi, as Nova says, it is up to the individual Stud dog owner. I think that a lot of Stud dog owners would in these circumtances, offer a free stud, but it is not to be taken for granted that this will be so. The only way to find out is by contacting the owner. It may be worth while anyway,  considering using another Stud, as there may have been an incompatibility issue.

Well, unless it was agreed that you would get a free second set of matings if there were no live births then she has the right to ask for another stud fee. Your bitch was in whelp so it was not the fault of the stud so if the owner so decides there is not a lot you can do about it although stud owners are often understanding about this and only consider there job done when the bitch delivers live whelps.

Perhaps you will have to be up front and direct, ask if you are entitled to a free service and if not could she see her way clear to a reduced fee. It is after all not just the service you are getting for your fee but the handlers experience and time as well.

I never thought about that, i learned on here that the main virus would be herpes, she said she had her dog tested afterwards and he was clear, but vet said it was the females who pass this about?? Not sure how that could be.

I would aways offer a repeat mating if no live puppies were born. I know people say that you pay for the 'service' but I would include live puppies in that service. Ask the stud dog owner outright, if they want paying again - go somewhere else !

I agree, if I was expected to pay again then I would prefer to try a different dog, in case what happened was due to some incompatibility, if a free return is offered it might be worth the chance, as nothing lost (in terms of another stud fee) if she misses/absorbs again.

A lot depends on how high stud fees are in a breed.  If the sum is modest and nowhere near the price of a puppy then I can understand a stud owner expecting payment for the 'service' but when stud fees are the price of a puppy puppies are really expected as part of the deal and many stud owners will only charge if two or more whelps results (we are of course talking about breeds where normal litter size is more than this).

Certainly you should always have the terms of stud use clear at the outset, preferably in writing.

Yeh, Crinklecut (cute name) that's what my principles tell me, there aren't many breeders in our area though, but i'll not be bullied, it's not about the money, but lets be fair, i paid the stud fee, had no live puppies but had to pay for emergency c section. I mean i could've lied to her, and said she just didn't take.

there aren't many breeders in our area though,

That shouldn't even come in to it -you go to the most suitable stud whatever the distance. :) I recently travelled for 7 hours each way to a stud -who then refused to mate my bitch, so I travelled another 3 hours (single journey so twice) to another. That's dog breeding. :)

When my bitch had dead pups I didn't expect the stud owner to give me a free mating as there had been puppies produced, but she said of course I'd get a free mating, and I did. To be honest it's what I would have done as well had it been my dog.

As for herpes it can be either the dog or the bitch.

>there aren't many breeders in our area though,

Don't limit your choice to just your area - in my experience the most suitable dog for a bitch usually lives about 3 hours drive away!

in my experience the most suitable dog for a bitch usually lives about 3 hours drive away!

Oh, at least 3 hours. In fact that's quite near to home Jean LOL.

Yep I have been as far as Finland and in January my Inka is going all the way to New York.

My closest stud has been a hour away, usually it is as you say at least 3 - 8hours drive.

I just wanted a few opinions before i take it further
You paid the stud fee for the service.  The dog did his job and the owner gave you their time to accomodate you and your bitch.
Some stud dog owners will agree at the time of mating that you can have a free second mating if no pups are produced but that's a favour rather than an entitlement.
There may not be many stud dogs in your area but most of us travel from one end of the country to the other to use the dog most suitable for our bitch at any given time.

I wasn't meaning a small area, the breeder i used is 2 hrs away, the breeder our bitch came from i wouldn't use, i did contact a few before i decided on the one i used, diff lines etc. It is a predominantly Scottish breed, so there are a few about, but i've considered most of them. Also i don't want to cause a stir within the breed club as they all know each other very well and are committee members. When i bred EBT we traveled to mid England several times to achieve the mating we had wanted.

Unless you are getting a free or very reduced fee I would go else where, ask for advice from her breeder you don't have to use their stud but they should be able to point you to a stud with compatible lines - going to a stud totally outside your bitches lines is not always the best idea.

That's the problem, because where my girl came from is pretty much puppy farmer (in my opinion) and her mum is blue, some breeders refused to mate her, her first mating produced five boys 4 well marked sables, 1 a bit darker, maybe a few a bit big? They were very greedy. But one was so beautifully marked and perfectly sized. None had any defects and all have excellent temperaments. So i need to be very careful about this. Maybe i'll just leave it, but i so wanted to keep one to show.

I personally would go elsewhere. I know I may be a bit different on this stance, but recently my boy sired a litter of 6, 2 born dead. The owners Vet was rubbish and I was on holiday and couldn't help the owner and she ended up losing another 3. One puppy left so I didn't charge a stud fee. It is not about the money it is about producing healthy pups that you can be proud of.

where my girl came from is pretty much puppy farmer (in my opinion) and her mum is blue, some breeders refused to mate her,
So how is mating her going to benefit the breed?

Most breeders outline the terms of the stud when you go for the mating or prior to this. Was nothing discussed?

I don't know anything about the breed but if others refused to mate her maybe it would be worth considering buying a well bred , correct coloured pedigree and start off in the breed on the right footing?  I know it is a bit off topic but maybe this is telling you something... I am a great believer what is mean't is mean't.   I don't mean this in a bad way but the aim or hope is not to be one OK puppy in a litter of 5 pups but all to be typical in size, breed and correct colour and perhaps one or two showing a spark for showing.    I think your setting yourself up for failure and it is hard enough with the best bitches in the world.

Surely with careful planning and responsible breeding the undesirable strains can be put to the background, i know you can't breed them out as easily as we can breed them in. How many people can honestly say that in their lines history there were no undesirable matings. Not saying that anybody here would commit to such a mating, so please don't take it that way. It just seems very harsh to think that once a line has been tarnished it's finished.
I've checked the "fact" with breeder, she agrees "some breeders think it reasonable that if there are no live pups, whereas she thinks if a bitch is pregnant that's it".

None of this is meant to sound harsh, but I'd agree that perhaps it would be better to buy in a nice little girl instead and start afresh.

You are on a back foot already with mixed colour breeding in the background. In case you're not aware of why this is an issue, if it is not done VERY carefully then merle genes can be 'hidden' and can inadvertently be doubled up in later generations - this can result in puppies who are blind, deaf or born with no eyes, so definitely something to be avoided. It isn't just a matter of a 'messy pedigree' or the wrong colours.

I would also wonder whether you perhaps have the best stud available to you - it rather sounds as if the reputable breeders wouldn't allow their dogs to mate your bitch, but the one who would is perhaps more money-oriented. I believe it is the 'norm' for a repeat mating where there are no live puppies in your breed, so I would be suspicious of a breeder who didn't allow this.

M.

she agrees "some breeders think it reasonable that if there are no live pups, whereas she thinks if a bitch is pregnant that's it".
And that's her perogative, whether you agree with it or not.  You should have asked these questions before the mating took place.

Now I've seen the breed, I agree completely with you Lily.  In this breed, there is absolutely no reason to mate a bitch who is not carefully bred in the first place.
Faults are not easy to breed out.  They frequently reappear and bite you on the bum!  And if some stud dog owners don't want to entertain your bitch, then that tells the story in one. :(
If you care about the breed rather than just producing puppies, then go to Champ Shows for 6 months.  That's where mountains of breed knowledge is to be found.  Take time to learn about the breed and the way that quality Shelties are achieved, and then buy a quality puppy from a knowledgable and experienced breeder and do the breed justice.

You only have to look at the history of the " blue" eye colour in human to find out how a genetic fault can spread :-)

Honestly with the best females around producing dog show pups can be hard to take to the top. You say you want a show puppy then you are going down the wrong route.   It is only the very very lucky who's first bitch became the producer of a successful line. That generally came from a  good breeder often by fluke OR after proper research.

Totally agree M.  Some of the pet type stud dog owners are the worst.  I have trimmed 3 lhasos recently in whelp to the local stud dog.. no joke.. None are typical of the breed I might add.  All 3 owners have to give the pick of the litter as the stud fee and they have been told it will likely be a bitch.. 1 of the bitches has a hernia hole that was so big it turned my stomach when I found it and the owner never even noticed previously. 

I really worry at times.

Just as one other consideration, IF it is indeed a less than reputable stud dog owner, these are also likely to be the type where pedigrees are not entirely accurate - worth considering that it may in fact be your bitch's litter that suffers from doubling up on hidden merle genes.

None of this is meant to run your girl down - I'm sure she's very lovely - but breeding can be a heart break even with the best start.

M.

It is always best to start your line with the best bitch you can get. 

The other option called 'breeding up' means starting with a bitch which is less correct or has mostly indifferent ancestry and mating her to a top class dog that is strong in her weak points.

If your super lucky you may get a puppy with all the improvements in the sex you want well marked and with show attitude.  Great, it may even be a top winner.  The problem is when you come to breed from this one ti won't breed on, as it is just as likely to pass on the faults from it's mothers side plus those from Dad (no animal is perfect) as well as the good points you got.

More likely is that in your first upgrading litter you will get a bitch a little better than her mother. You then repeat the process and if your really lucky in a few more generations you will get quality offspring more consistently, but you will always get the others from time to time.

Now you can mate two champions together with strong well bred pedigrees and not get a top flight animal, but nearly all the pups are likely to be of better quality overall, and when bred from are more likely to produce that quality puppy your striving for.

If you have no access to top quality breeding stock this is the option you have to take but it will take a very long time.  Many breeders lines have taken lifetimes to develop and maintain.  The back yard breeder with there hotchpotch matings can undo generations of hard work.

I started off with a well bred bitch, a bit long in loin, but good enough to win her stud book number, with the odd championship show class, and I would say was a middle placing animal.  She came from a litter with a champion litter brother.

It was two generations before I bred a bitch good enough to win a RCC, (my first generation was two steps forward one back, and on balance was not as good as her mother, but improved on her in some points) and the next generation before I had one god enough to win CC's and got my first champion, that was 3 generations from my well bred bitch.  The overall quality of the puppies in the litters has improved with my knowledge and the quality of the bitches bred from.

My advice would be enjoy your bitch as a companion and use her to learn. 

Show her and see how she does and more importantly note which bitches beat her and why.  You will pretty soon find your drawn and admire particular lines. 

Ask the owners of the stud dogs you particularly like (more importantly the sires of dogs and bitches you admire and do well) which bitches have been booked to them.  Speak to the breeders of the bitches that are going to have litters and see if one of the breeders will consider you for a second pick of their litter (if your really lucky first pick of bitches if they are planning to keep a dog). 

You are better off with someone's second choice puppy with a  great litter than the best of an average litter.

In your research and learning time you will become friendly with the owners/breeders of the stock you admire, lets face it people whose dogs you admire are going to be more than happy to talk to you.

Join the breed clubs and obtain copies of yearbooks/journals for as many years as you can.  These will have photos of winning dogs and the breeds kennels, and you will be able to see how the lines have developed, see pictures of ancestors of current dogs, their show, breeding and health records.

Wow. What an informative post, thank you for taking the time Barbara. Thanks to all help given, it's certainly given me food for thought, i have done a lot of research in breeding, have had some success showing dogs too and a few years ago i was the treasurer for a breed club which covered the whole of Scotland. This wee girl was originally my mums, bought without my blessing (so to speak), she never saw the bitch when pregnant or afterwards, by the age of 9 mths my mum couldn't cope with her, suprised - no, so she wasn't really trained or socialised, and then came to live with me and my family, apart from being a little bit bigger than standard and has a blue mum has no obvious faults, but wouldn't enjoy showing, she is shy and barky. I know that the purpose of breeding is to try to get as close to the breed standard as poss. I know it's not my place to try and undo the wrongs that have been done, and the prospect of doubling up are a reality, the line i used has been true sable for 5 generations at least.

If your determined to start things with your own girl I would be researching her lines more, is her barky nervousness genetic, what are the parents and other relatives like in temperament?.  I am taking health testing background as read (hips, eyes etc).

How many of your girls ancestors can you get to meet and get information and photographs of and speak to their owners or breeders for more info.

Can you be certain that none of her mothers Sable pups were not in fact Merle puppies where the markings are too light to see.

This I believe (can someone in shelties/collies confirm) is possible and the reason merle and Sable should never be bred together, so that inadvertently two dogs that are both genetic merle are not bred together producing health problems.

What reasons were given refusing you stud dog use?

I would certainly be looking for a really top quality stud with generations of producing a quality, healthy stamp of stock, and a dog that stamps himself on the progeny strongly.  Such a dog is most likely to be linebred so again health and temperament must be beyond reproach.

If knowledgeable successful stud dog owners will not want to allow use of their dog on your bitch, you have to accept there must be very good reason.  After all they are refusinf your money, so the only reaason is that they doubt it will give good results and therefore not do their dogs reputation as a top quality producer any good, or that breeding to your bitch is likely to be bad for the breed and their lines.

Hi Terrano0. There are a number of us on here who have experience of your breed's larger colleagues!

Size in Shelties is a problem and I don't know a reputable breeder who would mate a large bitch unless she excelled in all other areas.  "Small" is the first word in the appearance description!  Even by using a good sable line, you'll be very lucky to produce a clear sable with a blue grandparent.  Most sables produced will tend to be a 'muddy' colour - wolf sable and grey being undesirable.  I can't see quality from the small avatar picture but as a breed, it is acceptable for them to be reserved towards strangers but not nervous or shy.  Shelties are making some progress producing CEA clear puppies, but that isn't going to happen and the breed not helped if you don't have a clear line behind your bitch.

I started many years ago with a bitch from a long established breeder who was obsessive about health testing but had learned little about quality over the years.  I took my very plain brood bitch to a quality stud dog, kept the best bitch, and repeated the formula for 4 generations.  I was producing quality males but the bitches, who looked promising at 8 weeks, grew to look like their inferior dams by the time they were 6 months old. :(

I didn't make any progress in the breed until I bought in a 3 year old, well bred bitch who had been lightly shown, from a very successful kennel.  I was told that she would take BOB at Open shows and should get placed at Champ Shows.  I bought her for my 10 year old, keen daughter and it took her 3 years to win 4 CCs and a Res CC with her.  She is behind all the puppies that I've bred since, collecting a few more CCs along the way with various decendents, very good for a small kennel who has never kept more than 4 bitches.

I learned the hard way that in order to produce quality puppies, you need a bitch with quality ancestors behind her - or be VERY lucky! :)

Thanks again, there isn't much info on the mums history, i've traced her sire back, all sable, the breeder who refused to mate her prob did it for the right reasons, he knew instantly when i mentioned where our girl had come from. But i also felt that he wasn't approachable in the first instance. I am pretty sure none of the littermates were blues.

there isn't much info on the mums history
If you don't know about the Dam's ancestors, then it's impossible to choose a compatible stud dog because you need to not only assess the bitch's virtues and faults but to know what she might be carrying recessively too. :(

I would be running in the opposite direction from the stud dog owner who took your money and counting my blessings that I hadn't produced any puppies.... :(

Couldn't agree anymore with what everyone has said. :-)

There is some great advice here and I have been in your shoes and know the frustration and desire to get on that you must feel. I bought a nice little bitch (I thought) about four years ago and took her to shows. We enjoyed it and won some prizes but not too much. I was given the same advice Brainless has given you and followed it although it was hard. I now have two lovely bitches. One from a top class kennel and one who is good but what lies behind may not be quite as good but many strong dogs conformationally in the background. I know I have done the right thing but it was hard and it seems to have taken me years to even get to what I have now which is really just a strong starting point but I am confident it has been the best way to go.